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High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:13

Question: listening to the Satanic outakes I am amazed again by the guitar riff of "Citadel". But what is that high pitched sound on the 2 nd 4 of the riff? I thought it was a harpsichord by Nicky Hopkins, but I am totally not sure. Love the Mellotron' mandolins by Brian by the way!

Mathijs

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Baboon Bro ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:19

Feels good to agree with you, Mathijs.
Those sessions is a Great Treasure.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:25

On take 25-31, at around 3:30 you hear jagger speak, and someone is testing that high pitched sound. I guess Jagger is providing that high pitched sound on the guitar riff, and it sounds like he hits a glass bottle with a piece of metal, drenched in echo.

Mathijs

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:28

I think it's a high note from a glockenspiel or something similar with some groovy echo on it. smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-03 22:43 by His Majesty.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:32

BTW Brian's mellotron-mandolin part is fantastic, but wow, check out what Nicky does on Harpischord over it... I think it's the last take!

He was so @#$%& good!!! smiling smiley

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Baboon Bro ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:37

Gonna listen too,soon,just gotta work & put the semi-older kids to bed first.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Hound Dog ()
Date: May 3, 2007 22:50

I know exactly the sound you are talking about and always wondered myself. Figured it was some sort of weird bell since they were messing around with so many instruments then.

The Satanic box is a very interesting set. Gives you an idea of how experimental they were being during these sessions. I think some of the organ work on these are great but so much of it never made it onto anything on the album, or at least that sound didn't. The quality of these sessions are probably the best out there besides the Voodoo sessions. Although you either needs some acid or a lot of patience and time to make it through all 8 cds.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: LA FORUM ()
Date: May 3, 2007 23:12

HAd they produced this record a bit heavier, a biut more like Hendrix would have done it and left out Sing this song all together ( like it cause it's them and it sets a mopod, but it's a crappy song) this could have been the Stones going undergruond.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 3, 2007 23:18

Basically, they needed a producer! smiling smiley

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: casinoboogie ()
Date: May 3, 2007 23:25

For what its worth, there is not a more perfect album in the world to listen to if all you want to do is chill out with a bit of a smoke.

Picked up some really interesting sounds on Citadel...its very smart musically especially the mellotron in the verses

I dont know about you guys but i adore "In Another Land", really surprising lyrically...quite other wordly "...how i came to be here, when im fast asleep in bed"
There's some really groovy lead guitar Keith on "See What Happens", not to mention that freaky voice part at the very end as it fades out...weird!
The Lantern is just amazing...that ethereal opening that fades into a sort of bluesy number and then back to psychedelia.

Id love to get my hands on the outtakes and such

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: ChelseaDrugstore ()
Date: May 4, 2007 01:46

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Basically, they needed a producer! smiling smiley


Totally agree. IMO every Stonesalbum that ended up a bit weaker is to be blamed on either no producer or a very weak one.
(Dirty Work is not part of this equation)

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: it's_all_wrong ()
Date: May 4, 2007 02:00

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Totally agree. IMO every Stonesalbum that ended up
> a bit weaker is to be blamed on either no producer
> or a very weak one.
> (Dirty Work is not part of this equation)


Steve Lillywhite's production of Dirty Work was a big part of what ruined it.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: May 9, 2019 19:10

So did we ever find out what that high pitched sound was?

To me it sounds like a Tibetan bell struck against a pane of glass. Very disorientating but very effective.

I wonder who the hell thought of that? Brian?

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: May 9, 2019 19:19

Just listened to the song, to me the high pitched sound is coming from Keith's guitar throughout the song, but I could be wrong.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Date: May 9, 2019 19:25


Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Date: May 9, 2019 19:27

Track Talk: [iorr.org]

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: CindyC ()
Date: May 9, 2019 19:28

as a bonus, glockenspiel is a really fun word to say

I know the sound too, and I like how it sometimes appears where you expect, but sometimes it doesn't. they trick you.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: May 9, 2019 19:36

Quote
CindyC
as a bonus, glockenspiel is a really fun word to say

I know the sound too, and I like how it sometimes appears where you expect, but sometimes it doesn't. they trick you.

Good to see you back on here Cindy. One of the originals.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: CindyC ()
Date: May 9, 2019 19:46

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
CindyC
as a bonus, glockenspiel is a really fun word to say

I know the sound too, and I like how it sometimes appears where you expect, but sometimes it doesn't. they trick you.

Good to see you back on here Cindy. One of the originals.

Hi SD! Thanks for the welcome back message! Hope all is well!

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Date: May 9, 2019 20:00

It follows the guitar so perfect that it must be coming from there; some feedback. Seems like it comes when it's a chord with open strings.
It does sound a lot like a bottle being struck w/ reverb.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: May 9, 2019 20:10

I used to think the sound came from the guitar, but reading these comments I'm not so sure anymore.
To me the song is on the same level as Jumping Jack Flash. One of their first heavier 'rock' tracks that sounded more modern, heralding the 70s as it were, as opposed to the very 60s sounding production values of, say, Aftermath.
Half of Their Satanic Majesties Request I really like, the other half not so much.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: Bjorn ()
Date: May 9, 2019 20:30

It doesn´t come from a guitar. Glockenspiel is the word, I guess. I have never questioned that...I thought it was pretty obvious. Ping!!!

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: May 9, 2019 21:40

[iorr.org] - What Mathijs came up with a few years ago:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Been listening to all 146 outtakes of Citadel, and there’s some hints…

From Request and Requires:

Take 5 is the first one with mellotron and the ping sound. Take 5e has Richards adjusting the volume of the guitar, and an adjustment to the ping sound seems to be made. Take 6 has the ping and hard struck E chord so on time, the sound does seem to be induced by the guitar signal. On the intro of take 16 it seems like the ping sound is responding to the drums, not to the guitar. Just before take 22 Johns ask Keith something I can’t understand, the response is ‘yeah’ and he opens the volume of the guitar, which seems to induce the ping sound.

From Satanic Box:
In take 20 (actually 19), at 1.05 Keith makes a timing mistake on the guitar. The ping makes the exact same mistake. At 1.33 (take 20) the same double mistake happens and the ping is gone for some time. At 2.39 Glyn Johns ask ‘Keith, are you still doing that ping?’. Keith: ‘yeah’, then strikes guitar lightly and the ping sound is there again.

So, Keith does the ping for sure. Another indication is the timing of the ping: it coincides so exact with the timing of Richards, including mistakes, that it seems impossible for another musician to induce the ping sound. Then, the ping mostly coincides with Richards’ downstrokes on the 2 and 4, but whenever a more difficult part is played by Richards, the ping starts to miss the beat several times. At the start of take 25, Charlie says to Keith ‘you gotta start the kick now’ and keith answers ‘yeah’ with a ping.

Concerning the sound of the ping: it sounds like a dampened glockenspiel, but does a Glockenspiel have such high E? And, the sound of the ping is exactly the same on all takes –same length, same attack, same presence. Only the volume changes. This might rule out a manually struck instrument. Then, on Keith’s guitar there’s tremolo and slap delay. The ping has the same slap delay. Most likely the tremolo is from the Conqueror, the slap delay from the studio board. The slap delay from guitar and ping is exactly the same in timing (about 25 ms). So either the ping is picked up through the same microphone as the guitar, or both the guitar and ping sound are routed through the same delay machine.

My conclusion so far is that the ping sound is induced by the guitar signal. It is not played ‘manually’ by anyone, there’s evidence that the ping comes from Keith. I have no idea what the effect is that is being used –there where sound generators already, there where tape machines like the mellotron. How it works is unclear to me, but it might be controlled by the volume of the guitar, added with some basic settings like on a tape delay at the time: in fourths or eights, or in milliseconds.

But I am quite positive that it is not any real instrument like a glockenspiel played by anyone other than Richards.

Mathijs


Aha! The conclusion appears to be quite right -a signal induced by the Richards and the guitar, and not a real instrument but a gizzmo. I do not know exactly where this info comes from, it apperently is missing from Stones gear:

For the ‘Citadel’ sessions, Keith used primarily his Gibson Les Paul Custom Black Beauty, his blue Fender Telecaster, and occasionally his Gibson ‘Non-Reverse’ Firebird VII. The ‘pinging’ or ‘ringing’ sound heard on the tremolo guitar track was made by a metallic, tubular hand-held device. The device could best be described as looking like a thinner version of a Danelectro lipstick pickup, approximately 2 & 3/4 to 3 inches in width with a thin metal loop attached, a standard male guitar cord intact on one end, the cord roughly 5 feet in length (which plugged into the guitar), while the other end was female where a standard guitar cord would plug into it to an amp. The loop went over the middle or ring finger and held the metal tube firmly along the upper palm of the strumming hand, synonymous to the principle of the novelty ‘handshake buzzer’ (See Diagram) The high-pitched ‘ping’ or ‘ring’ sound was produced when the device was brought close to the pickup and touched across the strings after a chord was struck ringing loudest when flush across all strings which was sometimes difficult to achieve when using a pick as your hand had to open almost flat to a degree.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Date: May 9, 2019 21:53

Well that is whAt I hear too; it follows the guitar exactly.
I have heard the engineer comment, but I still think it is feedback/overtone/ from open strings at volume in the amp.

I have been corrected three times today on other threads. I need this one, LOL

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: CindyC ()
Date: May 9, 2019 22:16

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
I have been corrected three times today on other threads. I need this one, LOL

I'm rooting for ya!

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: usetobesampeg ()
Date: May 9, 2019 23:59

I’m 99% sure it’s a bell, when that LP was new my friends folks had a small brass bell almost like a small Ship’s bell that looked like it came from North Africa & my friend would strike it while we listened to “Citadel”, it made the exact same sound!

BTW Some Band I think called the Tumblin’ Dice did a great cover of “Citadel” when I first heard it I thought it was an out-take or a live run-through,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-05-10 00:00 by usetobesampeg.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: May 10, 2019 02:23

This is the sound of a glockenspiel:

[www.youtube.com]

The high pitched sound is Keith creating feedback from his guitar, like a screeching sound:

[www.youtube.com]

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 10, 2019 15:15

Keep in mind Brian and Keith got a few prototype effects from Vox/Jennings sometime between the end of 1966 and the 1967 European tour.

Page talks of Brian having a pedal at the ADOM soundtrack session that gave an effect like a shotgun for example.

It's most likely something that Keith has either on his hand as pr Greg Prevost comment, or attached to the guitar that produces that sound.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Date: May 10, 2019 16:05

Quote
His Majesty
Keep in mind Brian and Keith got a few prototype effects from Vox/Jennings sometime between the end of 1966 and the 1967 European tour.

Page talks of Brian having a pedal at the ADOM soundtrack session that gave an effect like a shotgun for example.

It's most likely something that Keith has either on his hand as pr Greg Prevost comment, or attached to the guitar that produces that sound.

I have used such a gizmo,like the one described; everything he says rings true, except IMO the actual sound. But who knows what they had going on set-up wise. The relative difficulty in maneuvering that thing actually makes sense with what I'm hearing, in that it seems to ring mainly with certain chord.

Re: High pitched sound in "Citadel" ?
Posted by: audun-eg ()
Date: May 11, 2019 12:46

As a guitarplayer myself, I know you can’t control feedback from the guitar that precisely.

[www.reverbnation.com]

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