Quite agree. there's no way that was ever the same guitar.
And apologies if this has been covered before...but can you help me with this one ?

Can you confirm that this guitar was one of the 7 or 8% of "bursts" with factory fitted Bigsby ? Good recent pictures reveal the plugs or dowels where a stop tail has been fitted at some point in the guitar's history. I haven't seen any good enough old pictures to spot the presence or absence of plugs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-10 10:40 by Spud.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, I don't think Clapton is using Keith's
> burst in '66. The pickups are uncovered, there's
> not stripe pattern on Clapton's burst, and
> Clapton's burst has lots of wear on the backside's
> edge, under the lower horn, that I have never seen
> on the Keith burst.
>
> Mathijs

I don't think it's the same guitar either. Take a closer look though, the bigsby burst Clapton is playing has both pickup covers on.

Full frontal colour pics would be much more helpful of course.

Spud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you confirm that this guitar was one of the 7
> or 8% of "bursts" with factory fitted Bigsby ?
> Good recent pictures reveal the plugs or dowels
> where a stop tail has been fitted at some point in
> the guitar's history. I haven't seen any good
> enough old pictures to spot the presence or
> absence of plugs.

Hi Spud. Most Les Pauls that shipped from the Gibson factory that had Bigsbys fitted also had the holes for the tail piece studs drilled out, as was probably the case with the Keith/MickT Burst. Only a very few had Bigsbys installed without the stud holes being drilled. The Bigsbys were added for custom orders and most of the bodies already had the holes drilled when the orders were received but if an order came in and a body that had not had the holes drilled was available then the Bigsby would be added without the stud holes. I don't know how may of these were shipped, in fact no one knows for sure, but the percentage is almost certainly less than 7 to 8%. (based on the information currently avaialable that is.)

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> Still, one believes what one wants I suppose.
> <<
>
> but ... why wouldn't someone involved with selling
> that guitar not want to believe
> that it was also owned by Mick T? it adds pretty
> considerably to its value, after all.

I wish I knew Ms Sssoul. The article was not well researched even though the guitar's history is fairly well documented here and at the Les Paul Forum but I have no clear history of it after it was nicked from Nellcote.

ChrisM honey, Mathijs clarified pretty well a few posts ago
why a dealer would prefer to "overlook" this part of the history.

it truly is weird, though, that that article seems to be pointing at Phil Carsons -
at least the way i read it, it makes it sound like he "liberated" it from the band's possession
in 1974 or whenever they said it was.

Pardon me Ms Sssoul, the clarification I was curious about was what happened to the guitar after it ws as stolen. I can certainly understand the owner wanting to present its history as a bit murky until Septetmber 1967 for the purposes ofselling it but it seems to me its ownership and history can be easily proven up until 1971 (at least by me.) Curiouser and curiouser....

smile: i don't quite follow you, ChrisM, and i would really like to!
how come its history up to september 67 would need to remain murky?
the part that's problematic in reselling it is (as Mathijs notes) the fact that Mick T's 59 sunburst LP
was reported as stolen from Nellcote, so it's the fact that this one = that same guitar that needs to be kept murky.
in other words the uncomfortable part of its history starts when Mick T bought it in late 1967.
its earlier history isn't a problem ... or ... what am i miscomprehending? [passing popcorn]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-11 10:21 by with sssoul.

Ms Sssoul, I'd like to understand me too! I meant to write "after" September 1967! D'oh! (Thanks for the popcorn!)

Thanks for the comments on the Bigsby Chris. I think 7 or 8% might be high too..but that percentage come from a good source that I don't feel qualified to argue with. ;^)
A good proportion have certainly sported a Bigsby at some time...judging from the tell tale screw holes seen on many examples.

Hi Spud. I've been fascinated with Sunburt Les Pauls for over 30 years and have read more a than a few books about them, talked to their owners and have played a few (wish I could afford one!) so I know more than some, less than others, about them. If you are or anyone else are interested in learning more then check out the Les Paul forum (www.lespaulforum.com) or Iwanade Yasuhiko's 'Beauty of the Burst" Both of these have Stones related info by the way!

Haven't checked out the Les Paul Forum for ages. Must visit again soon.
I have been fortunate enough to play two original bursts. [A very good friend of mine is a world respected luthier who actually gets his hands on these icons ! otherwise I wouldn't get within a hundred miles ;^) ]
A 1960 which I got my mits on was literally a dream...one of nicest guitars I've ever experienced the magic of. A '58 he also had through his workshop was disappointingly ordinary in it's character and response. Just goes to show that there's a lot of pot look with guitars. The gods choose the gifted ones I think..and this applies to old and new alike.

A local guitar shop was doing a restoration on a 1959 which I got my mits on. Lovely, lovely guitar once the restoratio nwas done. As soon as soon as they post pics of the restoration process I'll post the link at the Les Paul forum (I'm Biggles58 there) The other one I got to play was a 1960 that belonged to Mick Mars of Motely Crew. A sweet guitar that was too. (My '58 reissue never felt the same after that!) The asking price was $146,000, which is low for a burst, but it had had a headstcok repair, grovers installed, non original PU rings and guard and two of the control pots had been replaced. Still, it sold!

All I ever played is a '57 Goldtop, and that was 'just' a good, vintage guitar. If a '57 reissue for the custom shop costs $3000 I would pay $5000 for the '57 I played. Of course, the '57 is worth over 100K.

I've played many vintage Juniors and Specials, 335's, Tele's and Strats, and in my very humble opinion the guitars produced today at the custom shops of Fender and Gibson are really just as good....Give these instruments 20 years and they are 'vintage' as well.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Give these instruments 20 years and they
> are 'vintage' as well.

Like your R9 and my R8 I hope!

well, that wesellguitars site has been updating its description of Keith's 59 LP: [www.gbase.com]

i hope that link leads directly to the page with the description and additional photos,
but in case they change it again, here's the current text (with a couple of typos fixed) -
curiouser and curiouser is all i can say. :E

Model Name: Keith Richards original '59 Les Paul Standard
Case: Hard
Color: sunburst
Condition: Very Good
Price: Call for price!

Description: 'We Sell Guitars Limited' are pleased to be able to offer for sale what we believe to be
the most important Les Paul Standard in modern rock history. This is a very well known documented guitar
that has some incredible provenance and has made its eternal mark on the pages of rock'n'roll,
most notably with The Rolling Stones. In recent months the complete history of this incredible guitar
has come to light and a recent feature in 'Guitarist Magazine' last month brought to light the original owner.

History: The guitar is an original 1959 Les Paul Standard that was purchased new in March 1961
from 'Farmers Music Store' in Luton, United Kingdom by John Bowen. John played with 'Mike Dean & The Kinsmen'
and he had a Bigsby Vibrato fitted at 'Selmers' in London before trading the guitar in there
for a Gretsch Country Gentleman in late 1962. The guitar was then purchased by Keith Richards
who was playing rhythm guitar in a little known outfit called 'The Rolling Stones'.
Keith Richards used this guitar extensively in the early days of 'The Rolling Stones'
and it was seen regularly until 1966 when Keith began to favour a Les Paul Custom.
Appearances on 'The Ed Sullivan Show', 'Ready Steady Go' and classic songs like
'The Last Time', 'Satisfaction', 'Little Red Rooster' have this guitar all over them.
There are many great photographs of Keith and the guitar and as Keith was the first major pop star
to use a 'Burst' he was probably singlehandedly responsible for inspiring Clapton and Page
to both pick up Les Pauls. Keith owned and used this guitar way before Clapton had one, before Jeff Beck,
before Peter Green, before Jimmy Page, Mike Bloomfield, Joe Walsh, Billy Gibbons, Duane Allman
etc etc. (need we go on?) Keith sold the guitar to Mick Taylor in 1966 when Taylor had replaced Peter Green
in 'John Mayal & The Bluesbreakers' (who in turn replaced Eric Clapton). 'The Bluesbreakers'
classic British Blues sound was forged when Clapton plugged a 'Burst' into a Marshall JTM45 combo
and Peter Green followed suit, later controversially selling his 'Burst' to Gary Moore in 2006.
Taylor stood in for Clapton when he failed to show for a gig one night and ended up
playing Clapton's own Les Paul so it was inevitable that the young Taylor would go for the same guitar
and he exclusively played the Les Paul until he joined The Rolling Stones three years later.
Before Led Zeppelin Jimmy Page was a red hot session musician who cut his teeth on
a 3 pickup Les Paul Custom with fitted Bigsby. When the guitar was stolen he didn't replace it
until he purchased the famous 'Burst' he still owns from Joe Walsh of 'The Eagles'.
It is possible that Jimmy considered buying the 'Keith Burst' from Richards
in an effort to replace his - we aren't sure - but we are sure that Jimmy used the guitar
on at least one mid-60s recording session (pictured above). Eric Clapton used the 'Keith Burst' in 1966.
His original 'Bluesbreakers' 1960 Les Paul was stolen in Manchester in 1966 and obviously
missing the tone of a 'Burst' he borrowed the guitar from either Keith or Mick Taylor
when 'Cream' played at the Windsor Jazz & Blues Festival alongside 'John Mayal & The Bluesbreakers'.
Maybe Keith sold it to Eric then Eric sold it to Mick? Either way there are various photographs
taken of Clapton with this very guitar at the concert. In the summer of 1969 Taylor was invited
to the 'Let It Bleed' recording sessions by The rolling Stones. What he didn't realise
was that he was being 'auditioned' to replace Brian Jones. Taylor made his live debut with the band
at the famous Hyde Park concert in July 1969 after the shocking premature death of Stones guitarist Brian Jones.
The concert was immortalised by Granada Television who filmed the concert and released it
as 'The Stones In The Park'. Although the guitar wasn't seen during the gig it was filmed backstage
in the bands dressing room where Taylor is seen playing the guitar again. The guitar is next seen
in the hands of Mick Jagger (pictured above) during later recording sessions and it was later used
by Keith on the 1969 Rolling Stones Tour of America, most notably at the infamous free concert
held at The Altamont Speedway where a young man was murdered in front of the stage.
Keith Richards straps on the guitar for the second time during 'Honky Tonk Women'
and the concert is again documented in the film 'Gimme Shelter'. The guitar is last seen
in the hands of The Stones at the turn of the 70s where its disappearance is shrouded
in mystery and controversy. Rumour has it that the guitar was stolen from 'The Marquee' in 1971
during the 'Farewell Tour' of that year but Dave Brewis of 'Rock Stars Guitars' recounts a story
he heard from the next owner, Cosmo Verrico, who played guitar with 'The Heavy Metal Kids'
who were signed to Atlantic Records alongside The Stones. The story goes that a Stones representative
gave the guitar to Cosmo to replace one that was stolen. What is definite is that Cosmo did own the guitar
until 1974 when he sold the guitar to Bernie Marsden of 'Whitesnake'. Bernie owned the guitar
for a little over a week. He sold it to guitar enthusiast Mike Jopp and thought he had done well
when he made £50 profit. Mike Jopp owned the guitar until 2003 when it was sold to a private investor
being brokered by 'Rock Stars Guitars'. The 'Keith Burst' was next seen in late 2004
when it was offered up for auction by Christie's in New York. The guitar failed to meet reserve
possibly due to poor publicity and surrounding controversy where rumour has it that
a representative of Keith Richards laid claim to the guitar. This claim wasn't followed through
and Christie's let the guitar go to auction but the vintage boom had not yet happened
as original 1959 Les Pauls that are today $500,000 - $750,000 were then $150,000.
A private collector purchased the guitar in 2006 and spent considerable time and expense
in 'restoring' the guitar to its original condition.

Physical History: When the guitar last changed hands it had a couple of issues which are as follows:
The original Kluson tuners were replaced with Grovers. This was most probably done by Mick Taylor
for tuning stability. The pickup covers were also missing and the Bigsby unit wasn't the original one
that was fitted by Selmers in 1962. When Cosmo Verrico owned the guitar he confirmed
that he removed the Bigsby preferring a stop tailpiece and removed the bridge pickup and pickup covers.
This was the early 70s and this was all the trend. Some people believed the pickups sounded better
with the covers removed. Cosmo admits he accidentally cracked the headstock during a gig
and continued to play the guitar in that condition until Mike Jopp purchased it.
Mike confirms that he got Dick Knight to repair the crack professionally. Dick Knight
was a London based guitar builder and expert repairman. Interestingly enough, Dick also repaired
the damaged headstock of Jimmy Page's Les Paul. Mike also re-fitted a period Bigsby
and kept the guitar in this condition until he sold it in 2003. The current owner has since purchased
the original Bigsby from Cosmo and fitted an accurate replica pickguard and original style pickup covers
but decided to keep the Grovers as they were present the last time Keith Richards played the guitar.
All other parts are original and present and correct including the pickup rings.
The guitar was last delivered in a late 60s black Les Paul case. The current owner has recently purchased
an original brown 'Burst' case from 'The Hard Rock Cafe' that accompanied another Les Paul owned by Keith Richards.

Pricing: At the end of the day this is an original 1959 Les Paul Standard. It is the holy grail
of the electric guitar world and one of the most coveted instruments in the world
as well as being the most valuable. We appreciate that putting a price on such a significant piece
of rock'n'roll history is extremely hard and considering the documented pedigree of the guitar
and the fact it has been used in the hands of at least four iconic guitar players
we believe it to be the most important 'Burst' to ever surface in the public domain.
'We Sell Guitars' are offering the guitar exclusively at the personal request of the current owner.
Please contact us via the following for further info and pricing.

We Sell Guitars Limited +44(0)777 926 5314 www.wesellguitars.com

>> The guitar [traded in to Selmers] was then purchased by Keith Richards <<

i guess that is possible, but what is it based on??
the sidebar to the Guitarist article that Spud gallantly scanned for us doesn't seem particularly conclusive,
but ... okay, the earliest photos/footage i have of Keith with his 59 LP are from the second US tour
in the autumn of 64, which might be a reason to wonder if he really did acquire it on his first trip to the US
(which is the story i know and love) - but i can't imagine Keith not buying at least one guitar
on his first US tour, especially since for all he knew at the time, there might not be a second opportunity.

>> Keith sold the guitar to Mick Taylor in 1966 <<

late 1967, no?

>> Eric Clapton used the 'Keith Burst' in 1966 ... when Cream played at the Windsor Jazz & Blues Festival <<

is this definite? do they have confirmation?

>> Although the guitar wasn't seen during the [Hyde Park] gig <<

yes it was - it's in the film.

>> The guitar is next seen in the hands of Mick Jagger (pictured above) during later recording sessions <<

i suppose they mean the 1970 Stargroves photos, although i don't see any on the page.

>> Keith Richards straps on the guitar for the second time during Honky Tonk Women
and the [Altamont] concert is again documented in the film Gimme Shelter. <<

it's the MSG rendition of HTW that's in the film, but ... never mind!

>> its disappearance is shrouded in mystery and controversy. Rumour has it that
the guitar was stolen from The Marquee in 1971 <<

... am i the only one who's never heard that rumour? i thought it was stolen from Nellcote.

>> rumour has it that a representative of Keith Richards laid claim to the guitar.
This claim wasn't followed through <<

now that is interesting, if it's any righter than the rest of what they've printed here.
didn't someone around here once state that Mick Taylor exhibited no interest in recovering this guitar
when it crept back into the market? ahh yes, here it is - it was Mathijs, on page 4 of the Mick T's Guitars thread:

>> I personally have told Taylor about this guitar being in the possession of [a] collector,
but at that time he wasn’t interested in it anymore. <<

so ... [scratching head] ... no, never mind - this is all getting mighty convoluted. i'll shut up now!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-18 10:49 by with sssoul.

They have edited some of that now... I think thanks to posts at the LPF where they tried to be smart arses and say those clapton pics are from 1967... anyway, some provable basics are wrong, ie Page's custom wasn't stolen till 1970/71. :/

But What guitar did MT use for his very early days in The Bluebreakers? Did he have the Keith burst before his SG?

>> They have edited some of that now <<

really?! i just copied/pasted that this morning. which bits have they changed?

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> They have edited some of that now <<
>
> really?! i just copied/pasted that this morning.
> which bits have they changed?

It now says...

>The concert was immortalised by Granada Television who filmed the concert and released it as 'The Stones In The Park'. Taylor used the guitar to play 'No Expectations' and it was filmed backstage in the bands dressing room where Taylor is seen playing the guitar again.<

oh good - if they're trying to sell a guitar for a million dollars based on provenance,
it would definitely behoove them to get the easy bits right -
and then to give you LPF folks a fact-finding percentage.

let me know if they come up with anything to substantiate the claims that Keith bought this guitar in London,
and that this is the LP Clapton had in 66, okay?

anyway it's interesting that they point out that it's "rumoured" to be stolen -
although the Marquee never came into it in any rumours i ever heard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-17 20:38 by with sssoul.

Your Majesty, Mick Taylor had a Sunburst before he bought Keith's but it was stolen in summer of 1967 which is why he went looking for another. The "Crusade" album was recorded using this guitar. The only pic I have seen of it is in the inside sleeve of John Mayll's "Looking Back" album. As to the SG, he bought it in late 1968 if I remember rightly, a year or so after the Keith Burst.

By the way, an excellent resource of the history of the British Blues is "Strange Brew; Eric Clapton the British Blues Boom 1965-1970." It is written in chronological fashion and amongst other things provides details on when guitars where bought, lost and/or stolen and this includes the guitars mentioned above. It is an excellent and very detailed book and I highly recommend it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-17 23:05 by ChrisM.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> let me know if they come up with anything to
> substantiate the claims that Keith bought this
> guitar in London,
> and that this is the LP Clapton had in 66, okay?
>
> anyway it's interesting that they point out that
> it's "rumoured" to be stolen -
> although the Marquee never came into it in any
> rumours i ever heard.

I've asked what their stand point is on the 'stolen' issue. They're obviously reading the comments on LPF as they directly replied to one of my posts.

Here's the thread: [www.lespaulforum.com]

ChrisM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your Majesty, Mick Taylor had a Sunburst before he
> bought Keith's but it was stolen in summer of 1967
> which is why he went looking for another. The
> "Crusade" album was recorded using this guitar.
> The only pic I have seen of it is in the inside
> sleeve of John Mayll's "Looking Back" album. As
> tothe SG, he bought it in late 1968 if I remember
> rightly, a year or so after the Keith Burst.
>
> By the way, an excellent resource of the history
> of the British Blues is "Strange Brew; Eric
> Claption the British Blues Boom 1965-1970." It is
> written in chronological fashion and amongst other
> things provides details on when guitars where
> bought, lost and/or stolen and this includes the
> guitars mentioned above. It is an excellent and
> very detailed book and I highly recommend it!


Thanks for that. Hah I have that book, best give it a proper read!

>> They're obviously reading the comments on LPF as they directly replied to one of my posts. <<

smile: and corrected the Windsor festival date in their description, after "correcting" you about it.
well done - you people really should get a fact-finders' fee.
let me know if they say anything enlightening about the legal aspects ...

okay my dear patient learned & good-lookin Guitar Connoisseurs: this is bugging me!

the wesellguitars site says:

"The guitar is an original 1959 Les Paul Standard that was purchased new in March 1961
from 'Farmers Music Store' in Luton, United Kingdom by John Bowen. John played with 'Mike Dean & The Kinsmen'
and he had a Bigsby Vibrato fitted at 'Selmers' in London before trading the guitar in there
for a Gretsch Country Gentleman in late 1962. The guitar was then purchased by Keith Richards"

i sure hope the dealer has more evidence of that than the sidebar to the Guitarist magazine article,
which i hereby reproduce for your viewing convenience (thank you Spud!):


- Guitarist september 2007

now ... [scratching head] ... there are a few different problems with all this:

~ the Guitarist sidebar seems to imply that Keith bought this guitar shortly after the first guy traded it in,
in late 1962 - but he didn't didn't didn't! in late 1962 Keith could barely afford the payments
on that Harmony Meteor that he played steadily until mid 1964. so if Keith got the LP at Selmers,
when exactly is this supposed to have happened? could someone on the LP Forum ask over there,
please please, since the dealer is reading/responding to your questions?

~ the story that i know & love - that Keith acquired the LP on the first US tour - has a similar problem:
if he got it then, why don't we see it in any photos or footage until the october 25th 1964 Ed Sullivan Show?
at any rate i don't have any photos of Keith with the LP that i can positively identify
as being from earlier in 1964 than the second US tour - do any of you have any?
of course the first US tour and the period just after it weren't the most highly photographed phases of his career,
but if Keith had this guitar then, you'd think it would turn up somewhere.
instead, what we see him using all over the place during/after the first US tour is that Epiphone Casino.

~ now ... i know Keith said just after the first US tour that he'd spent his money on good guitars,
but could it be that it was the Epiphone that he acquired on (or just before) that trip?
i have the impression that Epiphones were pretty easy to find in the UK at that time,
not something you'd need to go to the States for ... but what do i know. :E

~ and more to the point: if he got the LP any time before the second US tour ... why was he hiding it?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-18 13:38 by with sssoul.

There does seem to be some disparity as to where and when Keith bought this guitar but I find it hard to believe that he bought in 1962 and in England for the very reasons you mention Ms Sssoul. I'll have to check but I had always thoguht he bought it during the second US tour. This Sherlock Holmes stuff is fun. Now have some popcorn! (or sun flower seeds if you prefer.)

>> I find it hard to believe that he bought in 1962 and in England <<

i don't so much mind him buying it in England just before the second US tour,
if there's evidence to support that, but he definitely didn't buy it in 62 - or in 63 either.
it's 100% outlandish. i wrote to wesellguitars and pointed out the need to clarify that bit of the description -
it seriously erodes their credibility to suggest that Keith owned a Gibson Les Paul in 62/63
and meanwhile played all his gigs and made all his records on a Harmony Meteor
that he bought on the hire-purchase plan for 80 GBP. i hope they listen to me -
it would be great to get this guitar's biographical details properly sorted out after all these years.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-19 00:14 by with sssoul.

Thanks for your efforts Ms Sssoul. Between us here at IORR, the posters at the LP forum and any serious guitar historians and buyers the sellers must be inundated with e-mails.

Regarding buying the guitar in England I didn't have a "problem" with Keith buying it there but rahter him having the brass in 1962 while living in England. Sometimes I don't state myself clearly!

>>it's 100% outlandish....
to suggest that Keith owned a Gibson Les Paul in 62/63
and then proceeded to play all his gigs and make all his records on a Harmony Meteor
that he bought on the hire-purchase plan for 80 GBP<<

that's a strong point, not only Keith - but eyery guitarplayer wouldn't leave his brandnew, great guitar in a closet for 2 years or what.

I think it's easy to mis-remember dates etc, but that doesn't mean the selmers story is wrong. Perhaps the guitar was in the shop for a few years, who knows!?

WSG's is apparently going to put up a photo of the original owner with the guitar! They are being very open to questions about the guitar and replying promptly, which is great.

Not meaning to offend anyone, but the whole bigsby burst/1st USA tour doesn't make sense bearing in mind the length of time it took for the guitar to start seeing some stage use etc.

>> every guitar player wouldn't leave his brand new, great guitar in a closet for 2 years or what. <<

yeah, it's impossible to imagine - plus which as ChrisM notes there's no way Keith had the money at that time.
obviously it wasn't a classic vintage guitar at the time, but still! late 62/63 was the Edith Grove Era -
those cats were seriously short on income.

>> I think it's easy to mis-remember dates etc, but that doesn't mean the Selmers story is wrong. <<

yep, they could have the "where" part of the story right, despite being wrong about the "when".

>> Not meaning to offend anyone, but <<

smile: i hope you don't mean me! i "know and love" the version wherein Keith got the LP on the first US tour,
but that's always seemed "off" to me, since the guitar doesn't seem to have put in any appearances until the second US tour.

meanwhile, as long as we're wondering things, pondering timelines, etc:
i wonder why Keith (apparently!) retired this guitar so soon after he bought it -
it only turns up in photos/footage for a bit over a year.
smile: this Sherlock Holmes routine can be fun - but can't we just ask Keith? :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-18 23:59 by with sssoul.