Great points Smokey, pmk & terry.


It is really indefensible for Richards and or Jagger to rip off their fellow musicians on songwriting credits.

Taylor & Wyman aren't the only ones to make this charge. Ry Cooder maintained that Keith Richards would avoid him. Cooder would jam in the studio by himself but Richards kept the tapes rolling. The next thing he knew Richards copied his riffs and put them on LIB. I've heard this is the same thing he did to Ron Wood on IORR.




Jack Knife: Mick Taylor has great songs on all of his solo albums. IMO they are as good as anyting done on solo albums by any of the other Stones.

Whether they approach a great Stones songs is a matter of taste/opinion. You have to remember, he doesn't have the other Stones behind him so he isn't going to get the same classic Stones sound.

I could be wrong, but I think Bill Wyman is the only one out of all of them to get a single to the top of the charts.

>> Witness Keith Richards’ early attempt to take his open tunings onstage, at Hyde Park 1969,
where the resultant confusion caused a reticent, teenage Mick Taylor to cross the stage gingerly
and offer to help The Great Man work out which fret to capo. Strangely, this sequence has been excised from the film. <<

okay, i'll bite: since it's been excised from the film, where do we go to witness it?
does this source say where he witnessed it? is it evident on the bootleg recordings? which number?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-14 19:09 by with sssoul.

Rolling Stone Issue 179 - 30 January 1975



ROCKMAN

>> Witness Keith Richards’ early attempt to take his open tunings onstage, at Hyde Park 1969, where the resultant confusion caused a reticent, teenage Mick Taylor to cross the stage gingerly and offer to help The Great Man work out which fret to capo. Strangely, this sequence has been excised from the film. <<


I hadn't heard this before. I don't know about KR having a capo on the wrong fret but one viewing of the video is enough to know that KR's guitar was woefully out of tune for pretty much the whole set. Maybe that was what MT was trying to help him with.

Jim Dickman at Muscle Shoals said keith could not read music and they would call
out the number 1 major chord etc when they recorded BS,Wild Horses and YGM.

This is in an interview.

I guess MT can't talk much about not being credited certain songs, same thing with Bill, as they are probably getting money under the table from the Stones.
I guess tracks like 100 Years Ago and Winter could be very MT's, hence is full involvement in the recording and Keith being absolutely absent.
Any thoughts?

dunhill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess MT can't talk much about not being
> credited certain songs, same thing with Bill, as
> they are probably getting money under the table
> from the Stones.

Do you have anything to back this up? thats a pretty strong accusation,

>> Jim Dickman at Muscle Shoals said ... <<

it's well known that (at least at that time) Keith rarely knew the names of chords -
Jim Dickinson (not "Dickman") is far from the only one who's pointed that out in public.
but what has that got to do with being in tune, out of tune, songwriting or anything else in the thread?
unless you mean Keith's ignorance of chord names is why Mick T left the Stones? :E

CREEM - March 1975



ROCKMAN

Ket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dunhill Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I guess MT can't talk much about not being
> > credited certain songs, same thing with Bill,
> as
> > they are probably getting money under the table
> > from the Stones.
>
> Do you have anything to back this up? thats a
> pretty strong accusation,
Well, it's quite common when there is a public reputation to be mantained that the plaintiff gets some kind of compensation, kinda like an out-of-court settlement.
Mine's just a guess, as anybody else's here on the various reasons MT quit the band.
I mean, if I had proof that I wrote the song and were not getting any credit I would sue the Stones ass off.
So maybe they offered them money to keep their mouths shut.
Point is, Bill's claim to having written JJF weighs a lot more than MT's to more obscure tracks.

Or was it Mick T and Jagger having an affair according to Sanchez keith's drug
supplier in his book.

Who cares why he left I do not its personal . The thread changed pointing out some of Keith's limitations early on using open tunings and I just supported that idea with other information I have read.

Keith limitations..... ah, so MT now showed him how to play guitar?

ablett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith limitations..... ah, so MT now showed him
> how to play guitar?


...er, it's not quite as simple as that. Mick Taylor, in case you've ever noticed, played a different style altogether from Keith.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> Witness Keith Richards’ early attempt to take
> his open tunings onstage, at Hyde Park 1969,
> where the resultant confusion caused a reticent,
> teenage Mick Taylor to cross the stage gingerly
> and offer to help The Great Man work out which
> fret to capo. Strangely, this sequence has been
> excised from the film. <<
>
> okay, i'll bite: since it's been excised from the
> film, where do we go to witness it?
> Gazza, does this source say where he witnessed it?
> is it evident on the bootleg recordings? which
> number?

Another source on this. I wonder whether it is apocryphal. Thanks for the link Vancouver:

" Saturday, 5th July 1969
The day that half a million fans flocked into London's Hyde Park to pay tribute to the greatest rock and roll band in the world: The Rolling Stones. It followed closely the tragic death of Brian Jones, who only a few weeks earlier had announced his split with the group.
The Stones showed themselves to be a great rallying point for the diverse sections of youth from all over Britain and abroad: they were all there, from Hippies to Hells Angels.
This film traces the events from dawn till dusk on that sweltering summer's day and includes exclusive interview footage with Mick Jagger and the other Stones plus 8 full, classic Stones tracks!

Some of the footage that was not shown, was some seven minutes of tuning-ups. There was trouble in heaven, Keith Richards was not able to tune his guitar properly, Mick Taylor had to put up the nerve to cross the stage, and turn the maestro's tuning pegs. Keith didn't accept the help of Mick Taylor very graciously, eyes stares straight ahead but it was as if the gaze was somehow - parallel - three feet to the left. Zombie with tuning problems.
Everything slipping away, he could no longer make the calculations - 'if this is Open E and the songs is in C then the Capo needs to be ... uhhhh'. Taylor shifts it up 2 more frets for him. Actully the whole trip with open tunings was probably so new and fresh to Keith Richards that anyone could have gone hay-wire of less."

Look under Ya Yas: [www.godgammeldags.nu]

The blurb refers to both tuning and capo placement. The tuning pegs part is new to me. I had read only about capo placement.

By the way, it is not evident from any version I've seen as they all come from what has been released by Granada. So, I presume this is reported from one of the reliably stoned audience members or the ever-reliably-may-or-may-not-be-stoned-but-writes-as-if-it-were press. But, it's on the Internet, so it must be true, right?

I once read a quote that said, "Mick Taylor joined the Stones as a young drug free micro-biotic vegetarian eating kid and five years later left the band addicted to heroin and running for his life."

Erm, I think it was a survival move. He was zonked on junk and in really bad shape by the end of the 1973 UK/Europe tour. That plus the boredom of waiting for Keef to show up, get his head in the right place, Mick J.'s endless posturing and socializing, and finally, just feeling 'de trop' in the world's most famous rock and roll band. It can get old. Just look at The Beatles. George and John were just ready to move on, but Paul wanted to keep together in order to have something to do.

this is a tragedy! who will replace him?? any thoughts?

Smokey Wrote:
> " Saturday, 5th July 1969
> The day that half a million fans flocked into
> London's Hyde Park to pay tribute to the greatest
> rock and roll band in the world: The Rolling
> Stones. It followed closely the tragic death of
> Brian Jones, who only a few weeks earlier had
> announced his split with the group.
> The Stones showed themselves to be a great
> rallying point for the diverse sections of youth
> from all over Britain and abroad: they were all
> there, from Hippies to Hells Angels.
> This film traces the events from dawn till dusk on
> that sweltering summer's day and includes
> exclusive interview footage with Mick Jagger and
> the other Stones plus 8 full, classic Stones
> tracks!
>
> Some of the footage that was not shown, was
> some seven minutes of tuning-ups. There was
> trouble in heaven, Keith Richards was not able to
> tune his guitar properly, Mick Taylor had to put
> up the nerve to cross the stage, and turn the
> maestro's tuning pegs. Keith didn't accept the
> help of Mick Taylor very graciously, eyes stares
> straight ahead but it was as if the gaze was
> somehow - parallel - three feet to the left.
> Zombie with tuning problems.
> Everything slipping away, he could no longer make
> the calculations - 'if this is Open E and the
> songs is in C then the Capo needs to be ...
> uhhhh'. Taylor shifts it up 2 more frets for him.
> Actully the whole trip with open tunings was
> probably so new and fresh to Keith Richards that
> anyone could have gone hay-wire of less."

I have to think that this story is apocryphal as Keith had used open E and D tunings with capos before on Begger's Banquet and Let It Bleed. The man's not a @#$%& idiot, especially when it comes to playing guitar.

Brilliant musician and sublime guitar player...but no direction of his own.
Shame.

It was 32 years ago today.....
Dec. 14, 1974 Rolling Stones announce that Mick Taylor leaves Stones.
Coincidentally...it was also on Dec. 14th, that Taylor joined the Stones on stage in Kansas City in 1981.


photo credit: unknown



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-14 14:41 by sweet neo con.

thanks for this "second source", Smokey - i wonder if that's the same source that your previous quote is based on.
what number is Keith supposed to have been playing in open E at Hyde Park?
as ChrisM notes it doesn't sound like the person actually knows beans about open tuning, or about the Stones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-14 19:08 by with sssoul.

oh my god...MT is leaving the stones?

jamesjagger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh my god...MT is leaving the stones?



Typical ill-guided rumour, a product of the atmospher of negativity here. Believe me, MT is doing fine.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-14 15:30 by Doxa.

Of course, he won't ever leave the Stones really will he.

All his beautiful work with the band between 1969 and 1974 is with us forever.

Here's the thing with authorship of songs. If Bill Wyman showed up with his demo of his new song and Jagger/Richards later write a soundalike called JJF, he'd have grounds for a suit. Instead, Bill claims he played a chord sequence on keyboards that Keith liked and later incorporated into JJF and when Bill brought up that it was his unrecorded riff, Keith denied it. No proof, no grounds for compensation. Bill kept quiet about it until he hooked up with Eric Gardner in 1978 and suddenly articles started appearing that he wrote the song. Mick Taylor's situation is a bit more like Dave Davies' in The Kinks. Mick contributed to songs changing their musical direction and was told he would receive credit. When the album was released without credit, he was told it won't happen next time, but of course it did. Still can't easily sue to prove your contribution warranted credit, its more a matter of honor and is definitely part of why Taylor is not in the band and why many bands split. This is notably different from Taylor fanatics claiming he wrote words and music to several Stones songs and did not receive credit. If this were so, he would be the dumbest man in the world not to come forward with his demos and sue. Mr. Taylor has never claimed this publicly. It is really no different than zealous fans claiming Brian Jones' parents should own the band's name or that Brian playing Keith's melodies on sitar, marimbas, dulcimer, recorder, etc. constitute not only a writing credit, but authorship of the song. Part of the problem is the way Jagger and Richards speak of their work. When Mick says he wrote "Miss You" with Billy Preston during rehearsals for the 1976 European tour, he wasn't encouraging the late Mr. Preston to sue for royalties. He means the original idea was his and that Billy was the only guy in the studio to help him sort it out.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thanks for this "second source", Smokey - i wonder
> if that's the same source that Gazza's source is
> quoting.
> what number is Keith supposed to have been playing
> in open E at Hyde Park?
> as ChrisM notes it doesn't sound like the person
> actually knows beans about open tuning, or about
> the Stones.

I have only the info in the two sources I posted. It is certainly possible that the second source is the basis for the first source's information.

Smokey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> with sssoul Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > thanks for this "second source", Smokey - i
> wonder
> > if that's the same source that Gazza's source
> is
> > quoting.
> > what number is Keith supposed to have been
> playing
> > in open E at Hyde Park?
> > as ChrisM notes it doesn't sound like the
> person
> > actually knows beans about open tuning, or
> about
> > the Stones.
>
> I have only the info in the two sources I posted.
> It is certainly possible that the second source is
> the basis for the first source's information.

ANother view could be that what was witnessed was misinterpreted. I just find it hard to believe that Keith woudn'tk now how to place a capo on a standard or open tuned guitar on know how to tune the bloody thing. It boggles the mind.

oops - sorry Smokey, for attributing your earlier post to Gazza. i'll go back and correct that.
and ChrisM, indeed it doesn't seem too plausible - and i want to know where/when this person saw this extra footage.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i want to know where/when this person saw this
> extra footage.

sssoul--While both sources describe this as omitted footage, I read them as indicating the episode simply did not make it into the released film.

Someone from this board did contact Granada TV a while ago about this show to ask about the missing three songs. (About 1 1/2 to 2 years later, Granada released these songs on an official DVD.) Perhaps Granada can be contacted again about this "missing footage" as well. Was it Tsverin who contacted Granada?

By the way, so long as I am writing to you: thank you thank you thank you for starting and continuing those wonderful guitars of the band threads. They were wonderful sources of information and great reads.

Thank you for posting great pics and your commnets on those threads Smokey. There were some I had never seen before and very cool. The threads that pertain to the music and guitars are among my favorites and I'm grateful to all who start such topics.