What great opinions I have read on this forum! Thank you all, kindly. Keef and Woody worked really well together in the 1970's. Gone was the beauty of Mick Taylor, replaced with a barbed-wire, twin-guitar attack...the sound had become rawer and more rough-edged...the 1975-76 tours and the 1978 'Some Girls' tour was when Woody and Keef were at their best working together [though even then Woody's solos were often horrific]. Thereafter Woody would be only a liability to this band...as he remains until today.

Very sad indeed, when one reads all of the erudite and informative posts in this discussion, to remember and realize that Woody was such a tasty guitar picker with the Faces. His work was sublime for that band...and it has NEVER EVER approached that level with the Stones, save for a few cuts in the 'Some Girls'/'Emotional Rescue' era.

I have a question...and this could be the basis for a completely new discussion; could it truly be that the Stones, as Ry Cooder once stated, are 'bloodsuckers'? In the sense that their greed and artistic avarice do not allow ANY acknowledgment of creative input outside of the Jagger/Richards axis? Their history is RIFE with stories of underpaying/under-acknowledgment of brilliant musicians [Mick Taylor,Ian McLagan,Ernie Watts,Ry Cooder, etc...] who have left the band with bitter tastes in their mouths. Ronnie is too weak and too beholden to being a Stone to ever leave...but his talents have been incredibly ill-served in this band. He has simply never flowered as a musician with the Stones. The funkiness and buoyancy with which he led the Faces have mostly disappeared in the Stones. There are so few 'iconic 'Woody' moments in the Stones music the last 25 years. Who could ever forget the myriad Mick Taylor or Brian Jones moments in the Stones musical history...'Woody' moments? So few...sadly...so few...

P.S. Debra makes severla incisive comments regarding Keef...yes...Woody was chosen as a guitar player partly because he never 'threatened' Keef...this has been documented many times...

Diamond rings, Vaseline, you gave me disease, well, I lost a lot of love over you.

Turd, as I said somewhere in another thread sometime ago, they are "bloodsuckers". There is not one single band member that "survived" between Mick and Keith except Charlie (or has his cancer also something to do with it?). Brian's dead. Mick T. left pissed (alcohol problems today?? I don't know), Bill left pissed about Mick and Keith, Woody might be to weak to leave and that's what might make him ill or an alcoholic.

So at least they destroy themselves out of themselves.

Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you all, kindly. Keef and Woody worked
> really well together in the 1970's. Gone was the
> beauty of Mick Taylor, replaced with a
> barbed-wire, twin-guitar attack...the sound had
> become rawer and more rough-edged...the 1975-76
> tours and the 1978 'Some Girls' tour was when
> Woody and Keef were at their best working together
> . Thereafter Woody would be only a liability to
> this band...as he remains until today.

I can't let that comment go! Woody was not a liability to the band after 1978. OK there was the small thing of a coke addiction through the early 80s, but he still contributed much to the band through the 1980s. In fact, I think that f it hadn't have been for Ronnie, the Stones would have self destructed in the mid 80s. Ron was the middle man between the glimmer twins.

And what's more, Ron was certainly not a liability on Steel Wheels or Voodoo Lounge albums and tours. He was still capable of some blistering lead in the early 90s - just look at some of his work on songs like Rock and a Hard Place live in that period. It is only recently that he has become a 'liability' (probably too harsh a description for me). His contribution to ABB seems very small indeed compared with his input to previous albums and I do miss his guitar playing.

I can see, however, that he tries to fill in the important lines in songs that Keith forgets about. For example, the lead in sympathy always has Ron filling in the original licks in the background. However, it is never loud enough to make a difference what with Keith playing over the top.

MT himself has always said that the Stones do not let Ronnie really play. While I prefer MT I thought that Ronnie was great on Some Girls and the 78 tour. I also believe that he has been treated not very well by the Stones for a majority of his tenure. Remember, he was a paid employee for 20 years and since they did not tour after 82 up until 89 he probably was unhappy about that. I also tend to believe that that MJ/KR did not utilize Ronnie as a partner and if they did was Ronnie credited?
Yes he has declined but so has Keith. There are some gigs where it sounds great and others where the solos are just awful or do not exist but that is true for both guitarists. Lets just respect the fact that they are not in their prime but they still can do what they do most nights is amazing.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-07 07:00 by Beelyboy.

We really need to leave Ronnie alone.Keith is worst than Ronnie in declining.Its age,I believe.Also I don't go to a show expecting a 72 show,those days are gone.I thought he played well in 89-2002.they are going show to show this time'playing different everynight.PS,I did a thread about his songwriting,and I always thought they should let him right with the stones;their lost I'm afraid.

That is a superb version of Sweet Li'l Rock n Roller. The guitar sound is awsome! Anyone know what setup he used to get it? I can get a good approximation of that tone by leaving my cry baby wah wah on about 3/4 of the sweep (if you know what I mean). You hit a sort of tone "sweet spot" where things suddenly get a bit ear splitting and the guitar just cuts through everything.

All this talk about Ronnie just made me put on the Faces box set.That boxset puts Ronnie in the same class as Taylor 69/74,some of you may agree some may not...Ronnie's songwriting alone 69/74 puts him up there with Taylor..

Debra, Nice to hear from someone else who appreciates Taylor, met him a couple
of times and seen him numerous times out here in LA. One of a kind!!

If you want to hear some other top notch solo's of his, go over to the
other tab that has songs to download and find: YCAGWYW from Wash DC - 1972
Gimme Shelter from Philly, Charlotte N.C., and the Wash DC version..

excellent!!

And I have to disagree with Mr. Davis, NO Ronnie can't play Taylor lines!!!
he tries his best (sometimes) and some nights are better than others,
but to me it's like driving a Ferrari then being given the keys to a Ford Mustang and being told: Here drive, it's the same, it isn't!!

MLC

Beelyboy put it best..."early on after joining the stones there were a few jagger/richards/wood songs credited...so maybe ron thought he was really gonna be 'in' the band there...like a right hand man, like he was with rod (with faces and rod solo)...if so, big surprise ronnie.

it's true this was a long time ago...and it's true that rod and the faces were reknown for heavy drinking...and time has marched on...
but a lot of players get better, or at least retain their basic fiery standby chops...regardless of age...so, there is something sad goin' on here.
but to think that i have so many stunning ron wood albums with stewart...
such absolute top of the heap wonderfully warm rock guitar...
and to think that we always must make allowances and apologies for the guitars now...is kind of twisted.

the glims would have done well to let ronnie in, have a solo (vocal or co-write) song on each, or every other album...keep him respected and into it...his pallette of 12 strings and mandos on top of very hot electric rock guitar was so perfect...
all this, PLUS really good slide work!
put on 'sweet little rock and roller' if you haven't heard it, or haven't heard it in awhile...it will transport you totally...and then after you think about it for awhile, it will make you sad."

This is very sad. Because Woody has showed only glimpses of that warm and lovely guitar playing that he exhibited with the Faces during his tenure with the Stones. Perhaps he was over-awed...or perhaps finally being in the band he idolized, with the man he deified playing along side of him...and trying to keep up with Keef...the drugs, the lifestyle...everything...jsut proved too much for him. It has destroyed him. He never has been the guitar player that Mick Taylor was/is...never. But he did have a very attractive and endearing style...and it has been exhibited less and less since the late 1970's. He has faded into near-irrelevance on Stones recording.

MCDD, I saw Taylor solo 4 years ago and he played amazingly well BUT He was so out of it I was shocked! I'll tell you about that if you email me, it is something they've all heard before( [email protected]).

I love Mick Taylor also,I saw him 3 times',but that's not going to make me say Woodie suck's..I lve Brian also.Let Ronnie have his props..

Curtis,
I didn't say: Ronnie sucks

I just said there is no comparison between the two, there are a very few
guitarists I would even mention in the same breath with Taylor, that's all!!

Loved Ronnie's early work with Rod Stewart then the Faces, like alot of the
Stones songs with Ronnie, Beast of Burden, Only hear you sign, Out of Control,
etc.

Again Ferrari vs Mustang, alot of people are "happy" with Mustangs, I prefer

Enzo's

MLC

Ronnie live 75/76 he came close to Taylor on Hand of Fate,Hot Stuff and even on Heartbreaker,he sounds very much like Taylor on Heartbreaker in 94, those opening lines Ronnie plays on Can't You Hear,,in MSG HBO were awesome.I think with focus he is very capable,Rod Stewart even said when he is sober he is the shit.NOw if only he was sober enough!!!

He's not the same player that he was in the 70's... sadly

Ron & keith sounded pretty good when they did that stunt on the flatbed truck
in New York back in 1975 to promote the tour -- (Brown Sugar)
Best I've heard Ronnie these days was the Licks tour in Boston, on CYHMK...

MLC

At least the Mustang is still on the road! Sorry could not resist.

Overall, Ronnie is/was one of the most versatile guitar players ever. Not one dimensional like many other guitarist.

His contribution to music is HUGE.

Well Dog,

Did you see Johm Mayall's Birthday Gig on Video?? Taylor still alife and kicking!!! and could do "wonders" on a few Stones songs if given the chance
to rehearsh with the band for a few days....

Ronnie's contributions these days and also Keith's for that matter
vary wildly from day to day, and I for one would be as put off as these other
folks who have forked out big$$$ to see one of those performances for that
price!!

For what the Stones are charging per ticket, I would expect nothing short of a
"excellent" show, half-ass doesn't cut it, I don't care if this is the last
possible time they might tour like this or not!!


MLC

Mick Taylor blew Clapton away at that performance everyone saw it come!!!
I loved it! Clapton got all the applause.....

MLC,

No I have not seem that video and I agree with what you are saying. I am a big rock & roll fan and not a big blues-virtuoso fan in general.

I watch Ladies and Gentlemen often and consider it the Stones at their prime with MT truely doing some unbelievable stuff. Then I will crank up Handsome Girls and be equally blown away (if not more) for totally different reasons.

For some reason Ronnie/Keith has always got my air guitar going not MT/Keith.

Just like Ronnie can't play MT lines, the same could easily be said in reverse IMO. The dual guitar attack took allot of work and is not easily duplicated.

Music was changing in the mid '70's, Ronnie helped them change with it and keep them on top into the '80's.

The Enzo is fast but fast does not mean better IMHO.

It's all good I suppose.

woodie was a GREAT fit but he should have left in 1983 after Undercover, and gone back to rescue rod the mod from dance music. the stones weren't going to tour for 6 years and would have had lots of time to find a new 'lead' guitarist like perkins, mandell, or MT. that said, ronnie still contributed great guitar work to all their subsequent cds, all the way thru those tasty fast licks on last year's Look what the cat dragged in.

the stones could really have used a fluid inventive soloist (i'm thinking about the mind-melting solo on Hot Stuff) from 1986 onward. ronnie's ADD (or meds or whatever) has finally made him a liability. it's time for a new guitarist who can keep up with jagger, who is in top form yet again on this tour, and to make the guitar attack exciting again with arthritis making a dent in keef's playing.

they made the right choice in '75 with woodie. for 2007 and beyond, at least when they play live, they need to make a new choice. roger waters, the who, macca, dylan, iggy, plant, etc. have all found some very professional, great sounding, and hungry, younger guitarists over the last decade. the stones can too if they don't want to use MT or clapton or any remaining contemporaries. of course, that younger guitarist will have to be very strong internally to not get 'sapped dry' by the glimmer senior twins, but he would obviously be a hired hand like darryl/blondie etc. and maybe escape the fate of fulltime members like BJ, MT, BW, and RW. it needs to happen, for everybody's sake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-08-01 04:30 by winter.

I don't really know how I would feel if they fired Woodie.Don't see it happening unless he get's unreliable for gigs on this coming tour.But in the end he still suprise his critics and fans......

I second that emotion..."It needs to happen...for everybody's sake"...Woody has to go. The Stones need a new direction. And a guitar player who can be an engine for the band and a foil for the ever-excellent Mr. Jagger. Woody is no longer capable of that...

Diamond rings, Vaseline, you gave me disease, well, I lost a lot of love over you.

The Stones are not going to fire Ronnie and hire some young guy to do solos while Keff picks his nose. Not going to happen.

Now it is possible that Ronnie physically can no longer do it. If that happend they would HAVE TO BRING MT back. I do not think that is impossible. Otherwise they would not be The Stones. Just like Daltry and Pete calling themselves The Who with some silly line-up. I LOVE those guys, but I'm sorry they are NOT The Who.

If Ronnie can no longer do it- and it seems that point is near. Bring back MT.

don't give me that ole one two, one two three four

They just came off a tour in which they grossed hundreds of millions of dollars at well-attended concerts. Why would they change horses?

If they didn't replace Ronnie when he wasn't playing, why would they replace him now that he is?



(By the way, would Jagger do this with anyone else in the band? Anyone else who was ever in the band?)

"If they didn't replace Ronnie when he wasn't playing, why would they replace him now that he is?"

That is absolutely side-splitting...and the picture is priceless...great stuff. But seriously...he must be replaced after this last go-round. Mick Taylor would be perfect...a dream come true...

Diamond rings, Vaseline, you gave me disease, well, I lost a lot of love over you.

x



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-07 06:58 by Beelyboy.

Yeah, it seems most fans have been ecstatic for years just to have the guitarists come out and smile and wave, so why would they change? New directions?!? Starting over at 65? Only mick has that mentality, and even he has been playing with the same backup musicians for almost 20 years (and same band for 40!).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-08-01 06:55 by cc.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-07 06:58 by Beelyboy.

take a listen to ronnie's solo albums, which are soulful and energetic, and then listen to taylor's sleepy albums, and say who is the better guitarist and writer and player...

If the Stones need a new lead guitarist to keep the machine working they probably should get a new rhythm guitarist too...

[There'll be no wedding today...]