With sssoul, don't worry. There is not any real putting down here going on; we are just talkin about a band we all really love; some of us just happen to have a different point of views, and I think is good to get those different points and disagreements on the table once in a while, and then go on. Personally I really enjoy this conversation, and I have always respected and will always respect the fellow IORRans such as Mathijs and ChelseaDrugstore and many others. You know, I try to defend Brian Jones or at least to do him some justice because I think - as Neptune says - his contribution is sometimes underestimated. For many Stones fans, mostly male, there seems to me some kind of strange feelings towards Jones. It is a question of personal dislike that seems to effect to any estimation of his contribution. I think mr. Jones was quite a strange character and his image is maybe quite freaky and strange compared to the 'traditional' rock look and sound (in and out of stage), manifested and stabilized in the 70's by Keith (and his clones as Ronnie). Be it so or not, but I will not like this cause to hide his musical legacy and importance. I suppose this attitude of judging Brian Jones by his supposed negative personal traits or ill behaviour is much promoted by the rest of the Stones (expect Bill Wyman), and thereby adopted and shared by many Stones fans (you know, when people discuss about anything related to Brian Jones they usually don't forget to mention that he was a an @#$%&, a druggie, a woman beater, etc. just as people don't forget to mention while talking about Marianne Faithfull her big boobs...). Anyway, as I see it, there seems to be a blind spot in the minds of some very respected Stones lunatics here and the name of the spot is Brian Jones's real contribution to The Rolling Stones. But what contribution exactly is, is still quite difficult to say. At least, I am not in a position to clearly estimate or define it. But I found the issue very interesting one.

But in the end, we all are here just having fun and enjoying ourselves by getting a chance to get some totally absurd and irrelevant info and sharing crazy opinions, right?

- Doxa

Brian made GREAT contributions to the whole world of Rock IMO. But again as a guitarrist pre se it was not. What he did was pave the way for electyric blues and then Rock to be born. Playing the slide on Rooster e.g was brilliant. But just about anyone could actually play it. It's just that no one thought of it before him. That is his genius on guitar. I have nor forgottne that in the earliest days the band and the sound was Brian's vision. Yes, Keith and Jagger jumped on it, took it over and got better than he did. But there he was, at the core. I do believe that is what Mathijs and I are saying.
While the word is that Brian's big weakness was that he could not write a song, he was in another way very much a writer. Or more a "creator"; a visionary. he just got done so quickly with the guitar part of it. Maybe it was totally by his own choice that he just allowed Keith to go ahead and run with it, since he was better at it than he, and wanted it more than he.
Then he moved on to other instrumenst where again it was the idea of them often that was just as much of the impact. The Marimba line in Thumb is great. But it is twice as great because it is on Marimbas. And probably was a big reason for it being a hit. There were Jagger's outrageous lyrics, the song itself with that cool change to the A, but there are also those creepy Marimbas vibrating away.
Back Street Girl is a beautiful song. The Accordion makes it heavenly, and also flavors it. It is like a deliciouis chocolate layer cake at first; but when Brian is done with it is covered in glossy chocolate icing.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

For sssoul,

Brian's guitar on England's Newest Hitmakers:
1.)Not Fade Away: none
2.)Route 66: rhythm electric guitar/Keith lead (I think this is one of the best examples of Brian and Keith's weaving. Brian's rhythm is loud in the mix and drives the song.)
3.)I Just Want to Make Love to You: none
4.)Now I've Got a Witness: none
5.)Little by Little: rhythm electric guitar (hardly audible at times-bad mix)
6.)King Bee: slide electric
7.)Carol: rhythm electric guitar
8.)Tell Me: sole electric guitar plus solo/Keith acoustic (I am convinced Brian plays the solo here because it doesn't remotely sound like any of Keith's hundreds of solos over the past 40-plus years. It is a very beautiful and melodic solo and I think it's Brian all the way.)
9.)Can I get a Witness: none
10.)You Can Make It You Try: sole electric guitar/Keith acoustic (The electric is Brian because it bears his stamp of sliding around those frets. If you listen to this closely, you hear Brian 'sliding' from one crisp note to another. Keith was still into playing Chuck Berry-inspired riffs at that time while Brian handled the more delicate and melodic parts.)
11.)Walking The Dog: rhythm electric guitar

And I'll go over 12x5 tomorrow . . .

so cool neptune: ty
keep 'em comin' please

Do you all have the 1964 show from Schevingen, the Netherlands that was on dimeadozen a month or so ago? It's when mick's mic failed, so it's 4 songs of live stones karaoke. It would be a good opportunity to hear the guitars interacting in a live context, but that the recording is of low quality. Interesting though, and still on my pc... I'm going away for a few days tomorrow but can seed it when I get back.

I find the selection of Brians replacements to be very telling... Mick Taylor and Ron Wood are so "un-Brian"... much more forceful, faster in general...

Do you think this was deliberate... that Mick/Keith & whoever else said we need a heavier, pushier guitar sound ??????????? It seems to me that by that time they were masters of the stage, especially Mick, and knew exactly what sort of sound (and act) would elicit the most electric audience response.

"It's just that demon life has got me in it's sway..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-05-24 07:51 by BornOnTheBayou.

thank you Neptune - that is cool to ponder. missing your take on Honest I Do there, when you feel like it ... thank you, truly.
listening to Route 66 even as we speak ... ahh i love this! as others have noted, i reckon the two guitarists fluently interchanging lead and rhythm parts
is something that would happen onstage rather than in the studio ... so i'll be looking forward hugely to Decembers Children. :E

>> Do you all have the 1964 show from Schevingen <<

CC, i don't and i would be totally thrilled to hear this - i lack the technology for torrents,
but if there were any way you could put it on line via yousendit or something, that would be so brilliant.

Keith, be well - all the way, baby, all the way



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-05-24 10:21 by with sssoul.

Well, I'm still up, so let me see if I can get it online before I forget. In my post managed to misspell *Scheveningen*, a burg I've never heard of otherwise. wsss, I think I will put a zip archive of the files in mp3 format on yousendit -- would that work for you? I would like others to hear it, as during the last number (on the tape) there's a dialogue between mick and the promoter or the m.c. that I haven't had the patience to transcribe mentally.

And am I not allowed to post the link here?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-05-24 09:30 by cc.

thank you kindly, CC - i've never tried receiving a zipped file from yousendit but i'm sure willing to try if you are.
smile: i remember that little dialogue from the footage of that show -
"have you every seen it like this before?"
"not quite like this, no"
and Mick noting mildly that they can't go on forever without a microphone ... :E

Keith, be well - all the way, baby, all the way



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-05-24 10:41 by with sssoul.

It's actually going to be a .rar file... you'll need winrar, which handles both .rars and .zips, and maybe other beasties too...

ahh well - i will wait for someone to upload it in a straight mp3 or zip format, then!
thank you though, CC, on behalf of the people who do have the technology to handle this version.

Keith, be well - all the way, baby, all the way

Keith: Brian found an apartment out in the suburbs of Beckham and I started to live there, too. This was an intense learning period, figuring out Jimmy Reed and stuff.

Ian: The great thing was (Keith and Brian) living in the (Edith Grove) flat together (in 1962-63) with no money and nothing to do but play. They really got off on this two-guitar player thing. And they pulled it off really well. All those old records usually featured two guitar players. So they absorbed a lot. They were young enough to be influenced in the heart rather than in the head.... By (1963), having lived together and done nothing else but listen to their records and tapes and play together, Brian and Keith had this guitar thing like you wouldn't believe. There was never any suggestion of a lead and a rhythm guitar player. They were two guitar players that were like somebody's right and left hand.

Keith: When we started playing together, we were listening to Jimmy Reed and Muddy Waters. In both cases, you had two guitars weaving around one another. We'd play those things so much - which is the way you have to do it - that we knew both parts. So then we got to the point where we got it really flash, and we suddenly switch. The one doing the lead picks up the rhythm and the one doing the rhythm picks up the lead... We still do it today. The Rolling Stones are basically a two-guitar band. That's how we started off. And the whole secret, if there IS any secret behind the sound of the Rolling Stones, is the way we work two guitars together.

Bill: Keith and Brian used to sit and all day long practice. When they weren't in bed, they would sit and practice note for note. Every Jimmy Reed song they could hear, every Howlin' Wolf, Elmore James, Chuck Berry, note for note. And they would do these amazing intricate patterns between the two guitars, one going down the scale and one going up and they would work on it for hours and hours. I mean, they really perfected that.

Here's the show:
[www.yousendit.com]

and you can get winRAR free here:
[www.rarlab.com]

ahh thank you CC, i think i've got it! thank you.
this is so wild - the sound quality is indeed not too good, but listen to those cats GO!

Keith, be well - all the way, baby, all the way



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-05-24 10:46 by with sssoul.

Swell... I hope some others grab it, too, and we are able to draw some conclusions together. I think keith is the louder guitar--that's one of my rules of thumb--but those roles may switch on "High-Heeled Sneakers." The amps are running fairly hot, unless that's tape distortion, and the place is rocking!

cc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The amps are running
> fairly hot, unless that's tape distortion, and the
> place is rocking!


That would be a understatement ;-) They litteraly tour the houyse down!

Cheers,
Wuudy

Waeving, schmewing, Keith and Ronnie jammed when they still played guitar. And it was great often. Same with Brian. But the Stones sounded best with Taylor.

... just bumping this up hopefully - it would be so cool if someone felt like pointing out Brian's guitar on more tracks.
besides, that Kurhaus recording that CC was good enough to upload is *hot!*
now if only someone somewhere someday could remaster that ...

Keith, be well - all the way, baby, all the way

Thanks Neptune! Love Brians slide on King bee, he is singing with that guitar. Same on Little red rooster. He was truly great on slide. Perfection really.

Brian's guitar on 12x5:

1.)Around and Around: rhythm electric guitar

2.)Confessin' the Blues: lead electric guitar (Brian plays the lead on this one while Keith plays the choppy rhythm. Again, one can tell it's Brian because of the way he skillfully 'slides' from one note to the next in some parts, particularly during the harp solo break. The precise phrasing of notes and, most importantly, the measured pace of the lead is more indicative of Brian's style of playing than Keith's at that time. All of Keith's blues leads back then tended to be a bit tentative sounding with a few 'hiccups' here and there- ie. High Heel Sneakers. Brian, on the other hand, was a much more conventional and fluid blues player then, who pretty much perfected the various techniques of 1950's Chicago electric blues guitar.)

3.)Empty Heart: none

4.)Time Is On My Side: lead electric guitar/ Keith plays solo (This is my preferred version because you can clearly here the two guitars.)

5.)Good Times, Bad Times: none

6.)It's All Over Now: electric guitar (Brian plays the one-note 'chicken' riffs during verse and power chords during chorus. Keith plays the solo. All this can be clearly evidenced by the televised footage of their early live performances, especially the electrifying 1964 TAMI Show.)

7.)2120 S. Michigan Avenue: none

8.)Under the Boardwalk: acoustic guitar plus solo (Acoustic sounds like Brian to my ears and during the solo, you can hear Brian's signature 'sliding' technique.)

9.)Congratulations: sole electric guitar (While Keith's nice acoustic playing takes center stage, I have always liked Brian's subtle countryish phrasing in the background.)

10.)Grown Up Wrong: slide electric guitar (One of his weaker efforts on slide.)

11.)If You Need Me: sole electric guitar (The exact phrasing of notes and measured pace point to Brian's style here.)

12.)Susie Q: Inaudible lead electric during verse (Keith plays all the solos on this one.)

Erik_Snow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Melville has written some good stuff, though.
> Especially Bartleby
I just read Bartelby. Bartelby the scrivener.

On weaving:

Emotional rescue has some good weaving. Songs like summer romance and where the boys go.

shes so cold has some really cool quitar too

I'm very happy to hear about other Where The Boys Go-appreciaters!
I couldn't believe anybody would NOT like it (among the ones who've heard it) before I read IORR.
Bartleby was an quick read, but I really liked that short book.

Where the boys go sounds like the band was just playing together It has a live sound to me .No overdubs. 'cept the end chorus part.

I read bartleby in a short story collection.

I have to get back to work now even thoogh "Id prefer not to"

would you like me to open a Guitar Weaving: Keith & Ronnie thread for you? :E
i'm sure it'll be just as fascinating as this one about Keith & Brian!

Keith, be well - all the way, baby, all the way

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> would you like me to open a Guitar Weaving: Keith
> & Ronnie thread for you? :E
> i'm sure it'll be just as fascinating as this one
> about Keith & Brian!

That would be really nice, although I'm not good enough in the English language to contribute much....I mostly use the word "great" "not so nice" etc.
But it's a good idea!

... anyone else feel like continuing this fine thread?
i've been listening to Now all day - my my MY but those cats can play!


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

Sssoul, here's Brian's guitar on NOW!:


1.)Everybody Needs Somebody to Love: electric slide guitar plus solo

2.)Down Home Girl: electric slide guitar (In a word, subtle excellence)

3.)You Can't Catch Me: electric rhythm

4.)Heart Of Stone: bass lead notes during verse (which are not played on a bass guitar)

5.)What A Shame: electric slide plus solo (one of his better efforts)

6.)Mona: electric lead (Bo himslef said Brian was his best imitator!)

7.)Down the Road Apiece: electric rhythm which is WAYYY too low in the mix

8.)Off the Hook: lead electric (Brian plays the main riff, which can be clearly evidenced in the live TAMI show performance in 1964)

9.)Pai In My Heart: none

10.)Oh Baby: rhythm electric guitar

11.)LRR: we all know what he played on this one!

12.)Surprise, Surprise: rhythm electric guitar (yawn)

thanks Neptune -
i was watching the TAMI show today, deeply frustrated (as usual!) by how little close camera the guitarists get,
but it sure is a beautiful performance. nzentgraf.de indicates that it was one of those "live vocals + backing track" situations:

>> 1964 28th October: Santa Monica, Civic Auditorium, 'Teen Age Music International (TAMI) Awards Show'.
Recording of all tracks, except the 'Closing Jam' for the playback tape, used on 29th October. <<


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

neptune Wrote:

> 1.)Everybody Needs Somebody to Love: electric
> slide guitar plus solo

I've never heard a slide on this track: which part is it?

I'd like to see a detailed breakdown of the guitars on "Heart of Stone." I think there are at least 4! The bass-y not-bass guitar always throws me for a loop when I try to listen carefully. It's louder than the bass guitar. I think keith plays the solo, which sounds well overdubbed. Guess this is the kind of track they liked to use RCA in LA for.