is it Richard, or Richards?

Richards. In the 60s, he changed it to Richard, to sound a little more like Cliff Richard (perhaps I'm wrong, but I think this was one of Andrew Loog Oldham's PR ideas). In the 70s, he changed back to his real name.

keith as Richard

I would like more about his ancestors.
What places, more than Walthamstow, does/did Keef, Bert & the other Richards´s
count as origin.

Where ios Doris from? Someone knows if she´s alright, 90 as she is said to be.

>> In the 60s, he changed it to Richard <<
in fact he never changed his name legally; the s-less version was just a stage name/nom de plume he used for a while.
there are lots of different theories about why, but yeah, most of them have it as ALO's idea.

>> I would like more about his ancestors. <<
the Richards line is originally Welsh, and the Dupree line is giddy and French. :E
Bill's book says Doris's immediate family hailed from the Channel Islands, but had moved to Wales by the time she was born.


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

He dropped the 's' because he didn't spoke with his father at the time. When they made up, he put the 's' back again.

yeah, that's one version. i don't know if it's true, though: he signed autographs throughout this period with an s at least as often as without it; similarly, throughout the 70s when Mick did band introductions, he announced Keith both with and without the s. it doesn't seem like it was some kind of Big Emotional Deal for Keith.

smile: it sure was for pre-pubescent fans, though - i remember having fistfights over that now-you-see-it-now-you-don't s!
and over the fact Jagger truly is the other cat's *name* and not just more of the Stones' deliberate rudeness. :E


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

Potted Shrimp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He dropped the 's' because he didn't spoke with
> his father at the time. When they made up, he put
> the 's' back again.


not true. Keith started using the name "Richards" again during his Toronto trial in 1977-78 (if I remember right, he was referred to as 'Richards' in the legal documents used in that trial and just started using it again from then onwards)

He didnt get back in touch with his father again until 1982

the 's' was originally dropped at Andrew Oldham's suggestion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-21 15:18 by Gazza.

The "Richard" thing was Andrew Loog's idea......it had nothing to do with his Dad.

KR mentioned in one Book that the Dupree's were French Hugenots. There is a picture of Keith from the early days wearing a Shamrock charm on a chain.

I am sure someone else has a more detailed lineage.

I know Charlie is Jewish, but thats a religion, not a nationality so Charlie may actually be German. I don't know about Woody.....is he of Irish origin?

Milo, NYC
You're too rude

Woody's family background is gypsy, I believe.

I'm not sure about Charlie, but I think his mum was Jewish. A friend of mine from London who IS jewish told me that his mum was at school with him. Remembers him as a quiet lad who was REALLY into the American Civil War (something he kept an interest in as an adult as moct people know..)

Wouldnt read too much into the shamrock thing with keith. I've never heard of any Irish background.

Brits dont tend to go into their ethnic background as Americans do in general, as our families have generally been in our country for a lot longer than Americans have in theirs, which is somewhat understandable as Britain's a much older country and has experienced less migration until relatively recently

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> smile: it sure was for pre-pubescent fans, though
> - i remember having fistfights over that
> now-you-see-it-now-you-don't s!
> and over the fact Jagger truly is the other cat's
> *name* and not just more of the Stones' deliberate
> rudeness. :E

My girlfriend remembers she always thought Mick Jagger was the the name of Keith Richards (who undoubtedly looked much cooler than Mick in the 1960s and yeah, still does).


Milo Yammbag Wrote:
------------------
> I know Charlie is Jewish, but thats a religion, not a nationality so Charlie may > actually be German.

Charlie Jewish? That's new to me, Watts doesn't sound particularly Jewish or German to me. What are your sources?

However Allen Klein and Michael Cohl are Jews, as well as Waddy Wachtel, these are maybe the best known guys of Jewish origin in the surroundings of the Stones.

The 'dad' story came from Richards himself if I recall correctly. I'll try to look up the interview, otherwise I stand corrected.

sounds like more re-invention on Keith's part, but you never know

the name change definitely preceded his reunion with Bert by 3 or 4 years though.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Potted Shrimp Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He dropped the 's' because he didn't spoke
> with
> > his father at the time. When they made up, he
> put
> > the 's' back again.
>
>
> not true. Keith started using the name "Richards"
> again during his Toronto trial in 1977-78 (if I
> remember right, he was referred to as 'Richards'
> in the legal documents used in that trial and just
> started using it again from then onwards)
>
> He didnt get back in touch with his father again
> until 1982
>
> the 's' was originally dropped at Andrew Oldham's
> suggestion.
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12/21/05 15:18 by
> Gazza.


This is the way I always understood it as well. The Richard/Richards thing occurred when Loog came in & "starred them up" - making them move Stu out, having Keith drop the "s", making sure wives and such were hidden, concealing the fact that Perks was 42 (hyperbole), etc.
It was during the Toronto fiasco that Keith started to be known as Richards in the public eye.

>> It was during the Toronto fiasco that Keith started to be known as Richards in the public eye. <<

yeah, that s cropped up every time he was being charged with something, because it was his legal name, and obviously Toronto 77 was a pretty major up-cropping. but i guess it depends what part of the public eye you mean; i was quite aware that his real name is Richards from 1964 on - it was in all the teeny-bopper magazines, and knowing it was (as i've sort of noted) a real point of pride. i remember vaguely imagining that the constant misspelling of it was another example of grown-up mean-spiritedness toward the beleaguered & misunderstood artist.

i don't remember ever reading/hearing Keith himself say that the s had anything to do with Bert, but maybe i missed something.

as for Charlie: i've also read a couple of books where he's mentioned in passing that he's Jewish. if i remember where, i'll let you know.
same for Ronnie's Rom roots - that may be on his website somewhere ...


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

F.U.C. the Captain Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
> Charlie Jewish? That's new to me, Watts doesn't
> sound particularly Jewish or German to me. What
> are your sources?
>
> However Allen Klein and Michael Cohl are Jews, as
> well as Waddy Wachtel, these are maybe the best
> known guys of Jewish origin in the surroundings of
> the Stones.


i think there's a book called "Jews Who Rock"....never read it, but it may include Charlie Watts....i know it has Mick Jones from the Clash and of course Dylan and Getty Lee from Rush



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-21 19:32 by Leonard Keringer.

I always thought it was cute how Woody latched onto the issue with his own surname - notice how he played with Wood vs. Woods on the cover of his debut album?

KR mentioned in one Book that the Dupree's were French Hugenots. There is a picture of Keith from the early days wearing a Shamrock charm on a chain.

(Milo Y.)

- Yeah, I´ve read that too. He has a double (at least double)
celtic origin; from Ireland & from the Galoises.

The Watts part is utter rubbish though; you cant say someone´s "Jewish" even if
there might be some Jewish person backwards in the geneaology line. That´s sheer Nazi logic, and we dont wont that would we?

excuse me Baboon Bro, but it's not "Nazi logic" if his mother was Jewish. by Orthodox Jewish law if his mother was Jewish so is he.
he's referred to himself as Jewish, so maybe you can ask him what exactly he means by that when you get to interview him.

meanwhile, i found an interview where Ronnie talks a bit about his Rom roots:

"And these are my parents," he says, indicating a work depicting barges in Paddington Basin. "Because I come from the canal barges." Suddenly it all fits into place: this wiry man with his deep-brown gypsy eyes, wild dark hair and charming smile, this archetypal rock'n'roll outlaw, is descended from a long line of Romany boat people.

"I was one of the first to be born on dry land," Wood elaborates three days later, when the restless Stone can be pinned down for a proper interview at his house in Kingston upon Thames. "All of my family, right back to the 1700s — as far as I've traced them so far — have been on the barges, as navigators or helmsmen or whatever." His father, Arthur, was born on a barge called the Antelope; his mother, Elizabeth, on the Orient. They worked for a contractor called Sabey & Co, hauling timber and other products up and down the canals between London, Manchester and Stratford-upon-Avon. "During the war my dad never had to go through his national service, because he was transporting the raw materials to build the tanks and artillery." Though the Wood family had settled on terra firma by the time Ronnie was born (on June 1,1947, in Hillingdon, Middlesex), his father stayed in touch with the barge people. "When I was very young, he'd take me fishing on the canals and we'd go and see his pals on the boats. I remember lunches down in the cabin, with condensed milk. I remember the beautiful, murky smell down there, and the engines going, just travelling along the canals."

from [www.stonesforum.nl]


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-21 20:32 by with sssoul.

Excuse me for reading not too careful above.
Please also excuse me for being a sort of-Anthropologist,
or sooner a Historian with Ethno-Historic angle on my scholarship.

But, anyway; there are two criterias of ethnicity: One subjective matter,
and one objective.

My father is from birth Norweigan. Am I a Norseman because of that?

And if Charlie´s a Jew from his mum, then Mick´s an Aussie, right?

Baboon Bro, berate Charlie about it then - he's the one who has said he is Jewish.
and as a courtesy to Bjornulf let's not continue this here, all right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-12-21 20:31 by with sssoul.

Sure thing. Sorry.
Everyone has his or her right to claim his or her ethnicity.
Myself, for an instance, is a Norrlandian.
But passport says Sweden.

my passport says "setlist carer" - my distant relatives are the more evil "setlist whiners."

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baboon Bro, berate Charlie about it then - he's
> the one who has said he is Jewish.
> and as a courtesy to Bjornulf let's not continue
> this here, all right?

What's this to do with Bjornulf, is he of Jewish origin too? Or does Bjornulf think it is shameful if Charlie says he is of Jewish origin? I don't get it.

sigh, it's simple: i've noticed that Bjornulf would rather we not quarrel about ethnicity on his message boards.
i consider it courteous to try to respect that.

Baboon Bro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And if Charlie´s a Jew from his mum, then Mick´s
> an Aussie, right?
>



doesnt work like that. As sssoul correctly states, in Judaism your religious background is traced through your mother.

Mick is technically 1/4 Aussie. He still has relatives there, I think.

All very interesting - especially regarding Charlie.

But returning to Richards............it must be of Norman origin, surely, as is the first name Richard. Certainly not Brythonic! It was actually a Norman King Richard who decided to conquer Wales. He also 'hammered' the Scots. The Irish made the mistake of actually inviting the English Norman aristocracy into Ireland. The latter were so grateful that they (eventually) imposed themselves permanently there.

Historically the 'English people' are a complete mungrel breed of Celts, Norse (mainly Danish), Saxon, Angles and Normans. Then throw in an essentially German royal family and some jews, Romany types and more recent ethnic immigrants.

Isn't Jagger a Dutch name, (meaning?). And even if his mum was Australian I'd bet my top wallaby, that her ancestors were not 'aborigenes' but actually originated in England, Ireland, Wales or Scotland. Or the Isle of Man. Or Berwick on Tweed.

I´m a Viking

Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings

I'm a Monkey.

It's not where you're from- it's where you're at.