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Mathijs
And on song writing credits I think it also works much more basic than only ‘for the money’. Keith always enters the studio with half-written songs and ideas, and he needs to bounce these on other people. The best results? With Jagger. If Jagger is not around it’s Wood, or Steve Jordan, who got a credit on Steel Wheels.

I truly think that if Wood, Taylor or anybody else could have written and would have contributed verses, choruses and hooks as good as Jagger could to the ideas of Richard’s they would have received much more writing credits.

It’s simply too difficult to compete with Jagger and Richards when it comes down to writing Rolling Stones songs.

Mathijs

Surely you know that but Jordan got a credit because that song was started during the "Talk Is Cheap" sessions (there's an endless rambling Keith demo). Same reason he got a credit for "One More Shot". It's not like he worked on the song at the same time as Mick and Keith.

Keith may have had wonderful ideas for riffs but without Mick (and others like Jimmy Miller) to put them into shape no one would have paid attention. It's not like he came to the sessions with finished demos like Mick has been doing since at least SW and even more so since 2002. Bit of a chicken and egg thing of course but at the end of the day the "Jagger-Richards" team credits certainly seem very much "deserved"...well at least until B2B, nowadays it's more of a "brand" but it's not going to change now.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

<Keith may have had wonderful ideas for riffs but without Mick (and others like Jimmy Miller) to put them into shape no one would have paid attention.>

I don't think that is true, at least not in the 60s when he wrote some of their best songs.





[www.youtube.com]

From the beginning of the band, Mick&Keith were a duo. When they met Stew it was together whereas the others came as individuals. A very strong bond meaning eventually more power and more creative ideas. Songwriting partnership was already established and Andrew spotted the possibility in the duo. Obviously money in the power was also a raison to keep the duo seal off from intruders.

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keefriffhards

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MelBelli
Even if we credit Keith with two-thirds of the songs (chords and vocal melody) in the early days, lyrics are not incidental. Mick wrote most of them with very few exceptions. He was hardly just a passenger, and his role increased to full partner by 1967-68.

Be honest though, it's just words on paper, and maybe improving Keith's words, it's not writing the song, are you stretching reality to a point Mick co wrote Gimme Shelter?.

Literally there are so many people capable of writing lyrics, not anyone can compose the songs Keith has written.

Just look at Mick's solo efforts, do they sound like the Stones to you.?

They sound like someone who has been very lucky to be credited with 50% of the Stones catalogue, he hasn't come anywhere near close to that level with the exception of the tracks Mick Taylor helped him with.

Even Memo From Turner could hardly be considered a solo effort.

Jagger is writing melodies with those words too, don't forget.

Songwriting is defined as lyrics and/or musical composition.

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rollmops
From the beginning of the band, Mick&Keith were a duo. When they met Stew it was together whereas the others came as individuals. A very strong bond meaning eventually more power and more creative ideas. Songwriting partnership was already established and Andrew spotted the possibility in the duo. Obviously money in the power was also a raison to keep the duo seal off from intruders.

They were a duo as friends and band mates from Dartford, but they were not an established duo as songwriters before The Stones were formed or before Andre arrived. They had played with each other before The Rolling Stones, in Little Boy Blue and the Blue Boys, but they had not written any songs together. Mick, Keith, and Andrew all agree that Mick&Keith did not start writing songs before ALO encouraged them to do so.

Sadly Mick seems to have forgotten that Andrew encouraged them in his latest interview and most detailed discussion of how they started writing songs and what they sounded like starting at 1:55 here [www.youtube.com]

@DandelionPowderman - that's a nice demo, didn't remember it, I suspect that's more the exception though with Keith coming up with a more or less finished song, minus they lyrics.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026-06-04 20:10 by gotdablouse.

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gotdablouse
Keith may have had wonderful ideas for riffs but without Mick (and others like Jimmy Miller) to put them into shape no one would have paid attention. It's not like he came to the sessions with finished demos like Mick has been doing since at least SW and even more so since 2002.

Between 1967 and 1973 Keith came up with some of their best songs. Gimme Shelter being the most obvious. Yet Mick came up with Brown Sugar - but Keith put it into shape. Otherwise it was just Mick's usual warpy rhythm.

There's also the aspect of what Keith does. This is a perfect example:

Instantly (when Keith walked in the studio) it went from not very good, feels weird, to BAM and there it is. Instantly changed gears, which impressed the shit out of me.

- Andy Johns

When we were doing Bitch, Keith was very late. Jagger and Mick Taylor had been playing the song without him and it didn't sound very good. I walked out of the kitchen and he was sitting on the floor with no shoes, eating a bowl of cereal. Suddenly he said, Oi, Andy! Give me that guitar. I handed him his clear Dan Armstrong Plexiglass guitar, he put it on, kicked the song up in tempo, and just put the vibe right on it. Instantly, it went from being this laconic mess into a real groove. And I thought, Wow. THAT'S what he does.

- Andy Johns, 2007

[timeisonourside.com]

In comparison to their solo albums there are far more songs that sound like Stones songs on Keith's albums than on Mick's.

Lately it's been stated that Keith has contributed a lot less than Mick. Although at times that seems to make sense, when listening to VOODOO or BRIDGES or BANG I don't hear anything different than previous albums. Just as with Moonlight Mile Keith is not on Saint Of Me but there's plenty of Keith on all of those albums. It's obvious which songs Mick had finished and Keith simply played Keith Richards on the track - I Go Wild, Out Of Tears, Already Over Me, Gunface, Juiced, Rain Fall Down and Don't Stop are perfect examples.

The BRIDGES songs sound like Mick solo songs where as the rest sound like Stones songs, just as Sway and Moonlight Mile sound like Stones songs.

"Some songs are Jagger, some songs are Richards, and some songs are Jagger/Richards"

I forgot where I read that, but I think Jagger said it.

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gotdablouse
Keith may have had wonderful ideas for riffs but without Mick (and others like Jimmy Miller) to put them into shape no one would have paid attention. It's not like he came to the sessions with finished demos like Mick has been doing since at least SW and even more so since 2002. Bit of a chicken and egg thing of course but at the end of the day the "Jagger-Richards" team credits certainly seem very much "deserved"...well at least until B2B, nowadays it's more of a "brand" but it's not going to change now.

Up until 1967 Keith wrote 80% of all songs. He was the one with the melodies, riffs, structure and most of the lyrics.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

Up until 1967 Keith wrote 80% of all songs. He was the one with the melodies, riffs, structure and most of the lyrics.

Mathijs

I get Keith wrote toplines and hooks like "I can't get no satisfaction," and all of Ruby Tuesday. But we don't think Mick wrote the entirety of lyrics to Paint It Black, Get Off of My Cloud, 19th Nervous Breakdown, etc.?

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Mathijs

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gotdablouse
Keith may have had wonderful ideas for riffs but without Mick (and others like Jimmy Miller) to put them into shape no one would have paid attention. It's not like he came to the sessions with finished demos like Mick has been doing since at least SW and even more so since 2002. Bit of a chicken and egg thing of course but at the end of the day the "Jagger-Richards" team credits certainly seem very much "deserved"...well at least until B2B, nowadays it's more of a "brand" but it's not going to change now.

Up until 1967 Keith wrote 80% of all songs. He was the one with the melodies, riffs, structure and most of the lyrics.

Mathijs

I understand that up until 1967, Keith came up with the structure and riffs.

Where does the Keith "wrote most of the lyrics come from"? This does not seem correct. (I think you mean Jagger wrote 80% of the lyrics until 1967 ??)

As Tears Go By, Heart of Stone, Under My Thumb, Stupid Girl, Yesterdays Papers Mothers Little helper, !9th Nervous breakdown, Play With Fire, Lady Jane, Paint it Black, Satisfaction Out of Time, Have you seen your Mother, Back Street Girl .....these are all so obviously lyrically mostly Jagger if not all Jagger based on what both Keith and Jagger have said and also thinking more retrospectively in terms of how Jagger writes lyrics, both in terms lyrical structure and especially in terms of subject matter. Based on what Keith himself has said, he seems to have come up with a title to some of these songs. Among the important songs, the ones that Keith seems to have written most, or all of the lyrics are Let's Spend the Night together and Ruby Tuesday. We know less lyrically about Dandelion and We Love You and She's a Rainbow and 2000 Light years and Citadel - knowing more surely Keith had Dandelion all down musically and Jagger contributed quite a bit musically to She's A Ranbow - I recall Jagger even showing Nicky Hopkins *what to play*

Jagger seems to have written Yesterday's Papers all by himself - music and lyrics. The first song Richards "wrote entirely by himself and laid on Mick" came a couple of years later with You Got the Silver



Lyrics aside, up until 1967 musically, it makes sense that the songs written around a riff or chord progression are more obviously Keith. The Rolling stones are not a *vocal* band but those songs written around a vocal melody seem more Jagger and in many early songs the *only* melody is a vocal melody



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026-06-05 18:04 by wanderingspirit66.

I think Keith probably wrote all the lyrics to Connection.

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MelBelli
I think Keith probably wrote all the lyrics to Connection.

Yes indeed. I know and it pre-dates YGTS as a song Richards likely wrote all by himself. Jaggger also likes the song *CONNECTION* a lot. It seems to be a bit of a fan favorite on this board. It is just not a song that grabs me or interests me lyrically or musically though and hence I didn't reference it among the *important* songs until 1967.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026-06-05 19:28 by wanderingspirit66.