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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

WOAF: The Virgin Jump Back album from the 90's has Taylor listed on guitar, and he has said so himself. I have to assume he played the acoustic unless someone can prove otherwise.

For years I argued there was an acoustic and nobody believed me!

The Stones liner notes have always been awful, they don't have a clue.

It could have been anyone playing the acoustic, but with the Stones just about all acoustic overdubs were done by Keith. There's just no way to tell. Jagger did add acoustics and percussion and what more in 1981 though.

In any case, my point was that Taylor did not have a hand in writing it, or played an important role in the creation or added something that stands out, like his guitar in Tops.

Mathijs

I agree, I don't think Taylor had a hand in writing that one, or some of the other songs people have mentioned here.

I do think it's very possible he played the buried acoustic on the basic track that was leaked on the Goats-era bootleg. I also think he did this on Brown Sugar—although that one may have been buried or replaced by a later Richards acoustic.

These deconstructed tracks sometimes do have stuff in them I didn't hear before, like the CYHMK track.

If you listen to the acoustic track I do think it is Taylor -it has the same right-hand feel and timing as his rhythm playing on the 1970 and 1971 tour.

[www.youtube.com]

Mathijs

8 of 10 of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON's lyrics were written by Rogers. The two are instrumentals.

Some of Ronnie's Stones songs have a similarity to them - a central riff. Gold, Dance and Pretty Beat Up all have a similar swaggering riff. Overall there's a nice playlist of Ronnie's Stones songs, including the "inspired" songs.

Mick said Silver Train came out of a jam between him and Taylor.And why did he get credit for Criss Cross?Didn’t he say Silver Train was made out ofjamming with Mick Taylor



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026-05-17 15:16 by Taylor1.

I always figured Criss Cross was a “make up” credit, but who knows?

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GasLightStreet
8 of 10 of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON's lyrics were written by Rogers. The two are instrumentals.

Some of Ronnie's Stones songs have a similarity to them - a central riff. Gold, Dance and Pretty Beat Up all have a similar swaggering riff. Overall there's a nice playlist of Ronnie's Stones songs, including the "inspired" songs.

Please dont get me started on Waters. He was a brilliant idea man. He was not a songwriter from inception to completion, and needed David Gilmour, and to a point Richard Wright to turn his donkeys into race horses. In fact, the man was so absent of talent, that despite being Pink Floyd's "bass player", he does not even play bass on any of the major bass-oriented hits. That's Gilmour playing bass on "Money", "One of These Days", "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb", "Run Like Hell", "Mother" and the list goes on. Not only is Roger Waters not a songwriter, he's not even a musician.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026-05-18 16:56 by Jbeckerfan.

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Jbeckerfan

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GasLightStreet
8 of 10 of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON's lyrics were written by Rogers. The two are instrumentals.

Some of Ronnie's Stones songs have a similarity to them - a central riff. Gold, Dance and Pretty Beat Up all have a similar swaggering riff. Overall there's a nice playlist of Ronnie's Stones songs, including the "inspired" songs.

Please dont get me started on Waters. He was a brilliant idea man. He was not a songwriter from inception to completion, and needed David Gilmour, and to a point Richard Wright to turn his donkeys into race horses. In fact, the man was so absent of talent, that despite being Pink Floyd's "bass player", he does not even play bass on any of the major bass-oriented hits. That's Gilmour playing bass on "Money", "One of These Days", "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb", "Run Like Hell", "Mother" and the list goes on. Not only is Roger Waters not a songwriter, he's not even a musician.

I was listening to the LA 1975 release the other day.

Waters could have fooled me, because the bass is great there.

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DandelionPowderman

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Jbeckerfan

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GasLightStreet
8 of 10 of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON's lyrics were written by Rogers. The two are instrumentals.

Some of Ronnie's Stones songs have a similarity to them - a central riff. Gold, Dance and Pretty Beat Up all have a similar swaggering riff. Overall there's a nice playlist of Ronnie's Stones songs, including the "inspired" songs.

Please dont get me started on Waters. He was a brilliant idea man. He was not a songwriter from inception to completion, and needed David Gilmour, and to a point Richard Wright to turn his donkeys into race horses. In fact, the man was so absent of talent, that despite being Pink Floyd's "bass player", he does not even play bass on any of the major bass-oriented hits. That's Gilmour playing bass on "Money", "One of These Days", "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb", "Run Like Hell", "Mother" and the list goes on. Not only is Roger Waters not a songwriter, he's not even a musician.

I was listening to the LA 1975 release the other day.

Waters could have fooled me, because the bass is great there.

That's because Jbeckerfan is letting his obvious dislike of Waters colors his judgement. Most of what he said is inaccurate:

Roger plays sole bass on Money and Mother. Not that Mother is particularly known for its bass, but Money obviously is and I'm not sure where they're seeing its anyone other than Roger. On One Of These Days, both Roger and David are playing bass, because its such a bass heavy song they wanted that effect and so they both played. Not strange, as I imagine the reason it wasn't an overdub is they wanted the feel of two different bass players. On Comfortably Numb, its Roger on the verses and David on the chorus. Like Mother, not a song that's really known for its bass when its got one of the greatest guitar solos of all time, but its misleading to say its not Roger on the track.

David does indeed play bass on Hey You and Run Like Hell. But overall the idea that Roger doesn't play bass on a majority of Floyd, let alone be classified as "not a musician" is ludicrous. And I'm Jewish, I hate what the guy says recently, but that doesn't mean I lie about his past with a band I love. You were correct in your first sentence that Waters is brilliant but needed Gilmour and Wright (and Mason) to complete his vision. He couldn't do it alone, which is why his solo albums are fairly lacking. Then again, so was the Watersless Floyd and Gilmour's solo albums. They needed each other.

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RollingFreak

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DandelionPowderman

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Jbeckerfan

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GasLightStreet
8 of 10 of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON's lyrics were written by Rogers. The two are instrumentals.

Some of Ronnie's Stones songs have a similarity to them - a central riff. Gold, Dance and Pretty Beat Up all have a similar swaggering riff. Overall there's a nice playlist of Ronnie's Stones songs, including the "inspired" songs.

Please dont get me started on Waters. He was a brilliant idea man. He was not a songwriter from inception to completion, and needed David Gilmour, and to a point Richard Wright to turn his donkeys into race horses. In fact, the man was so absent of talent, that despite being Pink Floyd's "bass player", he does not even play bass on any of the major bass-oriented hits. That's Gilmour playing bass on "Money", "One of These Days", "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb", "Run Like Hell", "Mother" and the list goes on. Not only is Roger Waters not a songwriter, he's not even a musician.

I was listening to the LA 1975 release the other day.

Waters could have fooled me, because the bass is great there.

That's because Jbeckerfan is letting his obvious dislike of Waters colors his judgement. Most of what he said is inaccurate:

Roger plays sole bass on Money and Mother. Not that Mother is particularly known for its bass, but Money obviously is and I'm not sure where they're seeing its anyone other than Roger. On One Of These Days, both Roger and David are playing bass, because its such a bass heavy song they wanted that effect and so they both played. Not strange, as I imagine the reason it wasn't an overdub is they wanted the feel of two different bass players. On Comfortably Numb, its Roger on the verses and David on the chorus. Like Mother, not a song that's really known for its bass when its got one of the greatest guitar solos of all time, but its misleading to say its not Roger on the track.

David does indeed play bass on Hey You and Run Like Hell. But overall the idea that Roger doesn't play bass on a majority of Floyd, let alone be classified as "not a musician" is ludicrous. And I'm Jewish, I hate what the guy says recently, but that doesn't mean I lie about his past with a band I love. You were correct in your first sentence that Waters is brilliant but needed Gilmour and Wright (and Mason) to complete his vision. He couldn't do it alone, which is why his solo albums are fairly lacking. Then again, so was the Watersless Floyd and Gilmour's solo albums. They needed each other.

I like Pink Floyd. Even the Water-less era but that's not really anything is it.

What you just said...

They are/were all incredible musicians capable of whatever was necessary. MOON, HERE and WALL have excellent songs on them. Arc albeit oblique. DSOTM is the greatest album of all time. They can say what they want - the albums say what's necessary.

Expanding a bit on the issue being raised.Any member capable of writing something meaningful and of quality wouldn’t have had any problem contributing. If Charlie Watts had been able to come up with a “JJF” regularly, the shelves would be full of records featuring songs by Mr. Watts.

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emotionalbarbecue
Expanding a bit on the issue being raised.Any member capable of writing something meaningful and of quality wouldn’t have had any problem contributing. If Charlie Watts had been able to come up with a “JJF” regularly, the shelves would be full of records featuring songs by Mr. Watts.

I don't disagree, but one could argue Mick Jagger and Keith Richards don't really have any songs worthwhile on their own either. Whether that's age or the lack of other Stones, but the proof is right there. Same with what we just discussed about Roger Waters and David Gilmour. They could both claim they were solely responsible for things, but neither has anything on their own that even TOUCHES what Floyd was.

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RollingFreak

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emotionalbarbecue
Expanding a bit on the issue being raised.Any member capable of writing something meaningful and of quality wouldn’t have had any problem contributing. If Charlie Watts had been able to come up with a “JJF” regularly, the shelves would be full of records featuring songs by Mr. Watts.

I don't disagree, but one could argue Mick Jagger and Keith Richards don't really have any songs worthwhile on their own either. Whether that's age or the lack of other Stones, but the proof is right there. Same with what we just discussed about Roger Waters and David Gilmour. They could both claim they were solely responsible for things, but neither has anything on their own that even TOUCHES what Floyd was.

But Jagger's Wandering Spirit, Richards' Talk is Cheap and Ron Wood's I've Got My Own Album do have songs on them that are better than quite a lot of post-1983 Stones songs.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026-05-21 13:58 by Mathijs.

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Mathijs

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RollingFreak

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emotionalbarbecue
Expanding a bit on the issue being raised.Any member capable of writing something meaningful and of quality wouldn’t have had any problem contributing. If Charlie Watts had been able to come up with a “JJF” regularly, the shelves would be full of records featuring songs by Mr. Watts.

I don't disagree, but one could argue Mick Jagger and Keith Richards don't really have any songs worthwhile on their own either. Whether that's age or the lack of other Stones, but the proof is right there. Same with what we just discussed about Roger Waters and David Gilmour. They could both claim they were solely responsible for things, but neither has anything on their own that even TOUCHES what Floyd was.

But Jagger's Wandering Spirit, Richards' Talk is Cheap and Ron Wood's I've Got My Own Album do have songs on them that are better than quite a lot of post-1983 Stones songs.

Mathijs

IMO, on Slide On This as well.

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GasLightStreet

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RollingFreak

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DandelionPowderman

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Jbeckerfan

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GasLightStreet
8 of 10 of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON's lyrics were written by Rogers. The two are instrumentals.

Some of Ronnie's Stones songs have a similarity to them - a central riff. Gold, Dance and Pretty Beat Up all have a similar swaggering riff. Overall there's a nice playlist of Ronnie's Stones songs, including the "inspired" songs.

Please dont get me started on Waters. He was a brilliant idea man. He was not a songwriter from inception to completion, and needed David Gilmour, and to a point Richard Wright to turn his donkeys into race horses. In fact, the man was so absent of talent, that despite being Pink Floyd's "bass player", he does not even play bass on any of the major bass-oriented hits. That's Gilmour playing bass on "Money", "One of These Days", "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb", "Run Like Hell", "Mother" and the list goes on. Not only is Roger Waters not a songwriter, he's not even a musician.

I was listening to the LA 1975 release the other day.

Waters could have fooled me, because the bass is great there.

That's because Jbeckerfan is letting his obvious dislike of Waters colors his judgement. Most of what he said is inaccurate:

Roger plays sole bass on Money and Mother. Not that Mother is particularly known for its bass, but Money obviously is and I'm not sure where they're seeing its anyone other than Roger. On One Of These Days, both Roger and David are playing bass, because its such a bass heavy song they wanted that effect and so they both played. Not strange, as I imagine the reason it wasn't an overdub is they wanted the feel of two different bass players. On Comfortably Numb, its Roger on the verses and David on the chorus. Like Mother, not a song that's really known for its bass when its got one of the greatest guitar solos of all time, but its misleading to say its not Roger on the track.

David does indeed play bass on Hey You and Run Like Hell. But overall the idea that Roger doesn't play bass on a majority of Floyd, let alone be classified as "not a musician" is ludicrous. And I'm Jewish, I hate what the guy says recently, but that doesn't mean I lie about his past with a band I love. You were correct in your first sentence that Waters is brilliant but needed Gilmour and Wright (and Mason) to complete his vision. He couldn't do it alone, which is why his solo albums are fairly lacking. Then again, so was the Watersless Floyd and Gilmour's solo albums. They needed each other.

I like Pink Floyd. Even the Water-less era but that's not really anything is it.

What you just said...

They are/were all incredible musicians capable of whatever was necessary. MOON, HERE and WALL have excellent songs on them. Arc albeit oblique. DSOTM is the greatest album of all time. They can say what they want - the albums say what's necessary.

[www.instagram.com]

Going back a bit to the original topic to add a few comments on the development of songwriting politics within The Rolling Stones. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get it thorough. My main sources are Bill Wyman, Prince Rupert Lowenstein, and available contracts/documents.

The initial record deal Brian Jones signed in 1963 (I believe Matt Lie has the original!) promised The Rolling Stones 6 % of income from sales, while Andrew Oldham and Eric Easton would receive 14 % - more than double the amount of the band. As band leader (according to the contract) Brian Jones was promised more pay than the others. When Mick, Keith, Stu, Bill, and Charlie discovered this, it created distrust between the band and Brian. Some anger was also aimed at ALO. However, it was ALO who suggested that Jagger/Richards should begin writing songs, convincing the duo that they could make money from royalties. So, in the 60s The Rolling Stones had an unfavourable deal with ABCKO/Decca/Impact Sounds, but Mick and Keith were guaranteed royalty money by being credited as songwriters.

This contract terminated on August 31st 1970. There is an accountant letter from ABCKO sent to all Stones’ members in October 1970 showing royalty payments. Mick and Keith got paid 805,000 dollars each, while Charlie, Stu and Brian Jones’ estate only got 250 dollars. (Bill got a few dollars more because of royalties from In Another Land.) This shows that The Rolling Stones as a business, was only lucrative to Mick and Keith, and they wanted to keep it that way.

But there was one major problem that handcuffed the band, and Mick and Keith in particular.

The Rolling Stones Records was founded in 1970 with Marshall Chess as president immediately after the 1963 contract ended. But paragraph 3 of that contract said the following: The Rolling Stones were not allowed to “..perform any musical composition recorded hereunder for anyone else other than us for… In the event of a breach by you of the provisions of this paragraph (…), you shall automatically be deemed to have waived all future royalties which may accrue hereunder after the date of such breach.”

In July 1971 The Stones went to court in England against Allen Klein & ABCKO + Eric Easton and Andrew Oldham, seeking to cancel this arrangement of the 1963 contract that would impact the everlasting future of The Rolling Stones. Their main argument was that Brian Jones was no longer part of the band, and it was signed by Jones on behalf of the others without them knowing about it. Also, ALO was no longer their manager, so they wanted to be freed from any obligation agreed upon between Brian Jones and Andrew Loog Oldham/Eric Easton + Allen Klein/ABCKO. Their main goal was to get compensated for withheld royalties and gain full control over their finances and future recordings.

In February 1972 there were talks between Mick Jagger, Prince Rupert Lowenstein, and lawyer Pete Parcher vs. Allen Klein without any agreement being reached. In April 1972 the dispute went to New York Supreme Court. Bill Wyman has said that he testified in this court. (As you may know, Tumbling Dice was released on the 15th of April 1972 – in the middle of this court hearings, and Klein tried to stop this release, as well as the upcoming album which of course was Exile on Main Street.) The Stones claimed that Allen Klein owned the band 17 million dollars, but they settled for a payment far less than that – and as songwriters, Mick and Keith received most of this payment while the rest was split between the original members including Brian Jones’ estate. On the 10th of May 1972 the settlement was officially confirmed by both parties.

After this formal break with ABCKO, The Rolling Stones restructured their own organization. This was done in order to gain control of their recordings, royalties, and finances. However, ABCKO still owned publishing rights to all music recorded prior to August 31st-1970. (Another agreement was made for the Muscle Shoals recordings from 1969 that appeared on Sticky Fingers.) The new arrangement made sure that Brian Jones’ estate wouldn’t receive any income related to recordings made after 1970. Mick, Keith, Charlie, Bill, and Mick Taylor were all made permanent board members of The Rolling Stones Ltd., but Mick and Keith established some sort of veto right. It practically meant that Jagger/Richards themselves decided songwriting credits for anything released on Rolling Stones Records. That made it harder for a fresh member like Mick Taylor to get songwriting credits where it was likely deserved. And I guess that Taylor (just like Bill and Charlie had learned the hard way) got disappointed, surprised, and a bit resentful with the relatively small pay checks he received, while watching Mick & Keith accumulating more wealth.

When Mick Taylor left the band, it was economically beneficial for the others because there was one less seat around the table – meaning incomes (outside of royalties) could now be split between Mick, Keith, Charlie, and Bill. It was decided that the next guitar player would not be made a permanent member of the organization but rather be hired and paid for tours and studio works. For instance, Ron Wood’s contract from 1981 shows he was hired as a touring guitar player getting paid upfront a singular amount of 500,000 dollars.

(I guess Darryl Jones has got similar deals after Bill left; but even though Bill Wyman quit the band in 1993, he didn’t quit the company, he was still functioning as a board member of The Rolling Stones and was attending their annual meetings in London and Amsterdam in the 90s. This, I think, annoyed Mick and Keith quite a bit – and it may be the reason why Bill was erased from certain covers. But that’s just speculation from my part.)

Marshall Chess left Rolling Stones Records in 1973. He was practically replaced by Mick and Keith. That same year was also the last with last Jimmy Miller. Mick and Keith made sure that they were the producers (under the name Glimmer Twins) of every album from IORR in 1974 to Steel Wheels in 1989, hiring skilled engineers and mixers, such as Chris Kimsey, Keith Harwood and Bob Clearmountain, to do the technical stuff. This meant that Mick and Keith got paid both as songwriters and producers of all their best selling albums like Some Girls and Tattoo You. From 1994 and onwards, they’ve hired a co-producer(s) on every album such as Don Was, Dust Brothers, and Andrew Watt. This, I assume, is only because Mick and Keith couldn’t agree on sound and direction, and they needed an outside third party in order to compromise.

The 80s shows that Ron Wood (unlike Mick Taylor) got credited on a few songs. Of course, there were times when Mick and Keith didn’t get along, and that’s the main reason why Keith wrote with Ron on Dirty Work. As others have noticed, this stopped with Steel Wheels. In 1989, Mick was quoted saying he only agreed to do the Steel Wheels tour because of the money involved (Bill German for reference). This also meant that future records to promote future tours would consist of Jagger/Richards only. And as already mentioned, it was not until the 90s that Ronnie became an official member of The Rolling Stones organization (but he would not receive any songwriting credits in return).

I have missed and left out many details, but to summarize: Beneath the surface of The World’s Greatest Rock and Roll Band, there is an ocean of law, economics, and politics.

Good post, The Worst!

But they've had a co-producer since 1983.

Excellent post! But I still think that deep down they still function as any other band does. The Glimmer Twins did not became co-producers for the money, but because they wanted to take control over their creative process and because they had learned enough.

And on song writing credits I think it also works much more basic than only ‘for the money’. Keith always enters the studio with half-written songs and ideas, and he needs to bounce these on other people. The best results? With Jagger. If Jagger is not around it’s Wood, or Steve Jordan, who got a credit on Steel Wheels.

I truly think that if Wood, Taylor or anybody else could have written and would have contributed verses, choruses and hooks as good as Jagger could to the ideas of Richard’s they would have received much more writing credits.

It’s simply too difficult to compete with Jagger and Richards when it comes down to writing Rolling Stones songs.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026-05-31 12:10 by Mathijs.

Never knew Taylor was a full member of the band when he quit.According to Wyman, in June1975 , when the Bley /Bruce band broke up, he made overtures to the Stones about rejoining but was rebuffed by Mick and Keith.I wonder if the board issues had anything to do with it.More likely, they liked what Wood was doing on the 1975 tour which was underway at the time.

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DandelionPowderman
Good post, The Worst!

But they've had a co-producer since 1983.

Yes, you are right – I forgot about Steve Lillywhite as well.
One additional point: 1983 is the year Stones signed the record breaking deal with CBS (covering four albums if I remember correctly). The great war between Mick and Keith started when Keith found out that Mick intended to use this deal to release a solo album of his. I think that was the moment when Keith started writing with Ronnie. It’s fair to say that Ronnie saved The Stones in the 80s, so maybe this was part of the reason Ron was made a permanent member in the 90s – as both Mick and Keith now realized and apprecitated that he had become an essential member of the band. And Ronnie was happy that Jagger/Richards came back together.

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The Worst.
One additional point: 1983 is the year Stones signed the record breaking deal with CBS (covering four albums if I remember correctly). The great war between Mick and Keith started when Keith found out that Mick intended to use this deal to release a solo album of his. I think that was the moment when Keith started writing with Ronnie.

I just don't think it works like that in a band. It's not a conscious decision to write with someone 'because he deserves writing credits'. Keith just needs someone to bounce his ideas off to, and Jagger simply wasn't around for parts of the 1985 sessions. So Keith used Wood, and Bobby Womack, to bounce his ideas off. Jagger used Chuck Leavell. The end results show that Richards writes his best material with Jagger.

Mathijs

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The Worst.

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DandelionPowderman
Good post, The Worst!

But they've had a co-producer since 1983.

Yes, you are right – I forgot about Steve Lillywhite as well.
One additional point: 1983 is the year Stones signed the record breaking deal with CBS (covering four albums if I remember correctly). The great war between Mick and Keith started when Keith found out that Mick intended to use this deal to release a solo album of his. I think that was the moment when Keith started writing with Ronnie. It’s fair to say that Ronnie saved The Stones in the 80s, so maybe this was part of the reason Ron was made a permanent member in the 90s – as both Mick and Keith now realized and apprecitated that he had become an essential member of the band. And Ronnie was happy that Jagger/Richards came back together.

Then we have Everything Is Turning To Gold, Dance and No Use In Crying some years prior to that, all credited Jagger/Richards/Wood.

Mick Jagger is widely known as a shrewd businessman. He’s also extremely calculated. Throw in the fact he was screwed over by Klein and it’s not hard to understand why he would calculate 50% > 33.33%

Mick Taylor was coming from a world where his musical compositional injections were recognized by writing credits. Remember, his first experience was with John Mayall, who treated his guitarists like royalty, even paying for studio time and finding them jobs.

IMO, at best there was a misunderstanding and at worst Jagger promised Taylor credits and then didn’t follow through. IMO Ron Wood maximized his membership by releasing solo projects whilst being a member of the band. If they weren’t going to use his ideas, he found other avenues and I admire that about Woody.

I can't remember the source, but I remember reading that Keith made sure that Ronnie got credits on DW after seeing Mick take sole credit for songs on She's the Boss.

Keith considers songwriting as a kind of mutual ideal -- a partnership by its very nature.

To consider oneself a "singer-songwriter" on an island, to him, is a bit uppity.

I think on this forum people get so into their favourites that the truth gets bent to a point it's not true.

The big hits from the 60's were predominantly written by Keith, okay he was very generous towards sharing the credits with Mick and as for Ronnie i can't believe he's even considered along the lines of a genius like Keith who wrote tracks like Gimme Shelter, Ruby Tuesday etc.

Even if we credit Keith with two-thirds of the songs (chords and vocal melody) in the early days, lyrics are not incidental. Mick wrote most of them with very few exceptions. He was hardly just a passenger, and his role increased to full partner by 1967-68.

I don’t know the details of the contracts, but the share of the band members other than Mick and Keith can’t have been too bad considering Charlie’s estate. I know, I know that the recent huge tours were very profitable, but on all accounts, even before his standard of living wasn’t exactly miserable. The same applies to Bill.

C

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MelBelli
Even if we credit Keith with two-thirds of the songs (chords and vocal melody) in the early days, lyrics are not incidental. Mick wrote most of them with very few exceptions. He was hardly just a passenger, and his role increased to full partner by 1967-68.

You could argue that a great musical arrangement is more important than the lyrics. After all, it is the music we are listening to first. However, instrumental music aside, great lyrics add quality and depth to a song. I believe that they are both equally important.

You might start with a great musical idea or even a complete arrangement, but it doesn't truly feel like a finished product until the lyrics are written. The creative process is different every time, but lyrics definitely impact the vocal lines and chord structures.

In the end, songwriting is a tricky balancing act. Sometimes, you have an arrangement, and the perfect vocal melody and lyrics just click into place. Other times, the lyrics force you to alter the musical structure, or they expose flaws in a vocal line that you have to fix. They can also influence many other apsects, like tempo and even genre.

I'm a big Keith fan, and he inspired and co-wrote many of the greatest songs, but no one in their right mind would call Mick a passenger. Not in the sixties and not in any other decade. He was a major influence on all those classics and wrote some of the best lyrics of all time.

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MelBelli
Even if we credit Keith with two-thirds of the songs (chords and vocal melody) in the early days, lyrics are not incidental. Mick wrote most of them with very few exceptions. He was hardly just a passenger, and his role increased to full partner by 1967-68.

Be honest though, it's just words on paper, and maybe improving Keith's words, it's not writing the song, are you stretching reality to a point Mick co wrote Gimme Shelter?.

Literally there are so many people capable of writing lyrics, not anyone can compose the songs Keith has written.

Just look at Mick's solo efforts, do they sound like the Stones to you.?

They sound like someone who has been very lucky to be credited with 50% of the Stones catalogue, he hasn't come anywhere near close to that level with the exception of the tracks Mick Taylor helped him with.

Even Memo From Turner could hardly be considered a solo effort.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026-06-02 23:14 by keefriffhards.

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liddas
I don’t know the details of the contracts, but the share of the band members other than Mick and Keith can’t have been too bad considering Charlie’s estate. I know, I know that the recent huge tours were very profitable, but on all accounts, even before his standard of living wasn’t exactly miserable. The same applies to Bill.

C

Yes and no. Bill and Charlie were much more dependent on income from ticket sales (precisely because they received no royalty money). Between 1982 and 1989 there were no tours. Bill said that he had thought of leaving the band for quite some time, but didn't feel economically secure enough to do so before after Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle. From then on Charlie became much wealthier because of the mega profitable tours (Voodoo, Babylon, Licks, Bang etc.) Of course Bill and Charlie was never economically miserable compared with most people, but to make a comparison: Mick has a luxurious resort on a private island in the Caribbean and a private castle in France away from home, but whenever Bill has been touring with Rhythm Kings he’s been staying at cheap 3 stars hotel like the rest of us.

Ok, but when he was around 30, Bill could afford buying a mansion (not exactly a studio apartment) in the country. I can't remember the exact figures, but it wasn't cheap. This is only an example. If (occasionally) they were broke, it's because they actually spent loads of money, not because they earned nothing.

Then again, the topic here is not if the money was shared fairly within the Stones. The point is, did Mick and Keith allow the others to work on their own ideas and release the output as Rolling Stones songs?

If what emerges here - that songwriting in the Stones was exclusively Mick and Keith's affair - is true, why the solo work of Wyman and Taylor, for example, are not full of rock classics?

C

A valid question liddas, and I agree that Mick & Keith wrote the majority of classics released by The Rolling Stones. They are among the greatest songwriters ever, alongside Dylan & Lennon/McCartney. My initial point was that on a few, selcted songs, I do think Mick Taylor probably deserved some credit as well. But looking at the big picture, there is no discussion that Jagger/Richards are superior songwriters in comparison with Taylor, Wood and Wyman.