You can ban tobacco, but just like other drugs-alcohol included- there is a market for it. If a government bans a product that is highly in demand it will be taken over by criminals. One should ask why people use drugs. And as long as that question remains unanswered by lack of education, poverty, or in some cases even by forbidding legalisation, this problem very likely will never be solved.

let people choose by themselves...

dat vingertje hè...

Life's just a cocktail party on the street

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Mathijs

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Big Al

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skytrench
In a way I'm happy for the kids and the passive smokers, but also worried about the erosion of personal choice and the shadowy life that comes from prohibitions. Are we to be kept on rails through a hard working life ?

I think the Government is trying to be clever by attempting to phase out the habit over a length of time. I suppose they’re hoping younger generations will be put-off starting.
Look, smoking is a killer and nobody should do it, but like you, it’s freedom of choice. Prohibition doesn’t work, obviously.

It's not about freedom of choice, it is about the duty of a government to protect the people to dangerous goods. It is the duty of the government to ban the use of asbestos, or benzene in gasoline, or thinner in paint, and whatever more, when people get sick of these. In the same reasoning any government should ban tobacco.

Alcohol is different, as there is a way to safely use alcohol, and all governments have various measures in place to control or lower abuse.

Mathijs

I think it's been proven lately no amount of alcohol is good. Do I drink it? Do I know the risks? Would I quit under certain circumstances? Sure!

Prohibiting substances like this only leads to more dangerous versions on the black market.

As much as government's think they're the solution to everything the more they find out you can't protect people from they're own stupidity.

As noted, I drink (less than I used to), I have smoked, and I occasionally have a 16 oz ribeye, none of which are good for me but I know the risks and as long as I'm not hurting anyone else I should be able to choose to take them or not.

I think this is a slippery slope. If you're old enough to be drafted, drink beer, vote, get a hotel room or rent a car, you should be able to choose to have a cigarette or not. We all have our vices...

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Mathijs

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Big Al

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skytrench
In a way I'm happy for the kids and the passive smokers, but also worried about the erosion of personal choice and the shadowy life that comes from prohibitions. Are we to be kept on rails through a hard working life ?

I think the Government is trying to be clever by attempting to phase out the habit over a length of time. I suppose they’re hoping younger generations will be put-off starting.
Look, smoking is a killer and nobody should do it, but like you, it’s freedom of choice. Prohibition doesn’t work, obviously.

It's not about freedom of choice, it is about the duty of a government to protect the people to dangerous goods. It is the duty of the government to ban the use of asbestos, or benzene in gasoline, or thinner in paint, and whatever more, when people get sick of these. In the same reasoning any government should ban tobacco.

Alcohol is different, as there is a way to safely use alcohol, and all governments have various measures in place to control or lower abuse.

Mathijs

Safe way to use alcohol? Please explain. Would you rather meet another driver on the road who has just had 10 beers or 10 cigarettes? Drunk driving is illegal you might reply. Yes, but the alcohol itself isn’t banned. As much as you know about guitars, and I appreciate that, you are way off on this, respectfully.

I have never smoked but I wonder where will the do gooders go next.

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NashvilleBlues

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Mathijs

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Big Al

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skytrench
In a way I'm happy for the kids and the passive smokers, but also worried about the erosion of personal choice and the shadowy life that comes from prohibitions. Are we to be kept on rails through a hard working life ?

I think the Government is trying to be clever by attempting to phase out the habit over a length of time. I suppose they’re hoping younger generations will be put-off starting.
Look, smoking is a killer and nobody should do it, but like you, it’s freedom of choice. Prohibition doesn’t work, obviously.

It's not about freedom of choice, it is about the duty of a government to protect the people to dangerous goods. It is the duty of the government to ban the use of asbestos, or benzene in gasoline, or thinner in paint, and whatever more, when people get sick of these. In the same reasoning any government should ban tobacco.

Alcohol is different, as there is a way to safely use alcohol, and all governments have various measures in place to control or lower abuse.

Mathijs

Safe way to use alcohol? Please explain. Would you rather meet another driver on the road who has just had 10 beers or 10 cigarettes? Drunk driving is illegal you might reply. Yes, but the alcohol itself isn’t banned. As much as you know about guitars, and I appreciate that, you are way off on this, respectfully.

It's perfectly safe to drink a glass of wine with your meal. It's perfectly ok to drink 4 beers once in a while and take a taxi home.

Mathijs

Prohibitions don't work

It's kind of a mommy state down there. The US wouldn't do it as there is big money in tobacco. Not saying the ban is right or wrong.

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Mathijs

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NashvilleBlues

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Mathijs

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Big Al

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skytrench
In a way I'm happy for the kids and the passive smokers, but also worried about the erosion of personal choice and the shadowy life that comes from prohibitions. Are we to be kept on rails through a hard working life ?

I think the Government is trying to be clever by attempting to phase out the habit over a length of time. I suppose they’re hoping younger generations will be put-off starting.
Look, smoking is a killer and nobody should do it, but like you, it’s freedom of choice. Prohibition doesn’t work, obviously.

It's not about freedom of choice, it is about the duty of a government to protect the people to dangerous goods. It is the duty of the government to ban the use of asbestos, or benzene in gasoline, or thinner in paint, and whatever more, when people get sick of these. In the same reasoning any government should ban tobacco.

Alcohol is different, as there is a way to safely use alcohol, and all governments have various measures in place to control or lower abuse.

Mathijs

Safe way to use alcohol? Please explain. Would you rather meet another driver on the road who has just had 10 beers or 10 cigarettes? Drunk driving is illegal you might reply. Yes, but the alcohol itself isn’t banned. As much as you know about guitars, and I appreciate that, you are way off on this, respectfully.

It's perfectly safe to drink a glass of wine with your meal. It's perfectly ok to drink 4 beers once in a while and take a taxi home.

Mathijs

Drinking can cloud judgment. After a few drinks maybe someone chooses to drive and crashes. Cigarette smoking does not impair driving (unless maybe you catch your car on fire). Still confused why you think smoking should be outlawed but drinking should not be. The logic escapes me.

This thread is about New Zealand making legislation where anyone born after 2008 will never be able to buy cigarettes or tobacco products.

This thread is not about drinking or smoking in general.

I am sure most people agree that smoking is not good for your health. Also, I am sure most people would be happy to know that their children and grandchildren would not risk death from illness due to smoking.

Tobacco kills more than 8 million people each year. More than 7 million of those deaths are the result of direct tobacco use while around 1.2 million are the result of non-smokers being exposed to second-hand smoke. May 24, 2022

Tobacco (WHO)

Bjornulf

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Mathijs

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NashvilleBlues

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Mathijs

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Big Al

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skytrench
In a way I'm happy for the kids and the passive smokers, but also worried about the erosion of personal choice and the shadowy life that comes from prohibitions. Are we to be kept on rails through a hard working life ?

I think the Government is trying to be clever by attempting to phase out the habit over a length of time. I suppose they’re hoping younger generations will be put-off starting.
Look, smoking is a killer and nobody should do it, but like you, it’s freedom of choice. Prohibition doesn’t work, obviously.

It's not about freedom of choice, it is about the duty of a government to protect the people to dangerous goods. It is the duty of the government to ban the use of asbestos, or benzene in gasoline, or thinner in paint, and whatever more, when people get sick of these. In the same reasoning any government should ban tobacco.

Alcohol is different, as there is a way to safely use alcohol, and all governments have various measures in place to control or lower abuse.

Mathijs

Safe way to use alcohol? Please explain. Would you rather meet another driver on the road who has just had 10 beers or 10 cigarettes? Drunk driving is illegal you might reply. Yes, but the alcohol itself isn’t banned. As much as you know about guitars, and I appreciate that, you are way off on this, respectfully.

It's perfectly safe to drink a glass of wine with your meal. It's perfectly ok to drink 4 beers once in a while and take a taxi home.

Mathijs

Not trying to be a holy roller here by any means, and I've just had 2 Blue Moons, but science says differently:

NPR: No Amount of Alcohol Safe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-12-21 05:26 by kovach.

crossing the street is also dangerous. lets forbid that too

Life's just a cocktail party on the street

Black market tobacco

NZ has a socialized Public Health Care system, supplemented by a Private system as well

This was sold as a way to reduce harm & cost. That claim was dubious as the Tax collected more than covered the associated cost, it's the Volume of Chronic Disease that NZ is trying to shift.

The greatest demand is in obesity related conditions, colon & skin cancer. It's a pragmatic distribution of resource in such a system, take away the causation & resultant treatment from one avoidable area to bolster the other area of need, Diabetes, Kidney disease, amputations, rehabilitation etc.

Socialized Medicine constantly has to realign to societies ails. In Canada, UK, Oz everywhere except the USA

What one must not exclude when thinking about tobacco is its production: There's still colonial dependencies in place and tobacco fields are often tied to deforestation and endangering people around it because of chemicals and stuff, let alone the exploitation of the people forced to work on those fields. Also, tobacco plants use up a lot of water, that in the future will need to be used otherwise. But of course, the water argument will only convince people who also stopped eating meat because of its waste of water and nutritional calories...
The rational part of me welcomes the ban. The romantic pseudo-philosophical Sartre and Richards loving part not so much...

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MononoM
crossing the street is also dangerous. lets forbid that too

No...No...and No...this is not about forbidding...its about educating....inform yourself...if you cross the street and don't look you might get killed....so look both ways...same with eating crap...like sugar, salt, or drinking....and especially smoking....1/2 cigarettes now and then might not kill you, but a pack a day for 10/15 years will affect you and the consequences friend are not pleasant.

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Rip This

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MononoM
crossing the street is also dangerous. lets forbid that too

No...No...and No...this is not about forbidding...its about educating....inform yourself...if you cross the street and don't look you might get killed....so look both ways...same with eating crap...like sugar, salt, or drinking....and especially smoking....1/2 cigarettes now and then might not kill you, but a pack a day for 10/15 years will affect you and the consequences friend are not pleasant.

Educating? Everyone knows it's dangerous. Making it illegal infringes on personal freedom.

Should alcohol be illegal?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-01-13 22:18 by NashvilleBlues.

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crholmstrom
It's kind of a mommy state down there. The US wouldn't do it as there is big money in tobacco. Not saying the ban is right or wrong.

It sure has become a mommy state down here. These idiots should be voted out this year, if not, then the next generation will become dependent on them. Maybe that’s exactly their plan … state dependence in all things

It is a waste of time discussing politics on IORR. Smoking and drinking is all about politics. If you smoke, then you have a bias. If you drink, you do have a bias. Also, if you do not like government rules, you do have a bias.

Bjornulf

I smoked cigarettes for almost 40 yrs, so glad I quit recently.
Said to myself if Keef can quit so could I.
I read Alan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit" during the pandemic.
Been cigarette free for almost 3 yrs now.

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spikenyc
I smoked cigarettes for almost 40 yrs, so glad I quit recently.
Said to myself if Keef can quit so could I.
I read Alan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit" during the pandemic.
Been cigarette free for almost 3 yrs now.

Nice, congratulations. Have you noticed a change in your lifestyle, or health generally? Do you 'feel' better?

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spikenyc
I smoked cigarettes for almost 40 yrs, so glad I quit recently.
Said to myself if Keef can quit so could I.
I read Alan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit" during the pandemic.
Been cigarette free for almost 3 yrs now.

Congratulations to you. I cheated. I merely switched from cigarettes to ‘vaping’ in December 2014. I’m still hopelessly addicted to nicotine. What’s bizarre, is that 350,000 of those who took up vaping last year in the U.K., were not previously smokers of cigarettes. The ‘supposed’ ‘saviour’ that is e-cigarettes is getting thousands hooked, whilst many medics hail it as something that’s ridding people of their smoking habit.

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treaclefingers

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spikenyc
I smoked cigarettes for almost 40 yrs, so glad I quit recently.
Said to myself if Keef can quit so could I.
I read Alan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit" during the pandemic.
Been cigarette free for almost 3 yrs now.

Nice, congratulations. Have you noticed a change in your lifestyle, or health generally? Do you 'feel' better?

Thanks!
Yes I do feel better.
I do not weez or cough when I go to bed or when waking.
Most noticeable was last winter on the ski slopes when I could ski top to bottom without stopping for a breath.
Also now have more money to spend on Stones tickets!

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Big Al

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spikenyc
I smoked cigarettes for almost 40 yrs, so glad I quit recently.
Said to myself if Keef can quit so could I.
I read Alan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit" during the pandemic.
Been cigarette free for almost 3 yrs now.

Congratulations to you. I cheated. I merely switched from cigarettes to ‘vaping’ in December 2014. I’m still hopelessly addicted to nicotine. What’s bizarre, is that 350,000 of those who took up vaping last year in the U.K., were not previously smokers of cigarettes. The ‘supposed’ ‘saviour’ that is e-cigarettes is getting thousands hooked, whilst many medics hail it as something that’s ridding people of their smoking habit.

Thank you!
I also tried the vapes, and it gave me a sore throat compared to regular cigs.
Sorry but vaping is just substituting one drug for another.

If you are seriously trying to quit vaping and nicotine you should read Allen Carr's book.
It addresses vaping and other addictions.
Good luck!

[www.allencarr.com]

Also on Amazon

It's a no-brainer to me. Toxic goods that damages peoples health and causes death shouldn't be allowed to sell to the public. We don't allow toxic substances in food or other things that affects human health so why should we allow companies to sell things to the public that damages their health in the short and long run? I don't buy this egoistic neoliberalism that so many fancies. I see no good in it at all. Except for the tobacco companies maybe, making money on peoples bad health (and in many cases death)...

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Stoneage
It's a no-brainer to me. Toxic goods that damages peoples health and causes death shouldn't be allowed to sell to the public. We don't allow toxic substances in food or other things that affects human health so why should we allow companies to sell things to the public that damages their health in the short and long run? I don't buy this egoistic neoliberalism that so many fancies. I see no good in it at all. Except for the tobacco companies maybe, making money on peoples bad health (and in many cases death)...

Coincidentally, I just posted a complaint a few hours ago about a company that sells things to the public that most certainly damages their health in the short and long run! [iorr.org]

Should we stop Applebee's from selling their toxic garbage (masquerading as food)?

Drew

Here in the states I have an app channel on Roku from Shu Shostak. One of his channels within the app shows nothing but shows from the late 40s, 50s, and a few early 60s. For nostalgia purposes he leaves in the commercials, most of which are for beer, and cigarettes. These were family shows, mind you, they were pushing their products on.

Cigarettes may be gone from most advertising mediums, but there's a new questionable product, gambling. Big time celebrities are hawking betting sites for sports. They get richer, promoting an evil to people who can't afford it. I don't see how gambling, illegal, or state sponsored, are much different from each other. Lives can be wrecked. It's an addiction for some. Maybe you won't get your kneecaps busted by the state, but they'll get their money, somehow.

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spikenyc
I smoked cigarettes for almost 40 yrs, so glad I quit recently.
Said to myself if Keef can quit so could I.
I read Alan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit" during the pandemic.
Been cigarette free for almost 3 yrs now.

just out of curiosity

did keith quiting really inspire you to quit?

did it inspire anyone else to quit?