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dcba

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GasLightStreet

Matt Sorum is a fantastic rigid drummer - zero swing.

And this is eactly the drummer Slash wanted : a hard-hitter who could play 3hrs gigs. Imo that was part of Slash's vision for the band after 1990 :turning it into a Led Zeppelin influenced act.
An impressive singer (Plant ---> Axl Rose) a virtuoso guitarist (Page ---> Slash) and a powerhouse drummer (Bonham ---> Sorum) that was the plan.

In that Izzy had very little room to exist. And live, his guitar was very low in the FOH mix in 1991.

Said differently : in 87-89 the band was Stones-influenced : twin guitars, short gigs, subtle swinging drumming by Adler.

In 91-93 it was Led Zeppelin influenced. It didn't last long.

I was 13 when the illusions albums were released and while listening to them for the first time I thought “this is our Zeppelin”. Not saying they were better or similar, but the range of the material made me think it. Everything on that album was bigger, epic and more Rock. Lots of instrumentation and and a range of styles.

Izzy was not forced, but had to walk given where he came from musically. He was from the Thunders Richards Punk background and it all got too MTV and self important by 91. GnR just stunk of bullshit by 92. Million dollar videos and Axl’s costume changes every song. They lost their roots when Izzy left, and one third of the songwriting team.

You rarely heard any guitar player other than slash live which was a disgrace. Izzys no Slash but he had a funky punk style and could play some tasty leads. He was turned down earlier than 91…. On Appetite Izzys in your left ear and Slash your right. You can hear his playing clearly.

I saw GnR in 92 and the whole gig it was great, but I couldn’t help thinking it would be brilliant if Izzy was here, Dust n Bones, 14 Years, I’d love to have seen an Izzy led tune that day…

All good points but Izzy had really poor stage presence, especially as a singer. I remember buying a VHS tape (Pro shot) at a record fair in London in February 1992 with either 14 years or DnB (or both?) on it sung by Izzy and it was a bit of a snooze sadly. Maybe these can be found on YT.

I'd say they lost more than 1/3 of the writing section when Izzy left, more like 45% overall and 85% for the music (other than the melodies) a bit like if the Stones had lost Keith instead of Brian or Taylor. Sure, Izzy needed Axl's "vision" (like Keith needs Mick) since he never produced anything memorable after he left but without him there would have been no GnR and they failed to recognize that when they got back together, such a shame. We'd probably have a new album by now if they had.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-12-25 11:34 by gotdablouse.

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VoodooLounge13
GNR might be the only band that surpasses the Stones in carting around a tour of past hits and is no longer really relevant to the modern music world. The Stones at least invented Rock Royalty and have so many things on which to base their laurels. For GNR much of the legacy hinges on Axl’s drama and shenanigans. They put out some great music and are - or were - incredible live but 5.5 albums worth of material mostly made 30+ years ago makes even our boys look prolific.

Well, there is what Mike Love drags around as his pathetic excuse as "The Beach Boys". Mick's fear was the Stones turning into them in 2002! Mick's fear came true right at the time he stopped caring about it.

GNR though. There's probably nothing they can do now in terms of new music that will grab anyone. The newest material they've released was unlistenable. Way back when it mattered they had a drive (until Axl wanted to be Elton and gave birth to the biggest waste of music ever released in rock with November Rain). Now they're just a fat and ever expanding reissue of the same butter roll bag.

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GasLightStreet

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VoodooLounge13
GNR might be the only band that surpasses the Stones in carting around a tour of past hits and is no longer really relevant to the modern music world. The Stones at least invented Rock Royalty and have so many things on which to base their laurels. For GNR much of the legacy hinges on Axl’s drama and shenanigans. They put out some great music and are - or were - incredible live but 5.5 albums worth of material mostly made 30+ years ago makes even our boys look prolific.

Well, there is what Mike Love drags around as his pathetic excuse as "The Beach Boys". Mick's fear was the Stones turning into them in 2002! Mick's fear came true right at the time he stopped caring about it.

GNR though. There's probably nothing they can do now in terms of new music that will grab anyone. The newest material they've released was unlistenable. Way back when it mattered they had a drive (until Axl wanted to be Elton and gave birth to the biggest waste of music ever released in rock with November Rain). Now they're just a fat and ever expanding reissue of the same butter roll bag.

Very harsh in many ways imo

Guns N Roses needs Izzy. For the reasons gotdablouse mentioned, but also just any real GNR fan knows that. If you don't, which there are a lot of those GNR fans, I truly don't think you understand the music you claim to love.

Axl is a prima dona but a hell of a singer and frontman. Even nowadays, although I wish he talked and addressed the audience more. So much wasted opportunity. If they could ever get him off the couch and into the studio, I still think it would be great cause he'd have better material than what he had with Chinese.

Slash was my idol, and in the last 10 years he's really fallen off my pedestal. Guy is still great. He's a fantastic guitar player and has made some great music with Guns, Snakepit (truly underrated) and Velvet Revolver. But when he came crawling back to Axl, agreed to play Chinese songs without insisting on any of his stuff (which is as GNR as Chinese is) and generally just letting Axl run the show and NOT reunite properly, you kinda realized he's just a cash whore and pretty spineless. Glad they exist in the form that is out there today, but Slash lost all credibility to me. I never thought he'd do the reunion wrong and I don't not see him now, but I'm not gonna lie and pretend he did a 180.

Hey, Slash's got that big divorce to pay off...

BTW if anyone needs these 19 CDS I found a working torrent here [archive.org]

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

I remember Izzy saying nothing really worked song wise with Sorum. Izzy can play straight ahead or with great groove. Sorum just isn't a groove player at all. I could see sorum jumping straight ahead on new groove ideas and it just not working. Yes, he can play the timing, and even fills but the groove is everything in most great songs.

When did Izzy say this ? I'm not a drumming expert but it seems to me that "14 Years" and "Dust and Bones" groove along pretty nicely and that was Sorum on drums apparently ?

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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Markdog
I remember Izzy saying nothing really worked song wise with Sorum. Izzy can play straight ahead or with great groove. Sorum just isn't a groove player at all. I could see sorum jumping straight ahead on new groove ideas and it just not working. Yes, he can play the timing, and even fills but the groove is everything in most great songs.

Sorum: great drummer, but the groove is lost after Adler.
By the way, I can't understand that story about Adler not being able to play "Civil War". It's not such a difficult song.

IIrc Slash was relieved cos Sorum could deliver, he could "can" one song a day during the early UYI sessions (complex songs like "Coma" would take a bit more time).

So unlike Adler he was reliable and his playing was always on time. But live Sorum a bit of a bore imo.

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RollingFreak
Guns N Roses needs Izzy. For the reasons gotdablouse mentioned, but also just any real GNR fan knows that. If you don't, which there are a lot of those GNR fans, I truly don't think you understand the music you claim to love.

Axl is a prima dona but a hell of a singer and frontman. Even nowadays, although I wish he talked and addressed the audience more. So much wasted opportunity. If they could ever get him off the couch and into the studio, I still think it would be great cause he'd have better material than what he had with Chinese.

Slash was my idol, and in the last 10 years he's really fallen off my pedestal. Guy is still great. He's a fantastic guitar player and has made some great music with Guns, Snakepit (truly underrated) and Velvet Revolver. But when he came crawling back to Axl, agreed to play Chinese songs without insisting on any of his stuff (which is as GNR as Chinese is) and generally just letting Axl run the show and NOT reunite properly, you kinda realized he's just a cash whore and pretty spineless. Glad they exist in the form that is out there today, but Slash lost all credibility to me. I never thought he'd do the reunion wrong and I don't not see him now, but I'm not gonna lie and pretend he did a 180.

For all intents and purposes, Slash is a LiveNation employee and GNR isn't a real band. We don't know what went on with setlist discussions. I for one don't wanna hear any Slash solo songs in a GNR set but then the show is about an hour too long already as it is.

Sorum got much much better by the time he was in Velvet Revolver. He's not Adler, but he was more reliable and sounded fine to be their full time drummer. Adler is Adler, perfect for what they were but couldn't do everything. Sorum could, so he passed in my book. The first Velvet Revolver album is fantastic, even without Izzy.

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RollingFreak
Sorum got much much better by the time he was in Velvet Revolver. He's not Adler, but he was more reliable and sounded fine to be their full time drummer. Adler is Adler, perfect for what they were but couldn't do everything. Sorum could, so he passed in my book. The first Velvet Revolver album is fantastic, even without Izzy.

I definitely agree on that point. VR's debut was stellar. So good, that the follow-up almost never stood a chance.

They had a huge impact for such a small # of releases ... similar to Nirvana.

As for the Illusions, they are combined equivalent to 4LP release, with maybe 2 or 3 that could be left off -- the rest is fantastic!

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GasLightStreet

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VoodooLounge13
GNR might be the only band that surpasses the Stones in carting around a tour of past hits and is no longer really relevant to the modern music world. The Stones at least invented Rock Royalty and have so many things on which to base their laurels. For GNR much of the legacy hinges on Axl’s drama and shenanigans. They put out some great music and are - or were - incredible live but 5.5 albums worth of material mostly made 30+ years ago makes even our boys look prolific.

Well, there is what Mike Love drags around as his pathetic excuse as "The Beach Boys". Mick's fear was the Stones turning into them in 2002! Mick's fear came true right at the time he stopped caring about it.

GNR though. There's probably nothing they can do now in terms of new music that will grab anyone. The newest material they've released was unlistenable. Way back when it mattered they had a drive (until Axl wanted to be Elton and gave birth to the biggest waste of music ever released in rock with November Rain). Now they're just a fat and ever expanding reissue of the same butter roll bag.

I can't really count Mike Love's version of the Beach Boys as an official still in tact version of a band. Is he the only original in the band, or is Al Jardine with his version? I've never been interested in seeing them live, so I've never paid much attention.

Interestingly enough, when it came out, I was not a fan of November Rain. Now, as I've gotten older, I've grown to appreciate the song for the opus that it is. It's really a great song. I enjoy it immensely. Back then, I think it was played to death. I rarely hear it on the radio anymore, and I don't often listen to UYI these days - I have both the singular versions, and the single combined edition, which is great too, though it does omit some of my personal faves.

The song that I actually think is overblown and has not held up well is Civil War. I liked it some back in the day. These days I just find it annoying, mostly I think due to Axl's vocal performance on it, though the music I don't think is all that tremendous either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-12-27 17:00 by VoodooLounge13.

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VoodooLounge13

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GasLightStreet

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VoodooLounge13
GNR might be the only band that surpasses the Stones in carting around a tour of past hits and is no longer really relevant to the modern music world. The Stones at least invented Rock Royalty and have so many things on which to base their laurels. For GNR much of the legacy hinges on Axl’s drama and shenanigans. They put out some great music and are - or were - incredible live but 5.5 albums worth of material mostly made 30+ years ago makes even our boys look prolific.

Well, there is what Mike Love drags around as his pathetic excuse as "The Beach Boys". Mick's fear was the Stones turning into them in 2002! Mick's fear came true right at the time he stopped caring about it.

GNR though. There's probably nothing they can do now in terms of new music that will grab anyone. The newest material they've released was unlistenable. Way back when it mattered they had a drive (until Axl wanted to be Elton and gave birth to the biggest waste of music ever released in rock with November Rain). Now they're just a fat and ever expanding reissue of the same butter roll bag.

I can't really count Mike Love's version of the Beach Boys as an official still in tact version of a band. Is he the only original in the band, or is Al Jardine with his version? I've never been interested in seeing them live, so I've never paid much attention.

Interestingly enough, when it came out, I was not a fan of November Rain. Now, as I've gotten older, I've grown to appreciate the song for the opus that it is. It's really a great song. I enjoy it immensely. Back then, I think it was played to death. I rarely hear it on the radio anymore, and I don't often listen to UYI these days - I have both the singular versions, and the single combined edition, which is great too, though it does omit some of my personal faves.

The song that I actually think is overblown and has not held up well is Civil War. I liked it some back in the day. These days I just find it annoying, mostly I think due to Axl's vocal performance on it, though the music I don't think is all that tremendous either.

I think Mike Love still has Bruce Johnston, and always has in his incarnation, which is about as legitimate of a member as you can find there. I don't think the others, rightly, speak to him anymore. Al Jardine and David Marks I think regularly or sometimes tour with Brian, and with Dennis and Carl gone thats all the living "real" ones.

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RollingFreak

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VoodooLounge13

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GasLightStreet

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VoodooLounge13
GNR might be the only band that surpasses the Stones in carting around a tour of past hits and is no longer really relevant to the modern music world. The Stones at least invented Rock Royalty and have so many things on which to base their laurels. For GNR much of the legacy hinges on Axl’s drama and shenanigans. They put out some great music and are - or were - incredible live but 5.5 albums worth of material mostly made 30+ years ago makes even our boys look prolific.

Well, there is what Mike Love drags around as his pathetic excuse as "The Beach Boys". Mick's fear was the Stones turning into them in 2002! Mick's fear came true right at the time he stopped caring about it.

GNR though. There's probably nothing they can do now in terms of new music that will grab anyone. The newest material they've released was unlistenable. Way back when it mattered they had a drive (until Axl wanted to be Elton and gave birth to the biggest waste of music ever released in rock with November Rain). Now they're just a fat and ever expanding reissue of the same butter roll bag.

I can't really count Mike Love's version of the Beach Boys as an official still in tact version of a band. Is he the only original in the band, or is Al Jardine with his version? I've never been interested in seeing them live, so I've never paid much attention.

Interestingly enough, when it came out, I was not a fan of November Rain. Now, as I've gotten older, I've grown to appreciate the song for the opus that it is. It's really a great song. I enjoy it immensely. Back then, I think it was played to death. I rarely hear it on the radio anymore, and I don't often listen to UYI these days - I have both the singular versions, and the single combined edition, which is great too, though it does omit some of my personal faves.

The song that I actually think is overblown and has not held up well is Civil War. I liked it some back in the day. These days I just find it annoying, mostly I think due to Axl's vocal performance on it, though the music I don't think is all that tremendous either.

I think Mike Love still has Bruce Johnston, and always has in his incarnation, which is about as legitimate of a member as you can find there. I don't think the others, rightly, speak to him anymore. Al Jardine and David Marks I think regularly or sometimes tour with Brian, and with Dennis and Carl gone thats all the living "real" ones.

Thank you for that insight, RollingFreak. I was not aware.

Yeah I don't think UYI has aged that well, unlike Appetite. It's just lacking in memorable tracks and terribly bloated, a bit like Oasis's "Be Here Now". Stuff like "Get in the Ring" might have generated interest at the time but now it's embarrassing TBH and sums up all that had gone wrong with this band.

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IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

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gotdablouse
Yeah I don't think UYI has aged that well, unlike Appetite. It's just lacking in memorable tracks and terribly bloated, a bit like Oasis's "Be Here Now". Stuff like "Get in the Ring" might have generated interest at the time but now it's embarrassing TBH and sums up all that had gone wrong with this band.

The thing I always hold in mind while judging the Illusions albums is it was a dump of everything they had at that time. They threw it all out there. Not all of it was good, some of it has aged badly, some of the production and vocal overdubs bad at the time have aged really badly. They lyrics are cringe in places, but at least they threw it all out there. What they really had was one good double album.

Be Here Now sounded bloated back in the day but had some really great tracks. The truck drivers change on a few tunes and length of the tunes made it sound more bloated than it really was.

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gotdablouse
Yeah I don't think UYI has aged that well, unlike Appetite. It's just lacking in memorable tracks and terribly bloated

Yeah that was a strange case of a double album where artists decided to put the B-grade material along with A-grade stuff.

That was not what a double-album was supposed to be : Exile or "Blonde On Blonde" only have A-grade material. Obvious hits & deep cuts but great stuff.

What's funny is G&R arch-enemies (Metallica) made exactly the same mistake 5 years later the "Load"/"Reload" duet : great tracks and throwaway stuff released together.

From Sorum's book :

"The next night [1993-01-15], it was time for our first gig. Ronnie was there, backstage, and one of us said, “Ronnie, you want to come up and play ‘Knocking on Heaven’s Door’ with us?”
“Oh yeah, I know that one, yeah, yeah!” he said.
“Cool,” said Slash. “It’s really easy, like three chords—G, D, C, and A minor.”
“Oh, A minor,” said Ronnie, “the saddest of all the chords.”

Ronnie’s appearance onstage was memorable to say the least. During the first eight bars, he just walked around the stage with his guitar hanging from his shoulder and a cigarette at one corner of his mouth.
Then he went over to Slash and put an arm around him, nodding at the crowd. He moved on to Duff after that, and did the same there. When he finally played a chord, it was the wrong one. In fact, he didn’t play a single chord right— three chords, and they were all wrong. But he looked cool as shit"

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GasLightStreet

until Axl wanted to be Elton

That would be, what, about two years before the release of Appetite for Destruction?
Ok, just kidding. Axl wanted to be Elton since he could listen to the radio. And that is just as it should be.

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Paddy

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gotdablouse
Yeah I don't think UYI has aged that well, unlike Appetite. It's just lacking in memorable tracks and terribly bloated, a bit like Oasis's "Be Here Now". Stuff like "Get in the Ring" might have generated interest at the time but now it's embarrassing TBH and sums up all that had gone wrong with this band.

The thing I always hold in mind while judging the Illusions albums is it was a dump of everything they had at that time. They threw it all out there. Not all of it was good, some of it has aged badly, some of the production and vocal overdubs bad at the time have aged really badly. They lyrics are cringe in places, but at least they threw it all out there. What they really had was one good double album.

Be Here Now sounded bloated back in the day but had some really great tracks. The truck drivers change on a few tunes and length of the tunes made it sound more bloated than it really was.

I like all of Use Your Illusion, but what you said is definitely true and I think why its aged decently, or is still kinda well regarded. It works better BECAUSE they broke up afterward and this was it. They are big off two albums, Appetite and the Illusions, so thankfully that second one was 2 double albums. While there was no band, you had no choice but to get used to some of those songs, which is what I and many other fans did and now I kinda like everything. Some of it sucks: I've never liked Double Talkin Jive (its a little better live), Garden Of Eden is horrible, a repeat Don't Cry is unnecessary and My World isn't a real song. But the rest, over 2 decades I have come to love simply because this band just didn't exist but I still loved them. If they put out record after record, I might think less of these, but the "getting everything out there" was perfect because they then just broke up.

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dcba
That was not what a double-album was supposed to be : Exile or "Blonde On Blonde" only have A-grade material. Obvious hits & deep cuts but great stuff.

I love Exile, but I'll argue every day that not EVERYTHING on Exile is A grade material. It all works together, and the songs on the record make the record what it is, but on their own I Just Want To See His Face, kinda Shake Your Hips and Casino Boogie, Turd On The Run. Even Sweet Black Angel. I like those songs, wouldn't want them not on the record, but I can't say they are grade A material like the rest of that album. Everything on The White Album isn't grade A material. But you take some of those songs off and its no longer The White Album.

Blonde On Blonde is a rare double record with not a single bad song on it though.

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dcba
From Sorum's book :

"The next night [1993-01-15], it was time for our first gig. Ronnie was there, backstage, and one of us said, “Ronnie, you want to come up and play ‘Knocking on Heaven’s Door’ with us?”
“Oh yeah, I know that one, yeah, yeah!” he said.
“Cool,” said Slash. “It’s really easy, like three chords—G, D, C, and A minor.”
“Oh, A minor,” said Ronnie, “the saddest of all the chords.”

Ronnie’s appearance onstage was memorable to say the least. During the first eight bars, he just walked around the stage with his guitar hanging from his shoulder and a cigarette at one corner of his mouth.
Then he went over to Slash and put an arm around him, nodding at the crowd. He moved on to Duff after that, and did the same there. When he finally played a chord, it was the wrong one. In fact, he didn’t play a single chord right— three chords, and they were all wrong. But he looked cool as shit"

I was there. Tokyo Dome, 15 January, 1993, the final night of GNR’ three dome shows. I don’t remember much except that, true to form, the show start was delayed over an hour or so, it was a good, long show despite that and Ronnie joined in KOHD. From a distance, I don’t recollect how Ronnie was, though — he just did his usual ‘Woody thing’, i.e. moving around onstage restlessly.

Ronnie was touring Japan at the same time and finished the dates at the Budokan on the 14th, which clashed with GNR’ second dome show. I saw him in Osaka, the tour opener, and felt disappointed that he didn’t play I Can Feel The Fire, which he did in Tokyo. Typical.

FWIW I wasn’t a fan of UYI, but one of the songs GNR performed that night and left a lasting impression was So Fine, the Duff MaKagan song dedicated to the late Johnny Thunders.

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dcba
From Sorum's book :

"The next night [1993-01-15], it was time for our first gig. Ronnie was there, backstage, and one of us said, “Ronnie, you want to come up and play ‘Knocking on Heaven’s Door’ with us?”
“Oh yeah, I know that one, yeah, yeah!” he said.
“Cool,” said Slash. “It’s really easy, like three chords—G, D, C, and A minor.”
“Oh, A minor,” said Ronnie, “the saddest of all the chords.”

[...]"

Not everyone's opinion as to A minor being the saddest of all the chords (or keys):

video: [www.youtube.com]

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xke38

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dcba
From Sorum's book :

"The next night [1993-01-15], it was time for our first gig. Ronnie was there, backstage, and one of us said, “Ronnie, you want to come up and play ‘Knocking on Heaven’s Door’ with us?”
“Oh yeah, I know that one, yeah, yeah!” he said.
“Cool,” said Slash. “It’s really easy, like three chords—G, D, C, and A minor.”
“Oh, A minor,” said Ronnie, “the saddest of all the chords.”

[...]"

Not everyone's opinion as to A minor being the saddest of all the chords (or keys):

video: [www.youtube.com]

><

"he didn’t play a single chord right— three chords, and they were all wrong"

Re-thinking of that one, I imagine nobody told Honest Ron G&R tuned a semitone lower, so the real chords were G flat, D flat etc.

If Ron showed up onstage with a guitar tuned to "normal" concert tuning it's logical he played wrong chords...

The intended Jeff Beck - Locomotive guest spot at the Paris 92 gig would have been killer to see. Pity Jeff had ear issues and had to pull out. Here’s a rehearsal with Beck minus you know who…..

[m.youtube.com]