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Doxa
But back to Ronnie. One thing that I have never seen a good explanation is why, since DIRTY WORK sessions, he is almost totally neclected or ignored by Mick and Keith. Taking how inner circle he once was, they - or any of the Stones - are not involved in his solo projects, nor he is asked to contribute into their solo projects, or his ideas/song sketches welcomed any longer to Stones sessions (I intentionally leave room for some counter examples here...) - Doxa
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Doxa
... why, since DIRTY WORK sessions, he is almost totally neclected or ignored by Mick and Keith. Taking how inner circle he once was, they - or any of the Stones - are not involved in his solo projects, nor he is asked to contribute into their solo projects, or his ideas/song sketches welcomed any longer to Stones sessions (I intentionally leave room for some counter examples here...)
- Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
Seemingly, it was thanks to Keith that Ronnie wound up on two Mick-tracks in 2017.
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LeonidPQuote
Doxa
... why, since DIRTY WORK sessions, he is almost totally neclected or ignored by Mick and Keith. Taking how inner circle he once was, they - or any of the Stones - are not involved in his solo projects, nor he is asked to contribute into their solo projects, or his ideas/song sketches welcomed any longer to Stones sessions (I intentionally leave room for some counter examples here...)
- Doxa
in my opinion, Keith's '77 Toronto bust was the beginning of the end. They really no longer lived with each other for their recording sessions and started doing things individually. Most of it makes sense, that was when the clean ups / rehabs started, they started taking families more seriously, and simply grew apart. Sad for the fans, but probably better for them.
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Rocky DijonQuote
Doxa
But back to Ronnie. One thing that I have never seen a good explanation is why, since DIRTY WORK sessions, he is almost totally neclected or ignored by Mick and Keith. Taking how inner circle he once was, they - or any of the Stones - are not involved in his solo projects, nor he is asked to contribute into their solo projects, or his ideas/song sketches welcomed any longer to Stones sessions (I intentionally leave room for some counter examples here...) - Doxa
Probably worth noting Mick hasn't worked with Dave Stewart for over a decade. Time often stands still for us like thinking of Darryl as "new" when he was the bass player for 29 of their 60 years. Matt Clifford needed to protect himself with a publishing deal to guarantee his fair share of what he contributes to Mick and/or The Stones. Whether or not that translates into a credit vs. a back-end deal remains to be seen where the Stones are concerned.
As for Ronnie being closed out, it's more to do with Keith and Mick going solo and Ronnie's changed status. Jane Rose told Keith after Aretha's JJF not to use Ronnie in the Winos or it would hurt the chances of the Stones reforming. Mick cited in 25x5 that Keith joining the Barbarians is what started the solo competition in his eyes. When Ronnie went off retainer and became a full member, tossing him a Jagger-Richards-Wood credit as bonus was over. Additionally, the relationship between the Glimmers became that much more tenuous once they were solo. Ronnie could no longer mediate. The Jagger-Richards-Wood triumvirate was over. Ronnie would either be highlighted with slide guitar or sidelined to come in and do a sponge job on top of Waddy or paint by numbers on a Jagger-Clifford canvas.
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Testify
But how do you compare Ronnie to Keith and Mick? The confrontation can be between Ronnie and Mick or between Ronnie and Keith.
If you really want to make a comparison with Mick and Keith then the couple Rod and Ronnie make sense.
But what is it for? All three have written or contributed to writing historical rock songs, everything else is boring.
Let's say that while this is always recognized by Mick and Keith, Ronnie struggles more, few know that he is the co-author of Gasoline Alley and other songs by Rod S., without neglecting his dignified solo career.
But the race to see who is the longest is teenage stuff.
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DoxaQuote
Rocky DijonQuote
Doxa
But back to Ronnie. One thing that I have never seen a good explanation is why, since DIRTY WORK sessions, he is almost totally neclected or ignored by Mick and Keith. Taking how inner circle he once was, they - or any of the Stones - are not involved in his solo projects, nor he is asked to contribute into their solo projects, or his ideas/song sketches welcomed any longer to Stones sessions (I intentionally leave room for some counter examples here...) - Doxa
Probably worth noting Mick hasn't worked with Dave Stewart for over a decade. Time often stands still for us like thinking of Darryl as "new" when he was the bass player for 29 of their 60 years. Matt Clifford needed to protect himself with a publishing deal to guarantee his fair share of what he contributes to Mick and/or The Stones. Whether or not that translates into a credit vs. a back-end deal remains to be seen where the Stones are concerned.
As for Ronnie being closed out, it's more to do with Keith and Mick going solo and Ronnie's changed status. Jane Rose told Keith after Aretha's JJF not to use Ronnie in the Winos or it would hurt the chances of the Stones reforming. Mick cited in 25x5 that Keith joining the Barbarians is what started the solo competition in his eyes. When Ronnie went off retainer and became a full member, tossing him a Jagger-Richards-Wood credit as bonus was over. Additionally, the relationship between the Glimmers became that much more tenuous once they were solo. Ronnie could no longer mediate. The Jagger-Richards-Wood triumvirate was over. Ronnie would either be highlighted with slide guitar or sidelined to come in and do a sponge job on top of Waddy or paint by numbers on a Jagger-Clifford canvas.
Yeah, true that about Stewart being history for a long time. It is probably that what happens nowadays in ten years, took only one year during the hectic 60's and 70's... Or my mind just don't register the recent happenings... Anyway, it would have even sounded better for the sake of argument if I had only talked about Matt in present sense and then put Dave to the same category as Taylor and Wood as Mick's 'sparring partners' of the past.
I have similar thoughts than you do about the 'fate' of Wood. Mostly it being due what happened between Mick and Keith. I have had the picture that Ronnie was the real casualty of 'WW3' and he was used as a pawn in the power struggle of Big Boys. He claims saving the Stones then, but I don't know. Could be. But he burned himself in the process if he did. But since then - the Piece Treaty of 1989 that set the rules for the New Stones Order - he cannot or is needed to mediate nor, more importantly, taking sides (interestingly, he worked pretty closely with Mick in UNDERCOVER and then with Keith in DIRTY WORK). The dilemma is that if one is not close either to Mick or Keith one cannot be in a creative inner circle of The Stones.
- Doxa
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VoodooLounge13
I actually quite enjoy Ronnie’s solo stuff, and find all of it to be far more consistent style wise than any of the others. Would I have bought any of em he wasn’t a Stone? Probably not but that’s beside the point. For me 1234 has always been my favorite, but I also think Slide on This and Feel Like Playing are equally good. Slide on Live and Live and Eclectic are both great live albums as well. This thread actually caused me to go back and re-listen to all of his albums even!!! Annnnd I did some digging and discovered that he played on a lot of other albums too and I’ve been checking out those too - most notably the Dylan albums. Now I’m far from even a mild Dylan fan. Have his greatest hits and rarely play it. Whatever he’s written anyone else can cover it better. But man these albums with Ronnie have been critical bombs and I’ve really dug them all. His voice isn’t as bad and they sorta rock. Even his Christian albums. I’m amazed. I’m starting to think his famous stuff might be his least best stuff. Might even have to dive into his catalog more. And it all started with this Ronnie thread lol
Nothing to complain about, I just believe that Ronnie is a good music writer, but I don't judge him only for his contribution within the Stones or for his solo career, but for the whole of what he has produced. He will not be at the level of Mick and Keith but surely he was the only Stones (besides Mick and Keith) to have signed some recognized rock masterpieces ... and that's enough for me.Quote
DoxaQuote
Testify
But how do you compare Ronnie to Keith and Mick? The confrontation can be between Ronnie and Mick or between Ronnie and Keith.
If you really want to make a comparison with Mick and Keith then the couple Rod and Ronnie make sense.
But what is it for? All three have written or contributed to writing historical rock songs, everything else is boring.
Let's say that while this is always recognized by Mick and Keith, Ronnie struggles more, few know that he is the co-author of Gasoline Alley and other songs by Rod S., without neglecting his dignified solo career.
But the race to see who is the longest is teenage stuff.
A good and wise point. But remember, this whole thread started with a dick contest premise... But in the end it boils down to subjective opinions: what one prefers/likes more or most. Personally I have not talked much about my own opinions (we know the arsehole analogy) especially negative ones, here at IORR lately, so I just for a change decided to give my own critical stance on this matter (Ron Wood catalog). I guess what I have written sounds harsh, but it is what it is. I guess the problem with judging Wood solo material is that it actually interests pretty small amount of us hardcore Stones fans. So those who not, or don't evaluate it very high, they don't even bother to write anything here (that's what I have done for ages). So the discussion is pretty one-sided, since only big Ron Wood solo material fans contribute. But, by comparison, if it is Keith's and especially Mick's solo works in question, almost anyone seems to be busy to comment something.
But back to the dick measurement. I think if it is Ron vs. Mick or Ron vs. Keith, Ronnie loses big time in both cases. If it is 'Mick and Keith' vs. 'Ron and Rod' it boils down to: which is a better rock and roll band, The Rolling Stones or The Faces. I don't bother to answer that one. If it would be 'Mick and Keith' vs. 'John and Paul', now that would be more even match...
- Doxa
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DoxaQuote
VoodooLounge13
I actually quite enjoy Ronnie’s solo stuff, and find all of it to be far more consistent style wise than any of the others. Would I have bought any of em he wasn’t a Stone? Probably not but that’s beside the point. For me 1234 has always been my favorite, but I also think Slide on This and Feel Like Playing are equally good. Slide on Live and Live and Eclectic are both great live albums as well. This thread actually caused me to go back and re-listen to all of his albums even!!! Annnnd I did some digging and discovered that he played on a lot of other albums too and I’ve been checking out those too - most notably the Dylan albums. Now I’m far from even a mild Dylan fan. Have his greatest hits and rarely play it. Whatever he’s written anyone else can cover it better. But man these albums with Ronnie have been critical bombs and I’ve really dug them all. His voice isn’t as bad and they sorta rock. Even his Christian albums. I’m amazed. I’m starting to think his famous stuff might be his least best stuff. Might even have to dive into his catalog more. And it all started with this Ronnie thread lol
This thread is good at least for something!
I wish I'd been in your shoes. To study the whole Dylan catalog with fresh ears... That's a helluva ride, gems jumping up from here and there, and from the places you least expect. The dude's career is incredible, full of interesting phases, and no matter what he does, the muse is almost everytime there, and he follows it pretty faithfully. A text book example of artistic career - and in my book being about the only true example of an artist stemming out of rock and pop culture (I usually hesitate to describe rock musicians as 'artists', but with Dylan I don't). And what goes for his controversial voice, it is a part of his art, his unique instrument of expression, and he does miracles with it, me thinks. No one can sing Dylan like he does.
Funny thing is that I wasn't any big Dylan fan yet when I had GIMME SOME NECK I described above. I knew his name and fame, and probably had some greatest hits album and listened it occasionally, probably just out of educating myself, like I did, say, The Beatles, but without any closer affection. Then I listened GIMME SOME NECK and "Seven Days" stood out. I was like, damn after all that Wood guy can write great tunes. And then I checked the credits and it said "Dylan". I cannot say that made me any bigger Dylan fan - that would take some years to really happen - but ley's say that made ne realize what is a difference between a great song writer and not that great. Wood never been able to convince me wrong about the first impression of his song-writing skills. (And the thing is that "Seven Days" is not that spectacular song in Dylan's oeuvre)
That said, I think Wood does a marvellous job in "Seven Days". The production is as bad as it is all over the album, but great music shines through despite of it, as it always does if there is substance. His raspy, a bit Dylan-like voice fits perfectly there (Keith's great back ups too). Great guitars too. Even better is the version in Dylan's 30th Anniversary concert (one of the highlights of the show).
If I recall right Dylan offered the song first to Clapton, but Eric wasn't interested. Wood was in the same room and said "Hey, give it to me, I'll do it" (or something to the effect). So that Bob did. A great outcome, since I don't think Eric with his clean style been able to do it as much justice as Ron did with his roughness. I think Ronnie actually 'owns' the tune. Very occasionally that happens with Dylan's tunes.
- Doxa
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LeonidPQuote
Doxa
... why, since DIRTY WORK sessions, he is almost totally neclected or ignored by Mick and Keith. Taking how inner circle he once was, they - or any of the Stones - are not involved in his solo projects, nor he is asked to contribute into their solo projects, or his ideas/song sketches welcomed any longer to Stones sessions (I intentionally leave room for some counter examples here...)
- Doxa
in my opinion, Keith's '77 Toronto bust was the beginning of the end. They really no longer lived with each other for their recording sessions and started doing things individually. Most of it makes sense, that was when the clean ups / rehabs started, they started taking families more seriously, and simply grew apart. Sad for the fans, but probably better for them.
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DandelionPowderman
More like since 1971, isn’t it?
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LeonidPQuote
DandelionPowderman
More like since 1971, isn’t it?
I thought I read that they lived together in Jamaica for the Goats Head Recording. Similarly for Black & Blue, I thought, but not sure where. I'd have to check history on Some Girls, I don't really know where they were at that point.
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DandelionPowderman
He did, but he stopped trying.
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DoxaQuote
VoodooLounge13
I actually quite enjoy Ronnie’s solo stuff, and find all of it to be far more consistent style wise than any of the others. Would I have bought any of em he wasn’t a Stone? Probably not but that’s beside the point. For me 1234 has always been my favorite, but I also think Slide on This and Feel Like Playing are equally good. Slide on Live and Live and Eclectic are both great live albums as well. This thread actually caused me to go back and re-listen to all of his albums even!!! Annnnd I did some digging and discovered that he played on a lot of other albums too and I’ve been checking out those too - most notably the Dylan albums. Now I’m far from even a mild Dylan fan. Have his greatest hits and rarely play it. Whatever he’s written anyone else can cover it better. But man these albums with Ronnie have been critical bombs and I’ve really dug them all. His voice isn’t as bad and they sorta rock. Even his Christian albums. I’m amazed. I’m starting to think his famous stuff might be his least best stuff. Might even have to dive into his catalog more. And it all started with this Ronnie thread lol
This thread is good at least for something!
I wish I'd been in your shoes. To study the whole Dylan catalog with fresh ears... That's a helluva ride, gems jumping up from here and there, and from the places you least expect. The dude's career is incredible, full of interesting phases, and no matter what he does, the muse is almost everytime there, and he follows it pretty faithfully. A text book example of artistic career - and in my book being about the only true example of an artist stemming out of rock and pop culture (I usually hesitate to describe rock musicians as 'artists', but with Dylan I don't). And what goes for his controversial voice, it is a part of his art, his unique instrument of expression, and he does miracles with it, me thinks. No one can sing Dylan like he does.
Funny thing is that I wasn't any big Dylan fan yet when I had GIMME SOME NECK I described above. I knew his name and fame, and probably had some greatest hits album and listened it occasionally, probably just out of educating myself, like I did, say, The Beatles, but without any closer affection. Then I listened GIMME SOME NECK and "Seven Days" stood out. I was like, damn after all that Wood guy can write great tunes. And then I checked the credits and it said "Dylan". I cannot say that made me any bigger Dylan fan - that would take some years to really happen - but ley's say that made ne realize what is a difference between a great song writer and not that great. Wood never been able to convince me wrong about the first impression of his song-writing skills. (And the thing is that "Seven Days" is not that spectacular song in Dylan's oeuvre)
That said, I think Wood does a marvellous job in "Seven Days". The production is as bad as it is all over the album, but great music shines through despite of it, as it always does if there is substance. His raspy, a bit Dylan-like voice fits perfectly there (Keith's great back ups too). Great guitars too. Even better is the version in Dylan's 30th Anniversary concert (one of the highlights of the show).
If I recall right Dylan offered the song first to Clapton, but Eric wasn't interested. Wood was in the same room and said "Hey, give it to me, I'll do it" (or something to the effect). So that Bob did. A great outcome, since I don't think Eric with his clean style been able to do it as much justice as Ron did with his roughness. I think Ronnie actually 'owns' the tune. Very occasionally that happens with Dylan's tunes.
- Doxa