I originally posted some of this late in the Amsterdam show thread, but for those who didn't see it:

"Keith made some terrible mistakes tonight."
"Ronnie was off tonight."
"Mick just wasn't himself tonight."

Sound familiar?

OK... For all those pointing out all the mistakes and miscues. A few points...

Keith and Ronnie are well past their prime. I know it. You know it. And they know it. Ronnie isn't Mick Taylor and he isn't even Ronnie in his prime. Keith's mess ups are right there for all to see. They both play very prominent parts so their mistakes are not going to get covered up very well. Jagger has also lost a step or two from his prime. And some nights, one of them might not be at their best, even by 2022 standards.

So have they "jumped the shark?" I really don't think so. The three main guys are smart enough to surround themselves with top notch backing musicians and the best back line team in the business. Put it all together and it's still a hell of a show.

If you're comparing the 2022 shows to shows from decades ago, you're sure to be disappointed. These guys are in their late 70s. What do you expect?

My sister is not a huge fan of the band. I took her to one of the U.S. shows last year. She was blown away. And she doesn't drink the Kool-Aid like most of us here.

The moral of the story is this: If you're looking for things to criticize with Keith, Ronnie, Sasha or anyone on stage, you'll find something to point out and you'll be right. But I'll take the total of 2 minutes of mess ups to get the remaining 2 hours of magic.

As they show more and more rust, do I hope they wrap it up after 60 years? Nope. And if they decide to do one of those "residencies" where they set up shop in one place and play a bunch of shows in a smaller venue, I'll be first in line for tickets. (OK, maybe second in line. Bjounulf will probably beat me to the front of the line.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-08-05 11:50 by bv.

Exactly. Except I won't be signing up for Las Vegas if they take that line. Which I highly doubt they will. The shows are still amazing even at the gouging prices charged. I don't even mind the f*ck ups. To be honest, since they were 'way past their prime' by the time I could see them live in the 90's for the first time, they've always been making mistakes, and Keith and Ronnie have been variously intermittently under the influence/weather for the best part of 30 years. That's the Rolling Stones.

And soon enough, the time will come where nothing is left to critisize.

I think they perform to the best of their present-day abilities. Mick is forever a wonder, whilst Keith and Ronnie still have the muster. Yes, their collective ageing is becoming more-and-more noticeable, but that’s inevitable. If they could no-longer perform competently as a collective, they wouldn’t allow themselves to be up there on stage. They’re far more cautious in 2022, and that’s quite apparent in some of the onstage decision-making, shortening of set-lists, etc. I really don’t know what we’ll witness from them after this latest jaunt, but ‘time, gentlemen, please!’ will surely be soon. Last orders, everyone.

I think that, if some fans were judging the gigs of the "golden era" by their current criteria, by this spirit of "now I'm noting moments of sloopiness, now I'm counting mistakes", then many nights of 1978 and 1981 tours could be considered as "mediocre", if not "horrible" rounds...

The Stones still put on a hell of a show - yes, at the age of 79... Fortunately, "big audiences" seem to appreciate this, completely. Those "hardcore fans" who have different impressions or feelings can easily enjoy the "perfection" of "Out On Bail"...

Full stadiums, hundreds of fans outside hotels, fantastic shows (including two top 5 i have ever seen, from 19), furious midnight ramblers, the stones are alive and kicking. I am a happy man.

It is what it is, in the words of Harry Styles

"In this world it's just us , you know it's not the same as it was".

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falo01
And soon enough, the time will come where nothing is left to critisize.

Voila.. Then there was nothing. Yet still they pined for something ..

If you hate it If Keith or Ronnie play a wrong note or something is out tune just stay home and play a studio record. By a concert can go something wrong. Please enjoy that they are still playing with their age and stop complaining and enjoy it as long as it can!!

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Mabru
If you hate it If Keith or Ronnie play a wrong note or something is out tune just stay home and play a studio record. By a concert can go something wrong. Please enjoy that they are still playing with their age and stop complaining and enjoy it as long as it can!!

The point exactly. Took my 40 year old daughter to HP2 her first time and she loved it. She even bought 3 t shirts for her kids from the concession stand ( I advised against, price etc.). That's the power of the music of the rolling stones. Don't ya get it.

Warts and all

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Big Al
I think they perform to the best of their present-day abilities. Mick is forever a wonder, whilst Keith and Ronnie still have the muster. Yes, their collective ageing is becoming more-and-more noticeable, but that’s inevitable. If they could no-longer perform competently as a collective, they wouldn’t allow themselves to be up there on stage. They’re far more cautious in 2022, and that’s quite apparent in some of the onstage decision-making, shortening of set-lists, etc. I really don’t know what we’ll witness from them after this latest jaunt, but ‘time, gentlemen, please!’ will surely be soon. Last orders, everyone.

Agree with all this to a large extent, and if they need to shorten the setlist due to extreme heat I have nothing to complain, but if it's "just" to save the lead singer from exhaustion like in Gelsenkirchen obviously, there are other and imo better ways - let Keith have three songs to sing, and if it's too much for him, give Ronnie a solo spot with I Can Feel The Fire or Seven Days, he's in the band long enough that even the most casual fan must acknowledge him as a "true Stone". And it needs to be said that there's a difference between a mistake and a sloppy musical performance of a solo because of exaggerated posing for the audience. I'm not talking about Pink Floyd perfection, but if I would have to choose between a fitting solo for Tumbling Dice or Start Me up or a posing and grimacing guitar player in front of me, I know what I'd prefer, but maybe it's just me.

All in all, only minor quibbles, but I am not willing to excuse everything when, with a little more imagination from the band, certain problems could quite easily be solved. And is it just me who's got the impression that the overall reaction to the Gelsenkirchen show was a little bit underwhelmed, last but not least here on IORR?

Respectfully so, the criticism may not be just in their performance, it's probably the money paid.

Ah but yes, one did agree to pay for the ticket(s). You knew/know what you're getting.

If you didn't/don't, well, ha ha!

Any professional live act has to be susceptible to criticism. It's not like they're doing these gigs out of charity. They've charged top ticket prices while putting in the least possible effort in terms of setlists and creativity for the last decade. Of course people will have opinions which differs from the "we are so lucky they are still going" narrative. You can enjoy this band for what they are and still have objective (not always positive) opinions about their playing and performance.

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EasterMan
Any professional live act has to be susceptible to criticism. It's not like they're doing these gigs out of charity. They've charged top ticket prices while putting in the least possible effort in terms of setlists and creativity for the last decade. Of course people will have opinions which differs from the "we are so lucky they are still going" narrative. You can enjoy this band for what they are and still have objective (not always positive) opinions about their playing and performance.

Absolutely.

But if one is fooled into THINKING otherwise, well, they are the fool, not the artist.

The problem with being a long time fan is you know what the best of the Stones sounds like. 1973. God bless those with fresh ears who only have now to compare them to. They must still be pretty damn good if they can still amaze the unitiated.

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24FPS
The problem with being a long time fan is you know what the best of the Stones sounds like. 1973. God bless those with fresh ears who only have now to compare them to. They must still be pretty damn good if they can still amaze the unitiated.

To be fair you and other fans who heard them in 1973 had almost years to get used to their "new" sound.

The OP- vibrolux- wrote:
Ronnie isn't Mick Taylor.
That's really true.
As much as I like that funny guy since his time with the
Faces, Ronnie never even came close to Mick Taylors's skills.
I remember when I heard him play 'YCAGWYW' for the first time in the 70ies I was shocked how bad his playing was.
He really butchered the solo. He should stay away from all these songs where
Mick T showed his class.

We can criticize individual members for a variety of reasons, we can debate the overpriced tickets, and we can ridicule the stale setlists, etc., etc, etc....
But I believe the biggest sin is the fact they still haven't released a new album of originals in 17 years, and appears they've content with coasting in to the sunset on their past glories.
It's the one thing that most Stones fans will agree on when it comes to criticising the band, and even if they were to finally release the album some day, it seems it would be too little too late.
And while the legacy has been tainted due to lack of creativity/productivity, there's still hope! Maybe they'll release a brand new triple or a quadruple album of originals to make up for all the wasted years.

Meanwhile, thankful after sixty years they're still around...as a live nostalgia act....like a living museum...with only two original members left.
All critiques and opinions aside, it truly is amazing they still can sell so many tickets in such massive stadiums. Keep on rolling...

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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StonedRambler

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24FPS
The problem with being a long time fan is you know what the best of the Stones sounds like. 1973. God bless those with fresh ears who only have now to compare them to. They must still be pretty damn good if they can still amaze the unitiated.

To be fair you and other fans who heard them in 1973 had almost years to get used to their "new" sound.

I didn't actually get to hear the Stones live until 1978, and that was a shambolic affair. (Part of it my doing). American and European tours were totally separate creatures back then. I vaguely heard there was such a concert in Brussels, but the bootleg availability where I was at didn't exist. I didn't get Brussels until I moved to Los Angeles and found a boot cd at a flea market. Then there was the 'official' release just a few years ago. I am still blown away by that band.

But that was their peak. Young men, incredible musicians. I have no idea what I would think if I was a teenager coming upon the group. My attitude back then was that they would have been too old. Of course rock and roll died years ago. It's not like there are constant great rock groups coming along to take their title. I'm happy for anyone who gets joy out of whatever this version of the group is.

Sigh. Not a single complaint about Charlie; RIP...

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tommyturbo76
Sigh. Not a single complaint about Charlie; RIP...

Surprising. All of this negativity is a buzz kill.

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Phil Good
The OP- vibrolux- wrote:
Ronnie isn't Mick Taylor.
That's really true.
As much as I like that funny guy since his time with the
Faces, Ronnie never even came close to Mick Taylors's skills.
I remember when I heard him play 'YCAGWYW' for the first time in the 70ies I was shocked how bad his playing was.
He really butchered the solo. He should stay away from all these songs where
Mick T showed his class.

Ah. So Ronnie should just leave the stage when they play anything from 1989-1974.

You considering Taylor's noodling class? That's a good one.

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vibrolux
OK... For all those pointing out all the mistakes and miscues. A few points...

Keith and Ronnie are well past their prime. I know it. You know it. And they know it. Ronnie isn't Mick Taylor and he isn't even Ronnie in his prime. Keith's mess ups are right there for all to see. They both play very prominent parts so their mistakes are not going to get covered up very well. Jagger has also lost a step or two from his prime. And some nights, one of them might not be at their best, even by 2022 standards.

So have they "jumped the shark?" I really don't think so. The three main guys are smart enough to surround themselves with top notch backing musicians and the best back line team in the business. Put it all together and it's still a hell of a show.

...

Well, a few points here as well.

Most people who pointing out the mistakes are long time fans who love the Band.
All over that anniversary tour, we've seen comments like "Best show I've ever seen", "Keih is still rocking" , "Steve did a good job" and so on..
If people couldn't tell here their point without being called bashers or moaners, that's ok, IORR will be a loving board where everything they do is ok, to each his own.

HMN

One of the best posts here since many years.
(Wanted to write this point for long. Now you did it simply great.)

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Phil Good
The OP- vibrolux- wrote:
Ronnie isn't Mick Taylor.
That's really true.
As much as I like that funny guy since his time with the
Faces, Ronnie never even came close to Mick Taylors's skills.
I remember when I heard him play 'YCAGWYW' for the first time in the 70ies I was shocked how bad his playing was.
He really butchered the solo. He should stay away from all these songs where
Mick T showed his class.

I agree Phil Good, Taylor was responsible in taking the Stones to their greatest heights, i don't think anyone can argue that point, the period he was with them was their peak and the songs he was involved in were arguably their best.
Ronnie in comparison is a clown, the joker, we have to put up with him and take the best he has to offer as Stones fans, but for many of us we don't buy into this BS he is the glue that keeps them together as Ronnie says every time he gets a chance, you tell people something for long enough people believe it. I have to put up with Ronnie , we all do, don't think for one minute the man can rival Mick Taylor.
What is never mentioned now is the fact that rather than save the Stones Ronnie must have took the Stones to the brink during the decades of lackluster performances when he was drinking, i remember so many tours he was the week link, forget that he wasn't as good as Taylor, for decades Ronnie wasn't as good as himself, he brought the band down if anything, all this BS he saved the Stones really winds me up, yes he has been really important over the past decade when Keith was struggling and i love him for that, he's a charmer, a nice guy, he do love his weaving with Keith and he can shine sometimes, i don't take that away from him, but please don't argue he's better for the Stones than Taylor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-07-31 11:28 by keefriffhards.

Jagger/Richards were responsible in taking the stones to their greatest heights.
So yeah, that point can definitely be argued.
Taylor was lucky to be around when Jagger/Richards were at their peak.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-07-31 12:45 by BowieStone.

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BowieStone
Jagger/Richards were responsible in taking the stones to their greatest heights.
So yeah, that point can definitely be argued.
Taylor was lucky to be around when Jagger/Richards were at their peak.

You probably just speak about the production in in studio then! In that case, Ronnie never managed to live up to this peak. We're glad when he manages to play a decent solo that doesn't shame Mick Taylor's live period.

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

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BowieStone
Jagger/Richards were responsible in taking the stones to their greatest heights.
So yeah, that point can definitely be argued.
Taylor was lucky to be around when Jagger/Richards were at their peak.

That's right actually, thanks for reminding me, seriously we all forget the main contributors when we get into these disagreements, yes the Glimmer Twins are the Stones, they have both created a body of work that's never been matched. I do however believe that songs like CYHMK, TWFNO, Moonlight Mile, Sway , Winter etc would not have been so great without Taylor's influence.
Can't really say Ronnie's influence compares to those album tracks unless you think Hey Negrita is better than CYHMK etc.

And if we look even deeper than that, if we are going to talk about their peak, i would suggest Keith is the major contributor to the music, as Keith said, without the music what do we have ?, just words on bits of paper, wahaha no song !! Jagger was lucky to be around Richards

Add to that we find out from Mick's interview recently that Keith wrote the music for their best ballads ( something you guys have known for decades ) Keith wrote Angie, Wild Horses, Ruby Tuesday, Beast Of Burden. This is why it's so hard for me to understand how many people on iorr appear to dislike Keith, i mean come on Keith is the man, if you don't like Keith @#$%& off.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-07-31 14:14 by keefriffhards.

I’m pretty sure Keith is the happier of the two with the other one.
Mick made Keith a millionaire. Without Mick they would play some blues festivals in tents in the summer.

Mick brought his buddy Keith in the stones in the first place.

Don’t underestimate Mick the songwriter. A lot of times the so-called Keith songs are written by Mick based on a Keith idea. Like the mentioned Beast of Burden. Coming up with ideas is easy, writing an actual song with it is tough. And besides that; a lot of Stones classics are primarily written by Mick.

Between those two it’s 50/50. The Stones needed them both equal.

I’m not getting into the Taylor-Wood debate. Just saying that guitar playing isn’t all about fluent soloing. Ronnie has a different approach to the thing. That approach is co-responsible for making 1978-1983 my favourite Stones era.

And, oh yeah, nobody on this board dislikes Keith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-07-31 15:04 by BowieStone.