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Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: Shott ()
Date: April 26, 2022 16:28

Hi I'm not a musician. I've read in several places that the Stones are unique in that Keith kept the time and Charlie followed. What are some good examples where I could hear that and maybe compared to another non-Stones song where the drummer keeps time? Or maybe it's just everywhere all the time and I need to figure it out. Thanks.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Date: April 26, 2022 16:41

Keith decides the tempo on the songs he kicks off. Still does (JJF, SFM, BS etc.).

If Keith drops or increases the tempo during a song (at least in the past), Charlie would follow. However, that goes for any drummer with a guitarist in the band that dominated the sound the way Keith did.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: yeababyyea ()
Date: April 26, 2022 16:45

Here's an example when Keith starts off JJF at pretty much the same speed, Charlie follows his tempo but Steve "corrects" it. I think Charlie's approach gave the band an interesting dynamic feel.

Hamburg 2017:





Dallas 2021:







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-04-26 16:46 by yeababyyea.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: April 26, 2022 16:58

Quote
Shott
Hi I'm not a musician. I've read in several places that the Stones are unique in that Keith kept the time and Charlie followed. What are some good examples where I could hear that and maybe compared to another non-Stones song where the drummer keeps time? Or maybe it's just everywhere all the time and I need to figure it out. Thanks.

I think one of the best examples is JJF from Brussels 1973 (boot version). Keith defines and pushes the beat, and Charlie's drags behind. Charlie's not pushing the beat or keeping time, but he follows Keith with his fills and bass drum pattern.

Mathijs

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Date: April 26, 2022 17:24

Interesting.

It used to be great, but I find them playing a lot faster under Jordan, which is something I missed the last years.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: April 26, 2022 19:11

Quote
yeababyyea
Here's an example when Keith starts off JJF at pretty much the same speed, Charlie follows his tempo but Steve "corrects" it. I think Charlie's approach gave the band an interesting dynamic feel.

Hamburg 2017:





Dallas 2021:



You got to look for an example of Charlie willing to entertain the most flaccid dynamic to make that point. To me it comes off less like Jordan trying to put Keith on track it's more like he's functionally set on that tempo and deaf to the dynamic in a sense.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: TheBlockbuster ()
Date: April 27, 2022 20:16

Quote
yeababyyea
Here's an example when Keith starts off JJF at pretty much the same speed, Charlie follows his tempo but Steve "corrects" it. I think Charlie's approach gave the band an interesting dynamic feel.

Yes, much of the Stones unique sound is gone without Charlie.
Some people might think the Hamburg version is dragging and slow, but I think it has a nice groove, the slow tempo kind of makes it better.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: April 27, 2022 20:32

At the end of SFM on Brussels Affair...
Sounds to me like everyone is racing to keep up with Keith!

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: StonedRambler ()
Date: April 27, 2022 20:39

It can be heard on Monkey Man quite well. The riffing of Keith is always ahead of Charlie's drumming.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: Shott ()
Date: April 27, 2022 21:42

Thanks. I thought it was more that the drummer keeps time like as in there are time bars (1,2,3,4) and the drummer hits on the beat, whereas in Stones Keith "percusses" the guitar on the time beat and charlie lags a bit behind, giving it the famous "roll."

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Date: April 27, 2022 22:29

A bit confusing. Are we referring to tempo or timing in this thread?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-04-27 22:40 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: StonedRambler ()
Date: April 27, 2022 22:44

Quote
Shott
Thanks. I thought it was more that the drummer keeps time like as in there are time bars (1,2,3,4) and the drummer hits on the beat, whereas in Stones Keith "percusses" the guitar on the time beat and charlie lags a bit behind, giving it the famous "roll."
Well, that's what it is. You can't objectively tell if Keith is playing on the beat or playing ahead of it since there is no real timing reference. But what you can surely say is that Keith is ahead of Charlie and Charlie is following Keith.

Bill is often a lot ahead too. I feel often even ahead of Keith.

Another great example is honky tonk women. By the second verse the song is speeding up immensely because Keith is pushing the tempo. Charlie is trying to follow him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-04-27 22:46 by StonedRambler.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: StonedRambler ()
Date: April 27, 2022 22:48

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
A bit confusing. Are we referring to tempo or timing in this thread?
Good question. But it's hard to seperate with the Stones when we're talking about Charlie following Keith.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Date: April 27, 2022 23:10

Quote
StonedRambler
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
A bit confusing. Are we referring to tempo or timing in this thread?
Good question. But it's hard to seperate with the Stones when we're talking about Charlie following Keith.

If you put the speed of any Stones song at X 0,5, you can hear that sometimes Charlie's beat is ahead of Keith, and vice versa. We are talking maybe 15 or 20 milliseconds here, and you would only feel it as a certain groove. Actually it is physically impossible to get the timing at zero milliseconds sharp for any rhythm section. Every band that grooves has a "roll".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-04-28 00:47 by TheflyingDutchman.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: Paddy ()
Date: April 28, 2022 05:37

I feel they kinda threw it back and forth live. Often in the same song. It gave them that roll along with the rock Keef often mentions, they were very fluid live. They played off each other really well. Rambler is an example where Charlie, Keith & Mick all controlled the tempo and changes within the song.

I think Steve Jordan’s done a different but great job. But they rocked, Rolled, Swung and bounced best with Charlie. John Densmore from the Doors is one of the only other drummers who was as sympathetic live to what everyone on stage was doing. He followed and led them all at the same time. That’s what Charlie brought to the stones. One word that’s not used with Charlie is ferocity and he had it. For as much finesse as he had, he could drive that band like a beast live. Keef might have set the tempo of SFM / JJF back in the day, but Charlie could kick them across the line smoking.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: April 28, 2022 08:53

Tumbling Dice.

It gets no better than that.

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: StonedRambler ()
Date: April 28, 2022 10:40

Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
StonedRambler
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
A bit confusing. Are we referring to tempo or timing in this thread?
Good question. But it's hard to seperate with the Stones when we're talking about Charlie following Keith.

If you put the speed of any Stones song at X 0,5, you can hear that sometimes Charlie's beat is ahead of Keith, and vice versa. We are talking maybe 15 or 20 milliseconds here, and you would only feel it as a certain groove. Actually it is physically impossible to get the timing at zero milliseconds sharp for any rhythm section. Every band that grooves has a "roll".
Absolutely, while there is a general tendency of Keith being ahead of Charlie it's not something you could easily replicate by just moving the guitar of a recording forward and the drums back. There's also a lot of "wobble" involved. And rules are there to be broken, so there are also times where Keith is behind Charlie

Re: Keith keeping time for Stones not Charlie
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: April 28, 2022 19:02

Quote
StonedRambler
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
Quote
StonedRambler
Quote
TheflyingDutchman
A bit confusing. Are we referring to tempo or timing in this thread?
Good question. But it's hard to seperate with the Stones when we're talking about Charlie following Keith.

If you put the speed of any Stones song at X 0,5, you can hear that sometimes Charlie's beat is ahead of Keith, and vice versa. We are talking maybe 15 or 20 milliseconds here, and you would only feel it as a certain groove. Actually it is physically impossible to get the timing at zero milliseconds sharp for any rhythm section. Every band that grooves has a "roll".
Absolutely, while there is a general tendency of Keith being ahead of Charlie it's not something you could easily replicate by just moving the guitar of a recording forward and the drums back. There's also a lot of "wobble" involved. And rules are there to be broken, so there are also times where Keith is behind Charlie

What you say here basically confirms what both Keith and Charlie have said at times about the one following the other. I think that indeed live performances are purely based on the intuitive feeling that goes on while playing on stage. It's never really the same. And that's one of the aspects I so much enjoy seeing them live winking smiley

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town



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