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The Stones just sound fantastic on these shows, but it has to be said that the guitars were out of tune quite a bit (e.g. Taylor on 2nd show JJF, Taylor on both 11/28 LIV's, Richards on all Sympathy's and 2 out of 3 Stray Cat's, etc), and that Jagger's vocals slur and drag quite a bit and at times he was outright out of tune. It sounds like at times he couldn't hear himself properly. For Ya Ya's they really took the best instrumental takes they had, where everybody was in tune and in sync, and replaced the vocals where needed.
Listening to it today, I found that Jagger's ad lib vocals during Taylor's solo in Sympathy were not live, but overdubs. These are fantastic, and really missing on the actual version. Richard's backup vocals really add a lot of charm.
Mathijs
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-17 19:17 by Mathijs.
The out of tune guitars and Jagger's less than perfect vocals are part of the Stones charm for me. As much as I love YaYa's I always hated the fact that they did overdubs and Mick fixed his vocals in the studio. I really enjoy the rawness of the ABKCO NYE tapes even if they are not as full and warm as YaYa's
Here is an excellent analysis of the YaYa's overdubs. Not sure if it has been updated since the ABKCO NYE tapes were available as the author does not show any of the current bootlegs of those tapes.
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
I correct myself: The SFTD-version of Ya Ya's is from the 2. show. And there is hardly any editing or any overdubbing.
Other folks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Abkco ONLY released the first three tracks from the early show on 11/28/69 via the 69 TRAX dump on U Tube.
Good catch Sig as I didn't think they included any tracks from the 1st 11/28th show in the NYE dump.
Always thought that the content of the ABKCO 69RSTRAX Dump was a strange mixture of seemingly random already circulating bootleg audience tapes along with some uncirculated outtake gems and tapes of the the two epic MSG concerts.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-17 21:37 by oldschool.
Correct.
Gimme Shelter was played the first show of the tour in Fort Collins, 5th show in Oakland, 7th show in Phoenix and then it wasn't played until after the tour in West Palm Beach and Altamont.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-21 20:25 by GasLightStreet.
The way Mick sang the choruses in JJF are superior to what's on GYYYO. Someone probably said, You better make it like the single version.
LOL just a minor edit - the entire fourth verse!
Thanks for the info Chris as I thought the MSG 1969 No-Label Day1 & Day2 releases sounded too good to be lossy audience recordings even if they were recorded with a Microphone at the board.
If you don't mind me asking What does the "GJ" stand for if you can share?
BTW, You have a great website that I reference often. Look forward to your update on the Ya Ya's overdubs based on the new Unmixed SB's
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-22 01:27 by oldschool.
Thanks, I should have known that but drew a blank.
So do you know if the ABKCO 69rstrax MSG NYE tapes are audience or SB? Just curious if they were better SQ audience recordings or just lossy versions of the GJ Unmixed SB's
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: February 17, 2022 19:04
Quote
SighuntQuote
MathijsQuote
RobertJohnson
Great share! Many thanks. Never heard the original MSG in this clear sound. It is evident for me that no overdubbing on Ya Ya's was necessary.They edited some great moments of Mick Taylor and Keith, unfortunately.
Well, no not really, they didn't touch the guitars at all except for some minor rhythm guitar of Taylor during Carol.
Mathijs
As been stated previously on threads regarding Ya Yas, the primary overdubs were centered on the vocals, which when you hear these 69 TRAX recordings (that were dumped by Abkco in 2019), I personally think that they were unnecessary. In particular, I would argue that they ruined Jack Flash on Ya Yas. The take that you hear (on bootlegs and the 69 TRAX) with the original vocals (from 11/27 first show if my memory serves me well) sounds more raw and powerful to my ears.
The Stones just sound fantastic on these shows, but it has to be said that the guitars were out of tune quite a bit (e.g. Taylor on 2nd show JJF, Taylor on both 11/28 LIV's, Richards on all Sympathy's and 2 out of 3 Stray Cat's, etc), and that Jagger's vocals slur and drag quite a bit and at times he was outright out of tune. It sounds like at times he couldn't hear himself properly. For Ya Ya's they really took the best instrumental takes they had, where everybody was in tune and in sync, and replaced the vocals where needed.
Listening to it today, I found that Jagger's ad lib vocals during Taylor's solo in Sympathy were not live, but overdubs. These are fantastic, and really missing on the actual version. Richard's backup vocals really add a lot of charm.
Mathijs
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-17 19:17 by Mathijs.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
oldschool
()
Date: February 17, 2022 19:19
Quote
MathijsQuote
SighuntQuote
MathijsQuote
RobertJohnson
Great share! Many thanks. Never heard the original MSG in this clear sound. It is evident for me that no overdubbing on Ya Ya's was necessary.They edited some great moments of Mick Taylor and Keith, unfortunately.
Well, no not really, they didn't touch the guitars at all except for some minor rhythm guitar of Taylor during Carol.
Mathijs
As been stated previously on threads regarding Ya Yas, the primary overdubs were centered on the vocals, which when you hear these 69 TRAX recordings (that were dumped by Abkco in 2019), I personally think that they were unnecessary. In particular, I would argue that they ruined Jack Flash on Ya Yas. The take that you hear (on bootlegs and the 69 TRAX) with the original vocals (from 11/27 first show if my memory serves me well) sounds more raw and powerful to my ears.
The Stones just sound fantastic on these shows, but it has to be said that the guitars were out of tune quite a bit (e.g. Taylor on 2nd show JJF, Taylor on both 11/28 LIV's, Richards on all Sympathy's and 2 out of 3 Stray Cat's, etc), and that Jagger's vocals slur and drag quite a bit and at times he was outright out of tune. It sounds like at times he couldn't hear himself properly.
Listening to it today, I found that Jagger's ad lib vocals during Taylor's solo in Sympathy were not live, but overdubs. These are fantastic, and really missing on the actual version. Richard's backup vocals really add a lot of charm.
Mathijs
For Ya Ya's they really took the best instrumental takes they had, where everybody was in tune and in sync, and replaced the vocals where needed.
The out of tune guitars and Jagger's less than perfect vocals are part of the Stones charm for me. As much as I love YaYa's I always hated the fact that they did overdubs and Mick fixed his vocals in the studio. I really enjoy the rawness of the ABKCO NYE tapes even if they are not as full and warm as YaYa's
Here is an excellent analysis of the YaYa's overdubs. Not sure if it has been updated since the ABKCO NYE tapes were available as the author does not show any of the current bootlegs of those tapes.
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
RobertJohnson
()
Date: February 17, 2022 19:22
Quote
RobertJohnsonQuote
MathijsQuote
RobertJohnson
Great share! Many thanks. Never heard the original MSG in this clear sound. It is evident for me that no overdubbing on Ya Ya's was necessary.They edited some great moments of Mick Taylor and Keith, unfortunately.
Well, no not really, they didn't touch the guitars at all except for some minor rhythm guitar of Taylor during Carol.
Mathijs
The guitar sound on SFTD (first show) is much richer than on Ya Ya's version. And they did use the version of the first concert for Ya Ya's, didn't they?
I correct myself: The SFTD-version of Ya Ya's is from the 2. show. And there is hardly any editing or any overdubbing.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
Sighunt
()
Date: February 17, 2022 19:41
Quote
oldschoolQuote
MathijsQuote
oldschoolQuote
Mathijs
I actually don't think these are soundboards, but audience recording taken from the PA. These recordings were made to capture the audience.
Mathijs
I was listening to the 11/27 show tonight and don't think it is an audience recording in the strict sense as it is too well-balanced. Possible a stage recording?
I know the Doors did this for one of their official bootlegs and it sounded similar.
However they were recorded the ABKCO tapes sound fantastic and blow away the available audience recordings that have been around forever.
In my opinion it is an audience recording recorded by the crew at the mixer desk with a stereo microphone, I guess some 40 meters from the stage. I listened to all shows again and I forgot a bit how utterly fantastic they are.
I don't remember exactly, but the 28th first show is incomplete right? Stray Cat is the official Ya-Ya's version and not the audience recording for example.
Mathijs
Possibly as the vocals and drum's are back in the mix, which you get with many audience recordings, with the guitars and Bill's bass more forward.
The only thing that makes me doubt that these are audience recordings is Bill's bass overloads the tape at one point on one of the songs and then the mix is adjusted to fix this which you would not expect to hear in an audience recording and implies to me it may have been a line or board recording.
Also I believe these are mono sources and not stereo recordings.
I don't believe any tracks from the 11/28 first show were released in the ABKCO
69RSTRAX Dump. The "No Label" bootleg label seems to have cobbled together all the available tracks from the official YaYa's releases and other bootleg recordings to give us a partial concert.
To my knowledge there are no complete tapes, audience or SB, of the 11/28 1st show in general circulation.
[www.dbboots.com]
There is also the excellent FALO/ Capt. Acid matrix of the 11/27 show that combines the ABKCO tape with the VG SQ long circulating audience tape that really breathes some life into the ABKCO tape and give a nice stereo feel to the concert.
[www.dbboots.com]
Other folks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Abkco ONLY released the first three tracks from the early show on 11/28/69 via the 69 TRAX dump on U Tube.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
oldschool
()
Date: February 17, 2022 21:35
Quote
SighuntQuote
oldschoolQuote
MathijsQuote
oldschoolQuote
Mathijs
I actually don't think these are soundboards, but audience recording taken from the PA. These recordings were made to capture the audience.
Mathijs
I was listening to the 11/27 show tonight and don't think it is an audience recording in the strict sense as it is too well-balanced. Possible a stage recording?
I know the Doors did this for one of their official bootlegs and it sounded similar.
However they were recorded the ABKCO tapes sound fantastic and blow away the available audience recordings that have been around forever.
In my opinion it is an audience recording recorded by the crew at the mixer desk with a stereo microphone, I guess some 40 meters from the stage. I listened to all shows again and I forgot a bit how utterly fantastic they are.
I don't remember exactly, but the 28th first show is incomplete right? Stray Cat is the official Ya-Ya's version and not the audience recording for example.
Mathijs
Possibly as the vocals and drum's are back in the mix, which you get with many audience recordings, with the guitars and Bill's bass more forward.
The only thing that makes me doubt that these are audience recordings is Bill's bass overloads the tape at one point on one of the songs and then the mix is adjusted to fix this which you would not expect to hear in an audience recording and implies to me it may have been a line or board recording.
Also I believe these are mono sources and not stereo recordings.
I don't believe any tracks from the 11/28 first show were released in the ABKCO
69RSTRAX Dump. The "No Label" bootleg label seems to have cobbled together all the available tracks from the official YaYa's releases and other bootleg recordings to give us a partial concert.
To my knowledge there are no complete tapes, audience or SB, of the 11/28 1st show in general circulation.
[www.dbboots.com]
There is also the excellent FALO/ Capt. Acid matrix of the 11/27 show that combines the ABKCO tape with the VG SQ long circulating audience tape that really breathes some life into the ABKCO tape and give a nice stereo feel to the concert.
[www.dbboots.com]
Other folks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Abkco ONLY released the first three tracks from the early show on 11/28/69 via the 69 TRAX dump on U Tube.
Good catch Sig as I didn't think they included any tracks from the 1st 11/28th show in the NYE dump.
Always thought that the content of the ABKCO 69RSTRAX Dump was a strange mixture of seemingly random already circulating bootleg audience tapes along with some uncirculated outtake gems and tapes of the the two epic MSG concerts.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-17 21:37 by oldschool.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
Eleanor Rigby
()
Date: February 18, 2022 01:13
Yep, definately only 3 songs from 1st show.
JJF, Carol, SFTD
JJF, Carol, SFTD
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
ChrisM42
()
Date: February 21, 2022 20:10
These are not the 69rstrax releases.
Even though they surface in 2019 after the New Year's releases they are different.
Clearly there is no 'chorusing' and low resolution from the poor quality and notch filtering required to remove the noise glitching.
These first surfaced on 'no label' as "Day 1" and "Day 2", then on Moonchild as "In Concert" and later on DAC-199 as "Some Satanic Tour Vol.3". Further excerpts showed up on 'No Label' as "The Rolling Stones / 1969" and later reissued as "Stoned 1969".
They have been referred to as the 'GJ' Unmixed Soundboards.
The coolest 'Revelation' is that Sympathy For The Devil from Nov. 28, 1st Show which had not been heard in any form before is without guitar overdubs on the fantastic KR and MT' guitar solos. Of course, the Jagger vocal talk overs have been edited out on "Ya-Ya's"...
Time to add more the story for sure.
Chris M.
Even though they surface in 2019 after the New Year's releases they are different.
Clearly there is no 'chorusing' and low resolution from the poor quality and notch filtering required to remove the noise glitching.
These first surfaced on 'no label' as "Day 1" and "Day 2", then on Moonchild as "In Concert" and later on DAC-199 as "Some Satanic Tour Vol.3". Further excerpts showed up on 'No Label' as "The Rolling Stones / 1969" and later reissued as "Stoned 1969".
They have been referred to as the 'GJ' Unmixed Soundboards.
The coolest 'Revelation' is that Sympathy For The Devil from Nov. 28, 1st Show which had not been heard in any form before is without guitar overdubs on the fantastic KR and MT' guitar solos. Of course, the Jagger vocal talk overs have been edited out on "Ya-Ya's"...
Time to add more the story for sure.
Chris M.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 21, 2022 20:23
Quote
timmyj3
These are fantastic and new to me! Did they not play Gimme Shelter at any of the MSG shows?
Correct.
Gimme Shelter was played the first show of the tour in Fort Collins, 5th show in Oakland, 7th show in Phoenix and then it wasn't played until after the tour in West Palm Beach and Altamont.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-21 20:25 by GasLightStreet.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 21, 2022 20:27
Quote
SighuntQuote
MathijsQuote
RobertJohnson
Great share! Many thanks. Never heard the original MSG in this clear sound. It is evident for me that no overdubbing on Ya Ya's was necessary.They edited some great moments of Mick Taylor and Keith, unfortunately.
Well, no not really, they didn't touch the guitars at all except for some minor rhythm guitar of Taylor during Carol.
Mathijs
As been stated previously on threads regarding Ya Yas, the primary overdubs were centered on the vocals, which when you hear these 69 TRAX recordings (that were dumped by Abkco in 2019), I personally think that they were unnecessary. In particular, I would argue that they ruined Jack Flash on Ya Yas. The take that you hear (on bootlegs and the 69 TRAX) with the original vocals (from 11/27 first show if my memory serves me well) sounds more raw and powerful to my ears.
The way Mick sang the choruses in JJF are superior to what's on GYYYO. Someone probably said, You better make it like the single version.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 21, 2022 20:31
Quote
RobertJohnsonQuote
RobertJohnsonQuote
MathijsQuote
RobertJohnson
Great share! Many thanks. Never heard the original MSG in this clear sound. It is evident for me that no overdubbing on Ya Ya's was necessary.They edited some great moments of Mick Taylor and Keith, unfortunately.
Well, no not really, they didn't touch the guitars at all except for some minor rhythm guitar of Taylor during Carol.
Mathijs
The guitar sound on SFTD (first show) is much richer than on Ya Ya's version. And they did use the version of the first concert for Ya Ya's, didn't they?
I correct myself: The SFTD-version of Ya Ya's is from the 2. show. And there is hardly any editing or any overdubbing.
LOL just a minor edit - the entire fourth verse!
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
BlueTurns2Grey
()
Date: February 21, 2022 20:48
I still didn't compare these tracks with the 2019 ABKCO downloads. Maybe this list of the 69rstrax helps:
19691127 MSG:
0 Sam Cutler Intro
1 Jumping Jack Flash
2 Carol
3 Sympathy For The Devil
4 Stray Cat Blues
5 Love In Vain
6 Prodigal Son
7 You Gotta Move
8 Under My Thumb - I'm Free
10 Midnight Rambler
11 Live With Me
12 Little Queenie
13 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
14 Honky Tonk Women
15 Street Fighting Man
19691128 MSG, 1st show:
1 Jumping Jack Flash
2 Carol
3 Sympathy For The Devil
19691128 MSG, 2nd show
1 Jumping Jack Flash
2 Carol
3 Sympathy For The Devil
4 Stray Cat Blues
5 Love In Vain
6 Prodigal Son
7 You Gotta Move
8 Under My Thumb
9 Midnight Rambler
10 Live With Me
11 Little Queenie
12 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
13 Honky Tonk Women
14 Street Fighting Man
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-21 20:48 by BlueTurns2Grey.
19691127 MSG:
0 Sam Cutler Intro
1 Jumping Jack Flash
2 Carol
3 Sympathy For The Devil
4 Stray Cat Blues
5 Love In Vain
6 Prodigal Son
7 You Gotta Move
8 Under My Thumb - I'm Free
10 Midnight Rambler
11 Live With Me
12 Little Queenie
13 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
14 Honky Tonk Women
15 Street Fighting Man
19691128 MSG, 1st show:
1 Jumping Jack Flash
2 Carol
3 Sympathy For The Devil
19691128 MSG, 2nd show
1 Jumping Jack Flash
2 Carol
3 Sympathy For The Devil
4 Stray Cat Blues
5 Love In Vain
6 Prodigal Son
7 You Gotta Move
8 Under My Thumb
9 Midnight Rambler
10 Live With Me
11 Little Queenie
12 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
13 Honky Tonk Women
14 Street Fighting Man
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-21 20:48 by BlueTurns2Grey.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
ChrisM42
()
Date: February 21, 2022 20:58
Here is the original work from the 1990's, and the fundamental read on this topic:
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
I will update soon based on the GJ Unmixed Soundboards.
Chris M.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-21 21:18 by ChrisM42.
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
I will update soon based on the GJ Unmixed Soundboards.
Chris M.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-21 21:18 by ChrisM42.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
oldschool
()
Date: February 22, 2022 01:22
Quote
ChrisM42
Here is the original work from the 1990's, and the fundamental read on this topic:
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
I will update soon based on the GJ Unmixed Soundboards.
Chris M.
Thanks for the info Chris as I thought the MSG 1969 No-Label Day1 & Day2 releases sounded too good to be lossy audience recordings even if they were recorded with a Microphone at the board.
If you don't mind me asking What does the "GJ" stand for if you can share?
BTW, You have a great website that I reference often. Look forward to your update on the Ya Ya's overdubs based on the new Unmixed SB's
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-22 01:27 by oldschool.
Re: MSG '69
Posted by:
oldschool
()
Date: February 22, 2022 01:50
Quote
ChrisM42
Glyn Johns
Thanks, I should have known that but drew a blank.
So do you know if the ABKCO 69rstrax MSG NYE tapes are audience or SB? Just curious if they were better SQ audience recordings or just lossy versions of the GJ Unmixed SB's
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