August, 1965.
The Byrds fly to the UK for their first British tour. It turned out to be a pretty controversial tour and quite disastrous. More or less around that time, Gene Clark wrote "Eight Mies High" whie hanging out with Brian Jones. Did Brian Jones help write the song?

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How romantic! How ridiculous (I am sure intended!)

No, he did not other than bringing a phattie to the party with Crosby. No, Brain did not and never did write any music of substance or significance, period!!!!!!!

I have to smile.

stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

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stonesstein
No, he did not other than bringing a phattie to the party with Crosby.

That could have been a great help!

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stonesstein
No, Brain did not and never did write any music of substance or significance, period!!!!!!!

I have to smile.

Is creating riffs and moods for hit songs not making significant contributions?

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skytrench

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stonesstein
No, he did not other than bringing a phattie to the party with Crosby.

That could have been a great help!

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stonesstein
No, Brain did not and never did write any music of substance or significance, period!!!!!!!

I have to smile.

Is creating riffs and moods for hit songs not making significant contributions?

Plural? The Last Time and...?

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DandelionPowderman
Plural? The Last Time and...?

No Expectations deserved a writing credit too. Lot's of more subtle but vital parts of hits. 19th Nervous Breakdown, Satisfaction - you can say it was just a regular 'boogie type' part, but the main riff is just the same without the root note. I guess he was involved in the creation of many others, but was short changed on the writing royalties. Can't blame MT for getting upset about the same.

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skytrench

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DandelionPowderman
Plural? The Last Time and...?

No Expectations deserved a writing credit too. Lot's of more subtle but vital parts of hits. 19th Nervous Breakdown, Satisfaction - you can say it was just a regular 'boogie type' part, but the main riff is just the same without the root note. I guess he was involved in the creation of many others, but was short changed on the writing royalties. Can't blame MT for getting upset about the same.

There is a difference between laying down a superb guitar track and writing a song. He is following the chords Keith wrote with his slide guitar.

On The Last Time, however, it sounds like Keith is following the riff Brian wrote.

Lady Jane could be a "grey area" track, though. Brian's dulcimer-riff sounds like it's essential to the song, although we don't know what came first - that riff or Mick's vocal melody (it's the same).

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DandelionPowderman
There is a difference between laying down a superb guitar track and writing a song. He is following the chords Keith wrote with his slide guitar.

On The Last Time, however, it sounds like Keith is following the riff Brian wrote.

Lady Jane could be a "grey area" track, though. Brian's dulcimer-riff sounds like it's essential to the song, although we don't know what came first - that riff or Mick's vocal melody (it's the same).

For No Expectations, I would rate strumming an A and E chord (with a D thrown in at the end) lower than creating a melodical theme that fits like Brian did with his slide part. It can be compared to creating the melody for the lyrics and warrant some songwriting credit. I have no idea if Keith also had a hand in the lyrics and the singing melody.

In general, one could speculate, they were following the Lennon/McCartney stamp with a Jagger/Richards one, regardless of the other bandmates contribution. Personally, unless some members were missing entirely, I would include all the members more often than not. Sometimes the feel and mood are just as important to the creation as a simple chord sequence. I liked that Black Sabbath gave credit to all members, even though Geezer would write the lyrics for Ozzy, who then mostly sang the melody of Tony's power chords! Shouldn't the drummer be given some credit for the creation the structure as well? Bill certainly should get some for his nice basslines tying it all together.

Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

I don't believe strumming an A and E chord is writing music. Without the lyrics and theme (from Brian?) there would be no song.

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skytrench

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

I don't believe strumming an A and E chord is writing music. Without the lyrics and theme (from Brian?) there would be no song.

Well, you're wrong.

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skytrench

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

I don't believe strumming an A and E chord is writing music. Without the lyrics and theme (from Brian?) there would be no song.

Brian follows the main vocal melody, which is written by Keith Richards. Nicky Hopkins' piano is instrumental to the track as well, and nobody argues that he wrote it....

Mathijs

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DandelionPowderman
Well, you're wrong.

Well, that wouldn't be the last time

Is it possible that Jagger wrote the song by himself?

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

That is a kind of statement one can not do anything with. If Brian would not have had the ambition to start a band (which became the Rollin(g) Stones) Mick and Keith may for sure not have become the great songwriters they were/are. Remember it was Oldham who "forced" them into songwriting when the band was already mature in making great songs originating from others.
Also, a lot of the Aftermath songs, all written by J/R would have been mediocre without Brian's subtle and by times great additions.
Bobby Troup wrote Route 66. When interviewed he said that the way the Rolling Stones interpreted his meanwhile famous song (Nat King Cole, f.i.) was the way he liked best of all other interpretations. Route 66 was a true band effort, not a Mick/Keith thing. Only when Brian's mental state changed to bad, things changed, but not really completely up to "No Expections". Written by J/R yes, but a shining diamond thanks to Brian.


I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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georgie48

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

That is a kind of statement one can not do anything with. If Brian would not have had the ambition to start a band (which became the Rollin(g) Stones) Mick and Keith may for sure not have become the great songwriters they were/are. Remember it was Oldham who "forced" them into songwriting when the band was already mature in making great songs originating from others.
Also, a lot of the Aftermath songs, all written by J/R would have been mediocre without Brian's subtle and by times great additions.
Bobby Troup wrote Route 66. When interviewed he said that the way the Rolling Stones interpreted his meanwhile famous song (Nat King Cole, f.i.) was the way he liked best of all other interpretations. Route 66 was a true band effort, not a Mick/Keith thing. Only when Brian's mental state changed to bad, things changed, but not really completely up to "No Expections". Written by J/R yes, but a shining diamond thanks to Brian.

Indeed, but the whole band's contributions (and Nicky's!) made the tune what it is.

Not sure if I buy the premises for your theory about Mick and Keith, though, but that's another story

I don't think the Jagger/Richards or Lennon/McCartney 'business arrangements' were net positives for the bands per se, as they certainly did lead to bad feelings and contributions that went unrecognized by the other band members.

That isn't to say that the arrangements weren't successful of course, however one wonders whether in the long term, band cohesiveness may have benefitted from 'sharing the wealth' from the contributions of the whole band, which is really what it takes to make a great song.

Not to wave the U2 flag, but by way of an example, and the way they generally credit the whole band for songwriting I would imagine that has deflated potential animosity amongst the members, and here they are 45 or so years later fully intact.

There's two key parts of what Gene said which tend to get ignored in Brian fanbase, that being "I actually wrote the song..." and "...It just came out of a conversation..."

Seems to me Gene is saying Brian and Gene talked about stuff, Gene then wrote a song about what they had talked about. Gene felt Brian deserved credit because the conversation was the catalyst, but Brian didn't care.

I see it as influence without directly being part of the actual writing of the song. The song would not have existed without the conversation, but it would also not have existed had Gene not sat down and did the work of writing it.

So...

Eight Miles High - written by Clark, McGinn, Crosby - Inspired by a conversation with Brian Jones.

But of course, it's OTT to credit inspiration on releases etc as it would be never ending. Cool and interesting to include such details in the historical record though.

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stonesstein
How romantic! How ridiculous (I am sure intended!)

No, he did not other than bringing a phattie to the party with Crosby. No, Brain did not and never did write any music of substance or significance, period!!!!!!!

I have to smile.

What about a Degree of Murder?

Arrangement writing and creation are a vital part of music and the popularity and success of recordings. The writing and creation of arrangements is a valid creative act.

The harmonica motif on Come On is an original arrangement idea by Brian. This is an early example of how he would, for the most part, approach the music of The Rolling Stones. Usually, but not always, creating original and distinctive arrangement ideas for songs.






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-15 02:29 by His Majesty.

In the 1960s and 1970s, did Keith ever bring a completely written song into the studio for the band to record, or did derive from jams with the rest of the band from his melodies or chords

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DandelionPowderman

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georgie48

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

That is a kind of statement one can not do anything with. If Brian would not have had the ambition to start a band (which became the Rollin(g) Stones) Mick and Keith may for sure not have become the great songwriters they were/are. Remember it was Oldham who "forced" them into songwriting when the band was already mature in making great songs originating from others.
Also, a lot of the Aftermath songs, all written by J/R would have been mediocre without Brian's subtle and by times great additions.
Bobby Troup wrote Route 66. When interviewed he said that the way the Rolling Stones interpreted his meanwhile famous song (Nat King Cole, f.i.) was the way he liked best of all other interpretations. Route 66 was a true band effort, not a Mick/Keith thing. Only when Brian's mental state changed to bad, things changed, but not really completely up to "No Expections". Written by J/R yes, but a shining diamond thanks to Brian.

Indeed, but the whole band's contributions (and Nicky's!) made the tune what it is.

Not sure if I buy the premises for your theory about Mick and Keith, though, but that's another story

You're right, Bart. I was a bit tough there on Mick and Keith. The variety of songs on Aftermath was high. I remember being surprised that they made a complete album with own songs and I still love the album. But I'm not happy with the ever returning rubbish about what song writing is all about. One mail mentioned U2 as an example. That should have happened with the Stones too. Okay, there were these Nanker/Phelge examples, but that was merely another one of those Oldham tricks.
Decades later Mick and Keith allowed some "strangers" like Pierre de Beauport to be part of the credit (no more Oldham influences). But we all know that on quite some great earlier as well as later Stones songs there was influential input from f.i. Brian (a lot), Bill and Mick Taylor. Not to forget Ronnie, who, surprise, was given credit on a lot of songs (how about the "deal" on the song It's Only Rock and Roll?)
I "wrote" some songs while living in Japan (lyrics and main melody) to start with, but they would be nothing (it was merely fun anyway) without the subsequent input of my Japanese band mates (for instance helping out with a suitable "bridge" to have that all important break ).



I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

A bit similar case was that of "Off The Hook". I don't quite recall the details, but the lyrical idea was co-invented and one whole verse made by some Mick's friend (was he a fellow student from LSO 'Mike' was still in contact with or something). Mick later asked him that is it alright that they use that verse. No credit, but Jagger gave something - money, drinks? - for compensation.

I guess the source is one of those Jagger biographies.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-15 12:58 by Doxa.

Brian could clearly write music as A Degree of Murder attests to.But he apparently couldn’t write 3 minute pop songs.Had he lived he might been producing music like Brian Eno but with a more bluesy feel

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treaclefingers
I don't think the Jagger/Richards or Lennon/McCartney 'business arrangements' were net positives for the bands per se, as they certainly did lead to bad feelings and contributions that went unrecognized by the other band members.

That isn't to say that the arrangements weren't successful of course, however one wonders whether in the long term, band cohesiveness may have benefitted from 'sharing the wealth' from the contributions of the whole band, which is really what it takes to make a great song.

Not to wave the U2 flag, but by way of an example, and the way they generally credit the whole band for songwriting I would imagine that has deflated potential animosity amongst the members, and here they are 45 or so years later fully intact.

Don't forget that the arrangement of how proceedings are distributed within and outside the band can be arranged in any way you like it through kickbacks and whatever. For example, Charlie Watts has benefitted from songwriting royalties since the early '70's, even though he hasn't written a single note.

Mathijs

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Taylor1
In the 1960s and 1970s, did Keith ever bring a completely written song into the studio for the band to record, or did derive from jams with the rest of the band from his melodies or chords

Basically, Keith wrote about 90% of all music and melodies up until Satanic or Beggars, and based on the outtakes available he did take song into the studio fairly finished in structure and melody.

Mathijs

Just read Chris Hillman's book and no mention of Brian Jones. The book seemed super sincere and honest.

Did not Hillman say the song 8Miles High was inspired by Brian being high on drugs while a passenger on a plane with him

I just looked at the book again page 91. Seems like it was about a flight and Roger commented they were 7 miles high but that wouldn't be a good song title, hence the 8 mile high.

Songwriting credits is a hard issue. If you don't know about it, read about the legal dispute between Matthew Fisher and Gary Brooker on the song A whiter shade of pale. We all love Brian's slide on No expectations, but THAT Hammond melody on AWSOP is what makes the song. Is the main tune, the mood, and all that. Those chords were already been set by Brooker, but the organ part made the song what is. BTW, is clear in Get Back that no song is Lennon/McCartney 100%. Even Mal Evans took part. Even adding verses. So, there is no thing 100% Jagger/Richards too. Quite intresting is the Nanker Phelge thing, meaning that the collaborative work of five is the songwriter.

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"I'm gonna walk... before they make me run"

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Blown Away. The Rolling Stones and the Death of the Sixties by A. E. Hotchner. Page 142.

Keith Richards has said that getting ideas for songs is a totally unconscious process. 'I'd go in the studio, and I'd let the rest of the band think that I know what I'm doing. I'll just start playing. And I'll rely on my intuition and instinct and all those ideas I've had during the months before we started the sessions to start coming back to me and start coming out of my guitar. Now I'll know that Charlie is sitting behind the drums. I don't have to say, 'Where's charlie?' He's sitting here. So the minute I start playing, he starts playing. And always the rest of the band comes in, and these songs are gradually built up from the rest of the band as well as from Mick and me. The actual basic idea of the song is ours, but the way the record sounds as opposed to the original song may be quite different. What I actually do is try not to think of the songs, but I try to write records. It's the sound I'm after, not so much a piece of music.'