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Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Date: January 7, 2022 12:01

Quote
terraplane
Captured on film? That would be worth watching.

My point isn't about whether Brian was fairly treated or not but more how it looks in the 1+1 footage.

I got your point. That footage becomes "the truth" for the public.

No, it was not captured on film, but there are pictures - and the recordings, of course.

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: January 7, 2022 14:02

Quote
terraplane
Quote
24FPS
Quote
terraplane
Their reported ill treatment of Brian Jones is something they would probably rather forget though.

Poor, poor Brian. As if he did nothing to warrant enmity from the band. He eventually pissed off every one of them with his behavior. He was probably bipolar, but no one knew what the hell that was back then. Or that gobbling down handfuls of drugs from strangers might not be a good thing. And what were they? In their mid-20s? Spoiled rock stars, insulated from the real world. I think it caught up to them when they were older. They seemed more reflective, and forgiving about Brian.

True but all people will see is what the footage of 1 + 1 shows them. I haven't seen it for a long time but I recall it was Brian isolated from the rest of the group, stuck in a booth by himself with his guitar not even audible.

I think the footage of ONE PLUS ONE only tells how Jagger/Richards dominated band the Stones are, and pretty much nothing else. With the latter I mean that Brian's there, like Charlie, Bill or Nicky are, and are doing their contribution/what they are told. Brian isolated? No. The footage starts with Mick learning the chords of "Sympathy For The Devil" to Brian and after a while Keith with an open tuning comes along (a great scene, by the way). Then Brian plays his part in a booth yes, but that's probably because that's the way to record acoustic guitar, in isolation. Yeah, it didn't make the final cut - and we cannot hear it even there, but the live sound Godard's crew captures is pretty muddy and contingent anyway - but many (any) of the things they tried first didn't. Later we can see Brian socializing, sharing cigs with Keith, taking part to the 'woo woo' choir, etc.

I think since people have read so many books and everything of those times - of Brian's decline, his treatment, etc - they interpret the footage from that base. But had it been Bill Wyman who quit or been kicked out in 1969 one could easily 'see' the evidence in ONE PLUS ONE. I mean: there is poor, pale, humilated-looking Bill playing maracas while Keith plays the bass....

- Doxa

P.S. Oh shit, I added two clarifications, and they were a while here, but I screwed up somehow, and they are now gone. Not significiant enough to rewrite - about the early scene of what exactly happens when Mick and Brian are playing the acoustics together, and what is that rhythm instrument, not maraccas, called Bill plays...



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-07 15:48 by Doxa.

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: January 7, 2022 14:34

Bill's never been bothered beyond the occasional feeling of slight annoyance.

He doesn't seem to have any ego where his musical contribution is concerned .

One less job to do...more time for chasing skirt winking smiley

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: January 7, 2022 15:16

Quote
Spud
Bill's never been bothered beyond the occasional feeling of slight annoyance.

He doesn't seem to have any ego where his musical contribution is concerned .

One less job to do...more time for chasing skirt winking smiley

Not quite so. In his book STONE ALONE Bill makes it pretty clear that he lost his interest to contribute creatively more to their records during the BEGGARS BANQUET sessions, and took more like a back seat role - or accepted it - after that (did what he was told, and put his own creative ideas into somewhere else). From BEGGARS BANQUET on, The Stones were a pure Jagger/Richards show - of course, that was just a natural ending point of the process having started a few years earlier, but, at least according to Bill, the band was much more a democratic unit creatively in terms of sharing and offering ideas earlier, despite the songs being Jagger/Richards originals/credited to them.

It could be that Bill had some disillusional expectations after getting his "In Another Land" to SATANIC MAJESTIES (who knows if he had some kind of George Harrison role in mind). He claims that Mick had promised that that his songs will be used for the upcoming album as well, but when the BEGGARS BANQUET sessions started Mick and Keith weren't even interested hearing his songs ("Downtown Suzie" seems to be an exception later). And then we have the riff of "Jumpin' Jack Flash" case, seemingly another reason for Bill feeling bitter... like if one offers something interesting, Mick and Keith will just rob it, so better not to offer anything...

Let me remind that I am just here paraphrasing Bill's own view of things (with a bit of speculation by me), not how the things really went.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-07 15:21 by Doxa.

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: bob r ()
Date: January 7, 2022 16:06

Godards film had the Stones in the studio---

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: Meise ()
Date: January 7, 2022 16:45

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Spud
Bill's never been bothered beyond the occasional feeling of slight annoyance.

He doesn't seem to have any ego where his musical contribution is concerned .

One less job to do...more time for chasing skirt winking smiley

Not quite so. In his book STONE ALONE Bill makes it pretty clear that he lost his interest to contribute creatively more to their records during the BEGGARS BANQUET sessions, and took more like a back seat role - or accepted it - after that (did what he was told, and put his own creative ideas into somewhere else). From BEGGARS BANQUET on, The Stones were a pure Jagger/Richards show - of course, that was just a natural ending point of the process having started a few years earlier, but, at least according to Bill, the band was much more a democratic unit creatively in terms of sharing and offering ideas earlier, despite the songs being Jagger/Richards originals/credited to them.

It could be that Bill had some disillusional expectations after getting his "In Another Land" to SATANIC MAJESTIES (who knows if he had some kind of George Harrison role in mind). He claims that Mick had promised that that his songs will be used for the upcoming album as well, but when the BEGGARS BANQUET sessions started Mick and Keith weren't even interested hearing his songs ("Downtown Suzie" seems to be an exception later). And then we have the riff of "Jumpin' Jack Flash" case, seemingly another reason for Bill feeling bitter... like if one offers something interesting, Mick and Keith will just rob it, so better not to offer anything...

Let me remind that I am just here paraphrasing Bill's own view of things (with a bit of speculation by me), not how the things really went.

- Doxa

In her autobiography Marianne Faithful decribed the situation in an interesting way. She said that the Stones kept Bill Wyman because they needed a bassplayer for their tours. It seems Bill didn't contribute the right bass playing to Keith' ears, that's why he and Ronnie played the final bass lines in the studio. That's remarkable as we all appriciate Bill's playing in general ...

________________________________________

I can't imagine a world without the Rolling Stones! (A. Erthegun)

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 7, 2022 18:41

And we know how well the bass sounds on Stones records after Bill. Even if they only wanted him for live, it was a hell of a live bass. That series with Rick Rubin and McCartney, Rubin was commenting that you could control the band from the bass, meaning Paul. I've watched/heard plenty of live material with Bill where he's doing exactly that, whether they realize it or not.

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2022 19:18

Quote
terraplane

True but all people will see is what the footage of 1 + 1 shows them. I haven't seen it for a long time but I recall it was Brian isolated from the rest of the group, stuck in a booth by himself with his guitar not even audible.

The problem with One Plus One in regards to Brian is a combination of things being misunderstood and mis represented by those watching/reviewing etc.

Someone playing acoustic being in a booth is normal for Stone sessions in 60's. But, because it is Brian and because of all the stories we've read, it's perceived negatively.

His acoustic is audible at start along with Mick and Keith's.





It's not audible for the most part in other scenes as it's full band playing and the audio is being captured by 3 mics. One for Mick's vocal, 2 on booms which are moved about the room. This gives impression his mic was not turned on, but this is not the case. Here we hear a live take of Sympathy in it's earlier slower version, first of all captured by boom mics with Brian's acoustic not audible followed by a brief playback of the same take over the speakers captured by Goddards crew and in that playback you hear what Brian was playing on acoustic guitar.





It is probably for the best though that once they fall upon the faster tempo that Brian's acoustic wasn't being picked up all that well by Goddards crew. His acoustic is heard in early stages of this take as Goddards sound crew move around the room. Problem is Brian just tries to play a faster version of what he was doing on the slower takes and it just sounds messy.





He's also shown as part of the Woo-Woo vocal overdub with it's awkward moments.





An additional misunderstanding is in part thanks to the Stones including footage from 1967 in relation to One Plus One/1968 in the 25x5 documentary. Many times people have said Brian is shown as being zonked out in One Plus One thanks to this merging of years...

41:35: [www.youtube.com]

...

None of this is to deny that there were problems. I'd say that the faster tempo Sympathy highlights a musical problem, that Brian wasn't as adept as he was before at coming up with fitting parts on the fly. It also shows him moving around during takes, slightly hitting the mic etc. That won't have recorded well even if he played something good.

...

Another problem is that it takes this amount of words and explaining to cover something Brian was doing that didn't even end up on the album. grinning smiley hot smiley spinning smiley sticking its tongue out



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-07 19:49 by His Majesty.

Re: Is there a Rolling Stones equivalent of The Beatles Get Back Documentary
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: January 7, 2022 20:56

His Majestysmileys with beer

- Doxa

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