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georgie48

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Kingbeebuzz
Yes Georgie 48, I follow your reasoning but on the issue of any doubts about a successful Hyde Park concert I think, for once, you are off the mark.

The Stones were very big at that point. They had Jumping Jack Flash, Beggars Banquet and pent up demand for a live appearance behind them. There was no way Hyde Park was going to fail. Young people flocked from all parts of the UK to see them on 5th July. At that point it may have the biggest UK concert crowd ever. The Stones may have been nervous but it was never going to fail and unfortunately the death of BJ just about 48 hours before the concert turned it into a memorial event that could not fail.....even with The Stones playing out of tune!

The things you mention are all in place (correct), but the Stones were very uncertain. BB is a great album, but at the time it didn't sell "as expected" (look at f.i. GasLightStreet's data). Especially Mick was concerned. Brian was (even though he had messed up his life) still very popular among Stones fans (diehard countries like Germany and Holland among others). Let It Bleed's cover is a clear example. It's Mick T., but could be Brian ...
For you and me off course the Stones "couldn't fail", but the band themselves felt very uncertain.
I dare to say that Hyde Park was "bigger" than big due to Brian's death (even though I decided last minute not to go out of sadness ..)

But let's be happy. The Stones are still there and Brian rolls along with them ...

Sounds like we’re a similar age Georgie48 (is 48 your birth year ? Don’t answer that!). I went to an all night party instead of Hyde Park !

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Kingbeebuzz

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georgie48

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Kingbeebuzz
Yes Georgie 48, I follow your reasoning but on the issue of any doubts about a successful Hyde Park concert I think, for once, you are off the mark.

The Stones were very big at that point. They had Jumping Jack Flash, Beggars Banquet and pent up demand for a live appearance behind them. There was no way Hyde Park was going to fail. Young people flocked from all parts of the UK to see them on 5th July. At that point it may have the biggest UK concert crowd ever. The Stones may have been nervous but it was never going to fail and unfortunately the death of BJ just about 48 hours before the concert turned it into a memorial event that could not fail.....even with The Stones playing out of tune!

The things you mention are all in place (correct), but the Stones were very uncertain. BB is a great album, but at the time it didn't sell "as expected" (look at f.i. GasLightStreet's data). Especially Mick was concerned. Brian was (even though he had messed up his life) still very popular among Stones fans (diehard countries like Germany and Holland among others). Let It Bleed's cover is a clear example. It's Mick T., but could be Brian ...
For you and me off course the Stones "couldn't fail", but the band themselves felt very uncertain.
I dare to say that Hyde Park was "bigger" than big due to Brian's death (even though I decided last minute not to go out of sadness ..)

But let's be happy. The Stones are still there and Brian rolls along with them ...

Sounds like we’re a similar age Georgie48 (is 48 your birth year ? Don’t answer that!). I went to an all night party instead of Hyde Park !

Yeah, we have similar memories
I had planned to take the train to Hoek van Holland on the 4th, catch the night boat to Harwich, and from there the early morning train to London. It was a painful decision not to go, but that is part of ones emotion. Regrets? Historically maybe yes, but emotionally no. With Mick doing his speech and Brian's great photo at the background, I would have had wet eyes most of the time. But ... I made it up with a great 2013 Hyde Park concert! (Among 80 mostly great other concerts )
Maybe we run into eachother this year ...

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Tom Keylock's four daughters putting on the thumbscrews...

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paulspendel
Tom Keylock's four daughters putting on the thumbscrews...

Wow! The adorable side of murder.

From my personal archive.

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georgie48

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Kingbeebuzz
Yes Georgie 48, I follow your reasoning but on the issue of any doubts about a successful Hyde Park concert I think, for once, you are off the mark.

The Stones were very big at that point. They had Jumping Jack Flash, Beggars Banquet and pent up demand for a live appearance behind them. There was no way Hyde Park was going to fail. Young people flocked from all parts of the UK to see them on 5th July. At that point it may have the biggest UK concert crowd ever. The Stones may have been nervous but it was never going to fail and unfortunately the death of BJ just about 48 hours before the concert turned it into a memorial event that could not fail.....even with The Stones playing out of tune!

The things you mention are all in place (correct), but the Stones were very uncertain. BB is a great album, but at the time it didn't sell "as expected" (look at f.i. GasLightStreet's data). Especially Mick was concerned. Brian was (even though he had messed up his life) still very popular among Stones fans (diehard countries like Germany and Holland among others). Let It Bleed's cover is a clear example. It's Mick T., but could be Brian ...
For you and me off course the Stones "couldn't fail", but the band themselves felt very uncertain.
I dare to say that Hyde Park was "bigger" than big due to Brian's death (even though I decided last minute not to go out of sadness ..)

But let's be happy. The Stones are still there and Brian rolls along with them ...

I can only underline that. Of course the Stones must have felt very uncertain. Back then, it was not the Mick'n'Keith show yet. Brian was tremendously popular amongst Stones fans and I'm not making things up to suggest that they lost a sizable amount of fans after the split with Brian. To what degree even the Stones themselves could not be sure at the time.

In the early 70's, I witnessed more often than not people claiming: "I don't listen to the Stones anymore because of how they treated Brian." My rationale that the Stones sacked Brian to get functional again and to save the band's future didn't always gain friendly replies to say the least!

What you see today with people like Paul Spendel and others from LARS (like Doxa already mentioned) are just the remnants of the iceberg that once existed of people whose love for the Stones turned into hate.

My love for the Stones didn’t turn into hate. A wrong assumption from retired_dog. I just collect documents regarding Brian’s death. Why would that make me hostile towards the Stones?

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paulspendel
From my personal archive.

Fantastic bit of photo-history...did you acquire this, or when you say 'personal', does that mean you took the photo?

I didn’t take this photo. I was seven in 1969. I mean personal because it’s stuff I cherish, not in the public domain...yet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-13 22:05 by paulspendel.

I have stuff I will never post, like an illegal Polaroid of Brian’s body at the East Grinstead hospital. I think it might upset the relatives.

The most cherished item I have is a picture taken of a drawing of Brian on the mantelpiece of his parents’ home. That’s how they remembered Brian. Very touching.

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paulspendel
The most cherished item I have is a picture taken of a drawing of Brian on the mantelpiece of his parents’ home. That’s how they remembered Brian. Very touching.

Seems pretty bookworthy, some of these things. Thx for sharing Paul.

You are welcome. I worked with Terry Rawlings on his book and after that weird experience I was cured for good.

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paulspendel
Mathijs writes Ziyadeh was the legal partner of Fitzsimons. Wrong. She divorced Harry Fitzsimons in 1968 and was single in 1969. Ziyadeh wasn’t sent to prison as Mathijs writes, but to an asylum. Furthermore he wasn’t sent back to Jordan, he never lived there and originated from Jerusalem. He was sent to another country within the common wealth community. So much for Mathijs’ wrong information. Or, as he likes to put it according to his limited choice of words: bollocks.

So Paul then who was this person and what relationship did both Fitzsimons and Ziyadeh have with Brian and then his death?

Paul, I posted Janet Lawson's police statement on page 5 - Do you have Ann and Franks statements and if you do, can you post it here? If not, can you tell us where they can be obtained? Thanks...

Hello 2000 LYFH, Ziyadeh was born 1949 in Jerusalem. The political tensions at that time in that area caused him to leave Israel/Palestina. He travelled to the UK without any documents and ended up at Chichester trainstation januari 1969. Joan Fitzsimons was working as a cabby for the cab firm of her father Sidney Russell. she picked him up from the station and Ziyadeh had nowhere to go. Joan took him into her home in Donnington. Joan did all kinds of jobs for Brian and she took Ziyadeh to Cotchord regularly. Brian liked him and gave him some of his clothes. I have a photo of Ziyadeh wearing Brian's famous striped shirts. Joan and Ziyadeh fell in love and this angered Thorogood who was in an affair with Joan till december 1968. Ziyadeh had a temper and during Spring 1969 several fights at Cotchford occurred between Thorogood and Ziyadeh. Ziyadeh and Joan left Brian on the night of Brian's death at 8 o'clock PM, taking with them Suki. In the early morning of July 3 1969 a drunken and tired Thorogood called Joan at Donnington and blurted out he had killed Brian. Joan rushed over to Cotchford. In the weeks after Brian's death Thorogood and Keylock thought Joan would go to the press/police with Frank's confession to Joan. Thorogood started to chase Joan around in chichester and her brother John kicked him out of town. Thorogood and Keylock knew Ziyadeh had an agressive streak and almost no self control. On the morning of Juli 26th they called Ziyadeh and told him Joan would leave him and she would return to an affair with Thorogood. Obvisously they made this up, but they knew the illtempered Ziydah would take it out on Joan and so he did. Thorogood and Keylock capitalized on his aggressive temper and it worked out as planned. when Ziyadeh was on remand he spreaded the gossip he knew what had happened to Brian. He was questioned but without any result. 10 years ago I found Ziyadeh. The first thing he said on the phone was: I didn't kill that bastard! Long time Brian Jones fan John MacGillivray (RIP) visited him on my behalf together with Joan's brother John. Joan's relatives forgave him. Sources: CPS file on the attack on Joan, interview with Ziyadeh, interview with Cotchford electrician David Hills, interview with Joan's brother.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-13 23:07 by paulspendel.

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paulspendel
My love for the Stones didn’t turn into hate. A wrong assumption from retired_dog. I just collect documents regarding Brian’s death. Why would that make me hostile towards the Stones?

I don't quite buy the image of an "innocent document collector" you try to paint here. In my book, you and others who claim to find "the truth" about Brian's death just want to keep the murder theory alive with, let's say, less than hard facts and subliminally try to establish "some kinda Stones connection" with it. Doesn't sound like love for the band to me.

I am a researcher with an open mind. I look at the stuff. Meanwhile I play the guitar in a Dutch cover band, imitating all of Keith's/Brian's parts! It's possible! look! [www.facebook.com]
and don't you guys start moaning i play The Last Time wrong !
I do apologize playing the Last Time on an Ibanez guitar, tasteless!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-13 23:44 by paulspendel.

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paulspendel
I am a researcher with an open mind. I look at the stuff. Meanwhile I play the guitar in a Dutch cover band, imitating all of Keith's/Brian's parts! It's possible! look! [www.facebook.com]
and don't you guys start moaning i play The Last Time wrong !
I do apologize playing the Last Time on an Ibanez guitar, tasteless!

An admittedly eloquent, but nevertheless transparent strategy to laugh a serious discussion off - looks like you know exactly what I'm talking about.

If, for the sake of argument, Brian was murdered over money (as many murder victims are), and there was some way of proving it rather than simply believing it to be true, I really wouldn't care.

Most people, if they're honest, have done some pretty rotten things in their life. They steal (maybe only small or just stealing time from their employer), they cheat, they lie.

The Stones led (forgive me) charmed lives. Like any wealthy person, it puts them at a different level. They don't need to hold it together for a day job. Power and fame make many things easy. The best drugs, the best lovers are all there for you to take and they took. They have committed crimes without prosecution. They have broken moral codes that most societies recognize as Things You Shouldn't Do. They're like most people only more so because of their wealth and fame and power.

Beyond that, I don't know them. They're not my friends, my family. They're a band I love.

If Mick really killed Kennedy (as he sings night after night), I don't care because it's about the music. If I drew a line in the sand and said no more bad people, I would have a very small crowd and it would likely consist of hypocrites and liars.

Now, if someone has a conviction about Brian's death and wants to write about it, I'll read it. Since Paul writes well, I enjoy his posts. I have no convictions about Brian's death.

It could have been drowning by accident or on purpose. If the latter, it could simply be that a bullying hanger-on who was under the influence was too rough with him and didn't intend to commit a crime.

If it was a sinister conspiracy, then consider the likelihood of it being covered up to protect a band hated by the Establishment who were on the verge of tax exile, but still had the clout to buy the same CID that was busting them regularly.

If that unlikely scenario was reality, then that was just the way it was. I'm still a fan. I'm interested, but have no convictions as to what happened that night in July.

and subliminally try to establish "some kinda Stones connection" with it.

Hey yeah ... like those words ...



ROCKMAN

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retired_dog

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paulspendel
I am a researcher with an open mind. I look at the stuff. Meanwhile I play the guitar in a Dutch cover band, imitating all of Keith's/Brian's parts! It's possible! look! [www.facebook.com]
and don't you guys start moaning i play The Last Time wrong !
I do apologize playing the Last Time on an Ibanez guitar, tasteless!

An admittedly eloquent, but nevertheless transparent strategy to laugh a serious discussion off - looks like you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Good lord man, your like a retired dog with a bone! Let the guy be already.

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LeonidP

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Mathijs
...
Kennedy was shot dead by a lone wolf, Brian drowned after taking too many drugs.

Mathijs

Agreed, on both counts!

... Regarding Brian, I see similarities all the time w/ Kurt Cobain, an obvious suicide, and he left a note. And he even tried to kill himself a couple months earlier - so far more proof there than in Brian's case. Yet somehow there are so many out to prove it was murder: "Courtney did it", "Police covered it up", "Police are hiding facts", "Person X or Y had it in for Cobain", "Drug dealers were after him", "Police bundled the crime scene" ... it never ends!

A lot of what causes conspiracy around certain deaths, Jones’s, Morrison’s, Cobain’s as examples, is caused by the drug use of the people surrounding them preceding their deaths. Back in 1969 one of the ways a builder a nurse and rockstar could be connected was drug usage.

There was 3-4 people in Cobain's house during the last week of his life, all drug users and possibly there when he killed himself. Some fled just a day before the body was found. One person said they saw someone in the greenhouse, but thought it was a mannequin

Morrison’s death went down as a heart attack but looks increasingly like an accidental heroin OD. Pamela Courson was an addict and her behaviour helped cover up a lot. No autopsy was her decision as in France there was an option, it wasn’t done by due course (I’m sure it’s changed.

Jones’s death is similar I feel, lot of boozing, people on stuff... I can imagine a scenario where Brian & Frank had a row and it ended in death. Brian could be nasty. Frank might have wanted to scare him, pushing his head underwater, too long or one too many times, all fueled by whatever they were on. The people there that night might have had their own concerns about the law and their place in it due to their hobbies....

Things are always sketchy around this types of deaths, sometimes for the most banal reason.

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Rockman
and subliminally try to establish "some kinda Stones connection" with it.

Hey yeah ... like those words ...

...carefully and intentionally chosen...

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treaclefingers

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retired_dog

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paulspendel
I am a researcher with an open mind. I look at the stuff. Meanwhile I play the guitar in a Dutch cover band, imitating all of Keith's/Brian's parts! It's possible! look! [www.facebook.com]
and don't you guys start moaning i play The Last Time wrong !
I do apologize playing the Last Time on an Ibanez guitar, tasteless!

An admittedly eloquent, but nevertheless transparent strategy to laugh a serious discussion off - looks like you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Good lord man, your like a retired dog with a bone! Let the guy be already.

"Off The Hook", so to speak. Yeah, I hear your prayer... enough already.

.....whoooo yeah
thats what we need careful people ....

Stay Safe ....



ROCKMAN

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Paddy

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LeonidP

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Mathijs
...
Kennedy was shot dead by a lone wolf, Brian drowned after taking too many drugs.

Mathijs

Agreed, on both counts!

... Regarding Brian, I see similarities all the time w/ Kurt Cobain, an obvious suicide, and he left a note. And he even tried to kill himself a couple months earlier - so far more proof there than in Brian's case. Yet somehow there are so many out to prove it was murder: "Courtney did it", "Police covered it up", "Police are hiding facts", "Person X or Y had it in for Cobain", "Drug dealers were after him", "Police bundled the crime scene" ... it never ends!

A lot of what causes conspiracy around certain deaths, Jones’s, Morrison’s, Cobain’s as examples, is caused by the drug use of the people surrounding them preceding their deaths. Back in 1969 one of the ways a builder a nurse and rockstar could be connected was drug usage.

There was 3-4 people in Cobain's house during the last week of his life, all drug users and possibly there when he killed himself. Some fled just a day before the body was found. One person said they saw someone in the greenhouse, but thought it was a mannequin

Morrison’s death went down as a heart attack but looks increasingly like an accidental heroin OD. Pamela Courson was an addict and her behaviour helped cover up a lot. No autopsy was her decision as in France there was an option, it wasn’t done by due course (I’m sure it’s changed.

Jones’s death is similar I feel, lot of boozing, people on stuff... I can imagine a scenario where Brian & Frank had a row and it ended in death. Brian could be nasty. Frank might have wanted to scare him, pushing his head underwater, too long or one too many times, all fueled by whatever they were on. The people there that night might have had their own concerns about the law and their place in it due to their hobbies....

Things are always sketchy around this types of deaths, sometimes for the most banal reason.

Perfect summary imo.

He turned green, and tried to me cry....

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paulspendel
Mathijs writes Ziyadeh was the legal partner of Fitzsimons. Wrong. She divorced Harry Fitzsimons in 1968 and was single in 1969. Ziyadeh wasn’t sent to prison as Mathijs writes, but to an asylum. Furthermore he wasn’t sent back to Jordan, he never lived there and originated from Jerusalem. He was sent to another country within the common wealth community. So much for Mathijs’ wrong information. Or, as he likes to put it according to his limited choice of words: bollocks.

I know nothing of Fitzsimons as she is a total unknown and not of any significance to anything to do with the Stones. I googled her name for 30 seconds and this is the info I found. I do not want to spend another 30 seconds on her.

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

Mathijs

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retired_dog

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georgie48

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Kingbeebuzz
Yes Georgie 48, I follow your reasoning but on the issue of any doubts about a successful Hyde Park concert I think, for once, you are off the mark.

The Stones were very big at that point. They had Jumping Jack Flash, Beggars Banquet and pent up demand for a live appearance behind them. There was no way Hyde Park was going to fail. Young people flocked from all parts of the UK to see them on 5th July. At that point it may have the biggest UK concert crowd ever. The Stones may have been nervous but it was never going to fail and unfortunately the death of BJ just about 48 hours before the concert turned it into a memorial event that could not fail.....even with The Stones playing out of tune!

The things you mention are all in place (correct), but the Stones were very uncertain. BB is a great album, but at the time it didn't sell "as expected" (look at f.i. GasLightStreet's data). Especially Mick was concerned. Brian was (even though he had messed up his life) still very popular among Stones fans (diehard countries like Germany and Holland among others). Let It Bleed's cover is a clear example. It's Mick T., but could be Brian ...
For you and me off course the Stones "couldn't fail", but the band themselves felt very uncertain.
I dare to say that Hyde Park was "bigger" than big due to Brian's death (even though I decided last minute not to go out of sadness ..)

But let's be happy. The Stones are still there and Brian rolls along with them ...

I can only underline that. Of course the Stones must have felt very uncertain. Back then, it was not the Mick'n'Keith show yet. Brian was tremendously popular amongst Stones fans and I'm not making things up to suggest that they lost a sizable amount of fans after the split with Brian. To what degree even the Stones themselves could not be sure at the time.

In the early 70's, I witnessed more often than not people claiming: "I don't listen to the Stones anymore because of how they treated Brian." My rationale that the Stones sacked Brian to get functional again and to save the band's future didn't always gain friendly replies to say the least!

What you see today with people like Paul Spendel and others from LARS (like Doxa already mentioned) are just the remnants of the iceberg that once existed of people whose love for the Stones turned into hate.

Sometimes hate is difficult to hide. When I mentioned remembering a BBC interview on Dutch TV on July 4, 1969 with Wohlin and Thorogood, "someone" first took the time to recover it (he said) and later on he spit his frustration as if I had made it up. Very unbalanced. It's perfectly fine to "collect" information (about Brian for instance, as I did and still do) but if one can't get things his/her way, spitting on others only proves ones poor mind.

I'm sure those kind of LARS people were/are around. Too bad, because they missed a lot. Luckily I knew only fans that turned away from the Stones after HSMR in 1967. Some of them re-became fans again after they learned that the Stones "went back to their roots". Jeee, how can one not love the Rolling Stones .



I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town