Also wouldt hurt to have a rule like ''more than 50k people in a field needs to be divided into 3'' Like the stones do now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-11-09 03:21 by rebelhipi.

THE AUSTRALIAN --- 9 November 2021



ROCKMAN

I was at SarsStock in Toronto 2003 with half a million people. They had a maze of barriers up front. It took a long time to move around in the maze. It was safe, and I had no worries about being there.

I hope there are laws stating how crowd control is supposed to be at shows, in Canada, in USA, and other places.

Also, by setting a fine of say 10 million dollar per death, and 2 million dollar per injured person, it would be easier to get organizers to maintain proper security. Money talks.

Bjornulf

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bv
I was at SarsStock in Toronto 2003 with half a million people. They had a maze of barriers up front. It took a long time to move around in the maze. It was safe, and I had no worries about being there.

I hope there are laws stating how crowd control is supposed to be at shows, in Canada, in USA, and other places.

Also, by setting a fine of say 10 million dollar per death, and 2 million dollar per injured person, it would be easier to get organizers to maintain proper security. Money talks.

Yes! The fines adding up to $100 million, PLUS the families still get to sue. It would be interesting how quickly things would change. Plus, insurance companies wouldn't even insure the event if they didn't follow the guidelines.

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rebelhipi

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forsure
The kid incites riots at his shows. He was been busted twice for it. He encourages his fans to crash gates, barriers, flaunt security protocols, etc. take a look at the video. This has been happening at his shows for years. Off that it hasn’t happened already

[youtu.be]

Then he organizes his own festival and its a fiasco.

How nobody saw it coming?

Looking at the footage its clear that theres waay to many people inside those barricades.

Very sad since this was so unnecessary. The industry has learned from The Who 1979, AC/CD 1991, Pearl Jam Roskilde 2000, Limp Bizkit 2001 Big Day Out.

The more I have been reading and learning about this story since it broke, the sadder it has made me feel. My prayers go out to the victims' families. And yes, given what we SHOULD have learned from prior tragedies like this, this recent event should never have happened. We'll have to see whether huge lawsuits and bad publicity moving forward makes any difference...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-11-09 05:44 by Sighunt.

Troubles A’ Comin' ....



ROCKMAN

Since I was in Vegas for the Stones I wasn't as informed on this but from reading reports and personal experiences I would conclude that the responsibility belongs to the security/venue and the artist on stage. Living in the Bay Area where the legacy of Bill Graham still exists with better trained and more professional security than most places. In my travels I have seen lots of security teams that are untrained and just check the box but when the sh!t hits the fan they can't do anything. I felt the security staff at Sofi Stadium was capable of having things go bad due to lack of training and unfamiliarity with the venue. I was involved in a door crush trying to get to the floor that was de-escalated when I got another guard's attention and he remembered me and overruled the first person. A friend was in the middle of another one where people were starting to push against a door that should have been open.

When things started going bad the artist should try and de-escalate. I have heard a recording where Mick has admonished the crowd when things were getting out of control and remember Grateful Dead shows where Bob Weir did the "Take a step back" song. Given this was Travis Scott's festival one would think he should have done something as it was going down. This was a comedy of errors that cost many innocent people their lives. Ultimately the overreaction will affect all of us just like shooting at Bataclan, the bombing at Manchester and those tragedies already noted.

There is a difference in a show with fans age 35-70, vs a fan base where most of the fans are 10-25. So even if the rules should be the same, it is a lot more dangerous having a young crowd, vs a crowd of older fans.

Having said that, I would say that SoFi stadium is a complete security trap. I don't understand how they got a permit to build it. In case of a fire, panic, something not planned for, thousands of people need to walk or move up slow escalators, very dangerous if there is a rush.

At home we have a very old ice rink. It can take may be 2,000 people completely packed. The rink has got many "panic doors", easy to open in case of panic, it will be wide open. I just wonder what happened to security these days.

Bjornulf

Agreed, bv, that younger crowds need more 'attention', but there is also a risk for/with older crowds. Things can go wrong very quickly if people start to panic.
Nowadays, if I enter a venue, I get myself familiar with security measures and emergency exits. I stay away from crowded areas and I am trained to keep calm in case of an emergency event.

Unfortunately there are still quite a few venues that are dangerous places in case of an emergency. I remember the very narrow concrete Tunnels at the Palau St. Jordi in Barcelona and the stupid layout for the Stones' show in Hamburg, where people had to 'fight' their way through GA to enter FOS. And then there is all kinds of local security, some very good, others totally clueless, arrogant and aggressive.
When I enter a venue and see a certain security company at work I know it's gonna be okay, as they are well-trained and well-briefed.

So sad this happened and, and as BV stated,this shouldn't happen in 2021.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-11-09 08:38 by Papo.

Travis Scott should have halted the show, Houston fire chief says

Chief Samuel Pena says the rapper had the power to "pause the performance" to potentially avoid a deadly stampede toward the stage that resulted in eight deaths.

[www.today.com]

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bye bye johnny
Travis Scott should have halted the show, Houston fire chief says

Chief Samuel Pena says the rapper had the power to "pause the performance" to potentially avoid a deadly stampede toward the stage that resulted in eight deaths.

[www.today.com]

He has had these issues before AND he was warned pre-show.

Not sure what a handful of security guards can do about a crowd surge when 50,000 people are there, other than tell the performer to stop.

Pearl Jam 1994 in Murfreesboro was my first concert. We were packed so tightly, I couldn't move my arms or feet, the crowd moved in waves. Open general admission areas at the front are potentially deadly. Set up non-movable seats/rows, and that'd help.

Changing capacity numbers seems unhelpful. Even if there's enough room on the floor, it doesn't matter when all are pushing toward the stage.

And, if the music stops, so does the violence. As soon as an artist knows something is wrong, stop playing and get help. It's been done plenty...

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-11-09 22:15 by NashvilleBlues.

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spikenyc

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doitywoik

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Hairball
Very sad.....and strange....

Security guard injected with drugs during Astroworld Festival disaster, HPD confirms
... authorities confirmed one of the early claims that someone was injecting people with a needle during the deadly event,...

Now if this turns out to be true there's definitely something wrong out there.

A sad reflection of our future generation.

I'm sure our parents said the same thing....

I'm sure that drink-spiking
goes back a looooooooong looooooooooong way .....



ROCKMAN

I can't really say what constitutes a qualified security... does anyone remember what was going on in GA after the first Hyde Park show? It seemed as if they tried to control how many people would use each exit but that didn't work out and resulted in a security panic where they employed some technique of interlocking with their arms to block the way and shrieking at us. Everyone else was chill. Surreal experience

I remember at Radiohead in 2008 I was on the 'T' rail about halfway to the soundboard and was talking to someone next to me, and all of a sudden there was a crowd surge and they got pushed forward and dissappeared while I held on like crazy to the inside rail. (a pity since they smuggled in some booze and were prepared to share it).It settled fairly quickly but that was the last time I got into the thick of it in GA. When I saw U2 in 2017, the GA floor was less than 2/3 full. You could stand by the soundboard and still have lots of room around you. This was an indoor stadium show in Canada, which seems to have stricter laws regarding GA floor capacity. It was similar at Neil Young in 2012. Sure, people still pack together near the stage, but if you want out, it's pretty easy. In the USA, they seem to pack people right to the back at the shows I've been to.

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mosthigh
I remember at Radiohead in 2008 I was on the 'T' rail about halfway to the soundboard and was talking to someone next to me, and all of a sudden there was a crowd surge and they got pushed forward and dissappeared while I held on like crazy to the inside rail. (a pity since they smuggled in some booze and were prepared to share it).It settled fairly quickly but that was the last time I got into the thick of it in GA. When I saw U2 in 2017, the GA floor was less than 2/3 full. You could stand by the soundboard and still have lots of room around you. This was an indoor stadium show in Canada, which seems to have stricter laws regarding GA floor capacity. It was similar at Neil Young in 2012. Sure, people still pack together near the stage, but if you want out, it's pretty easy. In the USA, they seem to pack people right to the back at the shows I've been to.

What is with Radiohead!! The gig I mentioned in a previous post was in 1996. I would have thought Radiohead gigs were a mellower affair by 2008.

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NashvilleBlues
Not sure what a handful of security guards can do about a crowd surge when 50,000 people are there, other than tell the performer to stop.

Pearl Jam 1994 in Murfreesboro was my first concert. We were packed so tightly, I couldn't move my arms or feet, the crowd moved in waves. Open general admission areas at the front are potentially deadly. Set up non-movable seats/rows, and that'd help.

Changing capacity numbers seems unhelpful. Even if there's enough room on the floor, it doesn't matter when all are pushing toward the stage.

And, if the music stops, so does the violence. As soon as an artist knows something is wrong, stop playing and get help. It's been done plenty...

[www.youtube.com]

Brothers and sisters, what for are we fighting?

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treaclefingers

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NashvilleBlues
Not sure what a handful of security guards can do about a crowd surge when 50,000 people are there, other than tell the performer to stop.

Pearl Jam 1994 in Murfreesboro was my first concert. We were packed so tightly, I couldn't move my arms or feet, the crowd moved in waves. Open general admission areas at the front are potentially deadly. Set up non-movable seats/rows, and that'd help.

Changing capacity numbers seems unhelpful. Even if there's enough room on the floor, it doesn't matter when all are pushing toward the stage.

And, if the music stops, so does the violence. As soon as an artist knows something is wrong, stop playing and get help. It's been done plenty...

[www.youtube.com]

Brothers and sisters, what for are we fighting?

Exactly. Nice, relevant tie-in!

Astroworld Tragedy: Concert Execs on How ‘We as an Industry,’ and Especially Travis Scott, Failed Fans

By Jem Aswad
November 10. 2021

[variety.com]

2 of the injured on lifesupport are showing no brain wave activity which means the death total will go up to at least 10. Sad.

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joemusic1958
2 of the injured on lifesupport are showing no brain wave activity which means the death total will go up to at least 10. Sad.

And one of them is a 9 year old boy, that was on his father's shoulders until his father passed out.

Just a wondering, but it seems like so many people in the crowd had their phones pointed at the stage with no awareness of what was happening right beside them.
Like I said earlier in the thread, gigs could be scary affairs at times in the 90s, but there was an unwritten rule that you got people back to their feet. Even if you missed a few minutes of a song, you kept pulling people up till everyone was on their feet or passed out to security. A lot of the footage from this gig you can hear people shouting for help.

And the auto tune on that guys voice is brutally obvious. I don’t get Rap. I got public enemy, but it took a real turn for the shits after that.

Astroworld victim Bharti Shahani has died, bringing the death toll to 9

[www.cnn.com]

Really interesting observations from this EMT who was on the ground.
Zero crowd etiquette is his verdict.

[m.youtube.com]

Deadly Astroworld Festival spiraled out of control for hours, Houston FD logs show

[www.cnn.com]

This keeps getting worse and worse.
They should have pulled the plug before the show even started.
When you have fans crashing the gates before the show starts, that should have determined it.

Herald Sun --- 14 November 2021



ROCKMAN

Still not sure what this guy was thinking during this... There’s footage of him on an elevated platform and a dead person less than 15 feet from him. It appears he could see what was happening.

I saw the smashing pumpkins in 1996 & 16 year old girl died in the crowd that night. It was an intense crowd and what seemed like an endless sway all the time, then it just got tight. Same pressure that had made me sway a few minutes before now kept coming with nowhere to move. But there were contributing factors, festival lay out with spotted crush barriers, people leaving the seated area to get into the floor, security not caring, everyone was wasted drunk, and on other stuff in some cases.

But the band stopped the show, at least 3 times. And then left the stage after 10 songs or so once they heard that girl had died. In no way was it the bands fault, and they did everything they could to ensure people got up off the floor and settled before they started playing each time, they threw in a few quite numbers to keep to the moshing at bay. I remember the bass player being distraught, asking us did we not care someone had died, up to that point 90% of the crowd didn’t know someone was dead. Once we knew it was shock and that’s it concert doesn’t matter any more. There was a collective sense of shock and sadness. Immediately. I remember the scramble outside the venue people trying to find their friends and all that stuff.

It seemed no one cared at this gig. Not the crowd, not the performer. The medics & law enforcement did what they could as best they could it seems. But seeing that footage of him just not giving a shit about the body just yards from him, acting surprised when he sees an ambulance in the crowd, not taking the time to sort out the crowd then. I think he played a big part in these deaths.

I probably sound very old ...

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Paddy

I probably sound very old ...

... or sane.

[www.mtv.com]