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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because such a tour is a multi million dollar investment and a lot of money have been lost already due to COVID. I can imagine that the promoters, venues, companies, vendors etc. are pushing hard for this tour to go on, because another postponment/cancellation would be a death blow to them.

That said I'm not saying they don't want to do it anyway. I think it is important to them to tour this year despite all the bad things that happen around. Plus... they may have something special planned next year for the 60th anniversary and don't want to push this tour back to 2022.

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because there was a 2014 contract that leaked, saying exactly that.

Where can I read this supposed leaked contract?

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TornAndFried

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because there was a 2014 contract that leaked, saying exactly that.

Where can I read this supposed leaked contract?

Email Mick. He sends it out.

It is heartbreaking that CW will not be there. Disturbing to realize the stones are all elderly and these things are going to happen unfortunately. Lets all say a prayer for his recovery.

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TornAndFried

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because there was a 2014 contract that leaked, saying exactly that.

Where can I read this supposed leaked contract?

This is all standard concert business stuff, especially the last 20 years with top tier acts aging out and dropping dead. Look at The Who in 2002 - they didn't continue because they wanted to but because they had to.

A lot of people not named Mick and Keith have invested a lot of money and sunk a lot non-recoverable costs into this already.

Also Charlie is likely still getting paid and when he recovers will want to go horse shopping again.

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TornAndFried

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because there was a 2014 contract that leaked, saying exactly that.

Where can I read this supposed leaked contract?

Parts of it were available back in 2014 and even discussed here. I tried to dig around but couldn't find it. It was made public as part of a court case after the 2014 Asia cancellation. The case was ultimately settled out of court.

[forums.stevehoffman.tv]

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I cannot find the document online, but read about event cancellation/non-appearance insurance policies. In 2014 the top secret insurance policy the band had was made public when L'Wren passed. It was discovered in that document that Charlie was not covered. If something happened to him, the show was to go on with a different drummer

I remember reading the part about the replacement drummer as clear as day.

Not an assumption.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-06 18:42 by Topi.

Get well soon, Charlie - love ya man!!!

I'm out - no Charlie, no Stones.

Drew

The show must go on: [faroutmagazine.co.uk]

The band with two hired musicians might sound like the Stones, but they aren't the Stones.
For me, unless Charlie will really recover and again join the others, the book is closed once and forever.
Sorry.

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because there was a 2014 contract that leaked, saying exactly that.

But that's the point about choice, isn't it? They weren't forced to sign a contract at gunpoint (I assume!). It makes a bit of a mockery of all the good ol' Keith yarns about it being over when one of the original three is no longer part of the line-up.

Of course they didn't sign the contract at gunpoint. The point is that contracts have to be honored once signed. And apparently their contract stipulates that Charlie can be replaced.

As far as those Keith remarks, there's a big difference between 1) a band member being temporarily unable to perform and 2) forced to quit permanently.

It's not like Charlie's gone for good here.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-06 19:33 by Topi.

Stones without Charlie
ZZTop without Dusty
Queen without Freddie

Sure, why not.

Best wishes to Charlie.

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Lady Jayne

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DandelionPowderman

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TornAndFried
Why do people assume the Stones were contractually obligated to continue this tour without Charlie? Do you really think they would have a contract obliging them to play even if one of their principle members was not able to join for whatever reason? They are doing this tour because they choose to.

Because there was a 2014 contract that leaked, saying exactly that.

But that's the point about choice, isn't it? They weren't forced to sign a contract at gunpoint (I assume!). It makes a bit of a mockery of all the good ol' Keith yarns about it being over when one of the original three is no longer part of the line-up.

If indeed if this is true, then it was undoubtedly a group decision. Certainly a large cost savings compared with insuring the “tour readiness” of four (upper 70’s) band members as compared with two. As a group decision, Charlie, and possibly his legal advisor, would have been one of the four decision makers. Interesting, if the band is only insuring two band members, then the band is aware the importance on which the average ticket buyer would place on each member.

I was on the fence already given the current situation with covid and the thought of being packed into the pit for 4+ hours with who knows how many unvaxxed. This makes the decision easy, for me. No Charlie, no Stones.

It's really sad but not entirely unexpected. I respect the hell out of Steve Jordan, hell of a drummer but oh so very very different to Charlie. I can't imagine it and it just isn't the Stones to me so I'm out.

It matters a great deal that Steve Jordan has such a long history with the Stones, particularly Keith. Of course he’ll play to support them and will do so with soul and finesse if required.. (‘You Got The Silver’). I look forward to seeing videos of this so I can see what he does on ‘Rambler’ .. ‘Paint It Black’ all of them, really.. it’s interesting thinking of them with such a key seat and Charlie not on it. Best wishes I know we all extend to Charlie. Steve Jordan will handle the music fine ..

I'm honestly quite gobsmacked by the willingness of so many to take this in stride and just say "well, Steve Jordan will do a fine job". (And I say this even though I have tons of respect for Steve Jordan - he is brilliant).

I have to ask - would you be so willing to just roll with the punches if it were Mick or Keith that was MIA?

Drew

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drewmaster
I'm honestly quite gobsmacked by the willingness of so many to take this in stride and just say "well, Steve Jordan will do a fine job". (And I say this even though I have tons of respect for Steve Jordan - he is brilliant).

I have to ask - would you be so willing to just roll with the punches if it were Mick or Keith that was MIA?

Drew

I'd see any of the tree without the other two, but maybe not as the Stones.

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drewmaster
I'm honestly quite gobsmacked by the willingness of so many to take this in stride and just say "well, Steve Jordan will do a fine job". (And I say this even though I have tons of respect for Steve Jordan - he is brilliant).

I have to ask - would you be so willing to just roll with the punches if it were Mick or Keith that was MIA?

Drew

My friend and I were talking about this exact subject yesterday and he brought up that point that at this stage in their career, if they continue to go forward, this is more likely to keep popping up, in terms of needing a stand in, etc.

If you look at it, in the last three years, three different band members have had health issues pop up (Mick, Ronnie, and Charlie).

At this point, if you wish to continue seeing this band, I think we may need to accept a stand-in from time to time as a possibility.

After thinking about it further, I'm of the mind set that Steve Jordan will handle the music quite well, next to Darryl who replaced Bill and Ronnie who much longer ago replaced Brian and Mick (Taylor).

It's inevitable that these sorts of things will come up from time to time if they continue to tour as a band, as the last three years show us (three for three in terms of some type of medical issue with the band )



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-06 21:20 by Dougratajczak87.

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S.T.P

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drewmaster
I'm honestly quite gobsmacked by the willingness of so many to take this in stride and just say "well, Steve Jordan will do a fine job". (And I say this even though I have tons of respect for Steve Jordan - he is brilliant).

I have to ask - would you be so willing to just roll with the punches if it were Mick or Keith that was MIA?

Drew

I'd see any of the tree without the other two, but maybe not as the Stones.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not the Stones. Call it by something other than the Stones and I'm fine with it, and would probably buy tickets. But, without Charlie, calling it the Rolling Stones is ridiculous.

Drew

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drewmaster

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S.T.P

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drewmaster
I'm honestly quite gobsmacked by the willingness of so many to take this in stride and just say "well, Steve Jordan will do a fine job". (And I say this even though I have tons of respect for Steve Jordan - he is brilliant).

I have to ask - would you be so willing to just roll with the punches if it were Mick or Keith that was MIA?

Drew

I'd see any of the tree without the other two, but maybe not as the Stones.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not the Stones. Call it by something other than the Stones and I'm fine with it, and would probably buy tickets. But, without Charlie, calling it the Rolling Stones is ridiculous.

Drew

At some point it became a franchise more than a band.

I remember from an interview back in the day, Mick Jagger's only criticism of 'Talk is Cheap" was the drumming. W

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Ruediger
The band with two hired musicians might sound like the Stones, but they aren't the Stones.
For me, unless Charlie will really recover and again join the others, the book is closed once and forever.
Sorry.

I´m nearly thinking the same. It´s my "visiting a Stones concert-book".
As I said before: I wouldn´t go in ´21 (even if I had tickets) and
wouldn´t go in ´22 - if Charlie isn´t playing the drums.

The reason to tour without him is contractual bla bla? Fvck the contracts.
Pay the promoter! 100 million? No problem. Get out of that thing,
get the @#$%& album ready, let Ronnie and Charlie recover and in 2022
bow out gracefully with 10 phenomenal shows.
But instead the first tour news
is playing the same tent in a stadium shit for a billionaires family. Disgusting.
(I didn´t even like these events when Charlie used to be the drummer).

Keith said in the 80s: "To me CW IS the Rolling Stones". How dare you
to sign such a piece of paper then? Keith, no problem. I can´t wait for
the first interviews: "How was it with the new drummer?" "I know Steve for
so long blah good timing blah Whinos blah until Charlie comes back blah
har har".

But the most upsetting thing is, that 80% of the posts here were/are like:
"Get well, Charlie - but Steve Jordan might add some new bla bla, that
might be interesting". Not posted 2 weeks after the news - the same day and
the day after! Shameful. It really fells like treason to that honorable and
humble man who´s on all the records we have and played the drums at every
gig we have been to. Remember?. Even thinking about what it could sound
like without him is really disrespectful. This is not a normal IORR
discussion about "MT or RW" or "the drumsound on Undercover" or "the impact
of Nicky Hopkins" - it´s about "replacing Charlie Watts", an essential
part of the sound of the greatest band in the world. How could one even
think that it is somehow possible to replace him? And to read this on IORR
from some so called die-hards or purists is really a shame. Only about
10 people here seem to think the same way as me: No Charlie, no Stones.

All those who can replace Charlie could EASILY replace Ronnie, too.
I hope he will be fine and reach the 100, but what if he gets sick again?
No problem. Why hesitating to replace him?

Forever Rolling Stones...I want it to be like that...but I have to grow up.
It can´t go on forever and now is the time to realize that fact. Those
who don´t care if someone else is drumming want it to go on forever until
only Mick is left performing. I´m sorry for them.

Something isn´t the same anymore if Charlie is not there. I couldn´t stand
seeing the Stones without him. If he´s back next year...fine, I will be there.

Coincidence: The news came on August 5th, 2021. My last show was on August 5th,
2019 at Metlife Stadium. My last ever photo taken there:
Mick, Ronnie and Keith are waiting for Charlie. So sad to see now.

A bow without him? I don´t want to witness that. Never ever.

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Kennedy
I remember from an interview back in the day, Mick Jagger's only criticism of 'Talk is Cheap" was the drumming.

Didn't he say you could feel the album was produced by a drummer = the drums are too loud in the mix.

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TooTough

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Ruediger
The band with two hired musicians might sound like the Stones, but they aren't the Stones.
For me, unless Charlie will really recover and again join the others, the book is closed once and forever.
Sorry.

I´m nearly thinking the same. It´s my "visiting a Stones concert-book".
As I said before: I wouldn´t go in ´21 (even if I had tickets) and
wouldn´t go in ´22 - if Charlie isn´t playing the drums.

The reason to tour without him is contractual bla bla? Fvck the contracts.
Pay the promoter! 100 million? No problem. Get out of that thing,
get the @#$%& album ready, let Ronnie and Charlie recover and in 2022
bow out gracefully with 10 phenomenal shows.
But instead the first tour news
is playing the same tent in a stadium shit for a billionaires family. Disgusting.
(I didn´t even like these events when Charlie used to be the drummer).

Keith said in the 80s: "To me CW IS the Rolling Stones". How dare you
to sign such a piece of paper then? Keith, no problem. I can´t wait for
the first interviews: "How was it with the new drummer?" "I know Steve for
so long blah good timing blah Whinos blah until Charlie comes back blah
har har".

But the most upsetting thing is, that 80% of the posts here were/are like:
"Get well, Charlie - but Steve Jordan might add some new bla bla, that
might be interesting". Not posted 2 weeks after the news - the same day and
the day after! Shameful. It really fells like treason to that honorable and
humble man who´s on all the records we have and played the drums at every
gig we have been to. Remember?. Even thinking about what it could sound
like without him is really disrespectful. This is not a normal IORR
discussion about "MT or RW" or "the drumsound on Undercover" or "the impact
of Nicky Hopkins" - it´s about "replacing Charlie Watts", an essential
part of the sound of the greatest band in the world. How could one even
think that it is somehow possible to replace him? And to read this on IORR
from some so called die-hards or purists is really a shame. Only about
10 people here seem to think the same way as me: No Charlie, no Stones.

All those who can replace Charlie could EASILY replace Ronnie, too.
I hope he will be fine and reach the 100, but what if he gets sick again?
No problem. Why hesitating to replace him?

Forever Rolling Stones...I want it to be like that...but I have to grow up.
It can´t go on forever and now is the time to realize that fact. Those
who don´t care if someone else is drumming want it to go on forever until
only Mick is left performing. I´m sorry for them.

Something isn´t the same anymore if Charlie is not there. I couldn´t stand
seeing the Stones without him. If he´s back next year...fine, I will be there.

Coincidence: The news came on August 5th, 2021. My last show was on August 5th,
2019 at Metlife Stadium. My last ever photo taken there:
Mick, Ronnie and Keith are waiting for Charlie. So sad to see now.

A bow without him? I don´t want to witness that. Never ever.

Couldn't have said it better, mate.

Drew

For the record I repeat that I also don't support this and the assumption that half the audience doesn't know who Charlie is is an insult to young people

all this talk about no Charlie I believe will for nothing. After reading about the troubles Garth Brooks is having with his stadium tour and Covid I think this Stones tour gets cancelled. Too much risk with delta variant floating around.

More like:
The Who without Keith Moon.

Stones without Charlie
ZZTop without Dusty
Queen without Freddie

Sure, why not.

Best wishes to Charlie.[/quote]

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Kennedy
I remember from an interview back in the day, Mick Jagger's only criticism of 'Talk is Cheap" was the drumming. W

Interesting.

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rubyeveryday
More like:
The Who without Keith Moon.

Stones without Charlie
ZZTop without Dusty
Queen without Freddie

Sure, why not.

Best wishes to Charlie.

[/quote]

KISS without Ace and Peter.

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TooTough

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Ruediger
The band with two hired musicians might sound like the Stones, but they aren't the Stones.
For me, unless Charlie will really recover and again join the others, the book is closed once and forever.
Sorry.

I´m nearly thinking the same.
(...)
No Charlie, no Stones.
(...)

Yep.
My last show was Warsaw 2018 and maybe it was my very last one.
No Charlie, no Stones. I remember Keith or Ronnie saying something like: "Charlie is the engine." No engine no rolling band.