Tell Me :
Talk
Very essential. The sound will be different.
I recall many quotes from Keith that without Charlie it would not be the Stones, that his drumming was essential to their sound. Obviously he had no choice here, contractually.
Yes and yes. Zero swing sums it up. The opposite of Charlie whose jazz chops enabled him to bring swing to the Stones' sound.
Different YES, but will it be worse?
I can't say. Never heard him on drums to a Stones song so far.
I don't believe that Mick and Keith had zero choice about playing these shows. They're the Stones, they could easily have pulled out. KR is all talk, his faux camaraderie about no Charlie no Stones is great in interviews when he's in full KEEF mode and hamming it up, it sounds endearing and like real talk, but when there are millions on the table he's going to take them. I always knew Keith was full of total sh!t and this just proves it.
I'm thinking less in terms of sound, more about the dynamics. How will it affect Micks dance moves?
All of these "statements" are written by PR people, not the person to whom they are attributed.
You never listened to "Dirty Work"? Jordan is all over that one!
Charlie did not ask Steve Jordan to play for him, that was Mick and Keith. He was the obvious choice anyway.
All four signed contracts that include the clause if Ronnie or Charlie are unable to perform, they will be replaced. The current contract also prohibits them from performing - not even a solo one off gig until this tour is completed. Yes, they could refuse to tour and spend years in litigation or settle quickly, either way no one is going to be eager to offer them contracts in the future.
Or Dave Lombardo? SFM would sound rather different...
What ?!
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
Nowhere does it state or imply that the emergency surgery happened in the last few days.
Clearly, others have known, - but to say "there was no emergency surgery" unless you have more info than your posting, doesn't ring true.
The RS article indicated Charlie asked Steve. "I asked my great friend Steve....." something like that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-05 16:55 by floodonthepage.
Talk about your favorite band.
For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
jumpingjackflash5
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:08
Quote
Nikkei
We're about to find out how essential he really is
Very essential. The sound will be different.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
tookthatname
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:09
Bring on Jimmie Nicol
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Rokyfan
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:13
Quote
roryfaninva
Sigh. Actually I would have preferred a principled stand (from Keith anyways) saying we dont go without Charlie. Period. What happened to the "irreducible core"? But at the end of the day its big business.
I recall many quotes from Keith that without Charlie it would not be the Stones, that his drumming was essential to their sound. Obviously he had no choice here, contractually.
Re: Rolling Stones drummer Charlie Watts, 80, pulls out of band's US tour after undergoing emergency surgery in London
Posted by:
Rokyfan
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:16
Quote
jumpingjackflash5Quote
gotdablouse
Yeah, the whole "it'd down to the core 3 now", etc...but who's surprised, Keith's the ultimate marketing BS man and he told us himself told us 30+ years ago that "Talk is Cheap" !
Hopefully Charlie will be ok, I have ZERO faith in the public announcement that he is expected to make a full recovery though, they would say it regardless of the situation and the fact they're not saying what it is is not a very good sign, i.e. it's not a broken finger.
On a more minor note I was listening to "Hate it When You Leave" yesterday and was thinking how much I hated the drums, just thumping along aimlessly, zero swing. Hopefully Jordan will be able to copy Charlie better during the shows.
Yes, if it were something easy or simple they would say what it is.
Steve Jordan is for sure good drummer, but he is not Charlie Watts. It will sound differently. If it were posible to replace musicians like this, we can easily recreate Beatles, Doors, etc. Remember The Full Circle?
Yes and yes. Zero swing sums it up. The opposite of Charlie whose jazz chops enabled him to bring swing to the Stones' sound.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Roadster32
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:17
Quote
jumpingjackflash5Quote
Nikkei
We're about to find out how essential he really is
Very essential. The sound will be different.
Different YES, but will it be worse?
I can't say. Never heard him on drums to a Stones song so far.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:18
Well, they are well named if you read "Rolling" as evolving................(Having said that, from what I gather, at the moment, Steve Jordan is being viewed by the band (and SJ) as just a stopgap.................we'll see I guess.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:20
I only know of Jordan's drumming with Keith. How is his style going to fit the Stones'? I suppose he will be studying Charlie's live technique and and will attempt to replicate it. Truthfully, I don't particularly like what I've heard from him.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
1963luca0
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:21
First of all, my best wishes to mr. Watts for the best of recoveries!
That said, today 5 august 2021, it's the end, if he does not come back.
Mick Jagger & His Rolling Stones? No, thanks...
Luca
That said, today 5 august 2021, it's the end, if he does not come back.
Mick Jagger & His Rolling Stones? No, thanks...
Luca
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
WorriedAboutYou
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:21
Quote
RokyfanQuote
roryfaninva
Sigh. Actually I would have preferred a principled stand (from Keith anyways) saying we dont go without Charlie. Period. What happened to the "irreducible core"? But at the end of the day its big business.
I recall many quotes from Keith that without Charlie it would not be the Stones, that his drumming was essential to their sound. Obviously he had no choice here, contractually.
I don't believe that Mick and Keith had zero choice about playing these shows. They're the Stones, they could easily have pulled out. KR is all talk, his faux camaraderie about no Charlie no Stones is great in interviews when he's in full KEEF mode and hamming it up, it sounds endearing and like real talk, but when there are millions on the table he's going to take them. I always knew Keith was full of total sh!t and this just proves it.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Nikkei
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:23
Quote
Roadster32Quote
jumpingjackflash5Quote
Nikkei
We're about to find out how essential he really is
Very essential. The sound will be different.
Different YES, but will it be worse?
I can't say. Never heard him on drums to a Stones song so far.
I'm thinking less in terms of sound, more about the dynamics. How will it affect Micks dance moves?
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:27
Contractually, it appears, this tour had to be completed before anything else could follow.
Their upcoming 60th Anniversary is clearly a huge deal to all of them, with many things planned including a new album to kick it off.
"The Rolling Stones aim to have him back fighting fit for the band’s big 60th anniversary celebrations in 2022, when they will release their first album of original songs in 17 years."[www.thesun.co.uk]
Given that, and with Charlie's blessing and even good humor, I am going to enjoy this tour for what it is, knowing that Charlie will be back as soon as possible -hopefully even later this tour, but sounds very unlikely.
Has real potential for some historic live Stones moments (think Charlie hologram for the bow, one of the four screens designed to represent the four members, with a loop of Charlie playing during the show, Charlie streaming in for a wave or bow etc)
I joke, but once we know for certain (as possible) that -Charlie is going to be fine- and will be returning for their 60th year, this adds some intrigue to these shows imo.
Their upcoming 60th Anniversary is clearly a huge deal to all of them, with many things planned including a new album to kick it off.
"The Rolling Stones aim to have him back fighting fit for the band’s big 60th anniversary celebrations in 2022, when they will release their first album of original songs in 17 years."[www.thesun.co.uk]
Given that, and with Charlie's blessing and even good humor, I am going to enjoy this tour for what it is, knowing that Charlie will be back as soon as possible -hopefully even later this tour, but sounds very unlikely.
Has real potential for some historic live Stones moments (think Charlie hologram for the bow, one of the four screens designed to represent the four members, with a loop of Charlie playing during the show, Charlie streaming in for a wave or bow etc)
I joke, but once we know for certain (as possible) that -Charlie is going to be fine- and will be returning for their 60th year, this adds some intrigue to these shows imo.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Rokyfan
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:34
Quote
MisterDDDDQuote
dcba
Nobody noticed this yet :
the band now has an all-black rythmn section! I hope Darryl will welcome the arrival of Jordan accordingly and he'll "de-stiff" his bass playing.
C'mon Darryl let the groove infuse your playing!
Perhaps no one posted it yet.. but Many of us noticed.
Believe this must be why Darryl cancelled his commitment that he had on Aug 15th.
Some six weeks before opener, it sounds like there will be a lot of rehearsing.
Was a bit disappointed in Jordan's statement that he didn't mention Darryl.
"It is an absolute honour and a privilege to be Charlie's understudy and I am looking forward to rehearsing with Mick, Keith and Ronnie."
All of these "statements" are written by PR people, not the person to whom they are attributed.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
jumpingjackflash5
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:34
Yes we can take it as surprise shows without Charlie.
Sound will be different, not necessarily worse but will change.
We must accept the reality, time is ticking. And that's OK. We have been very lucky to see and hear what they already did. Let's hope they'll won't dissolve their great legacy and strength now.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-05 16:35 by jumpingjackflash5.
Sound will be different, not necessarily worse but will change.
We must accept the reality, time is ticking. And that's OK. We have been very lucky to see and hear what they already did. Let's hope they'll won't dissolve their great legacy and strength now.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-05 16:35 by jumpingjackflash5.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Taylor1
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:35
It’s probable Keith left it up to Charlie and Charlie said do it without me?
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
bam
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:36
Quote
Rokyfan
All of these "statements" are written by PR people, not the person to whom they are attributed.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
spoonful2
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:38
There was no "emergency surgery", I knew about this 9 days ago. Don't rule out him jumping back on the tour at some point, but don't be surprised if he doesn't.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
floodonthepage
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:39
A couple things seem clear to me...
1. Charlie wants this, according to the RS article. It sounds like HE asked Steve to do this, which makes a different for me.
2. The fact that theses shows are going forward doesn't (for me) mean that Keith or anyone else still doesn't feel the "No Charlie, No Stones" phrase. It means that the pandemic/contracts/insurers have them "in a spot", a spot that includes the livelihood of many a crew member. Charlie and everyone in the band are helping those people in many ways by going forward, not the least of which financially.
Less clear to me is....
3. The door does seem open for Charlie to come back during the tour, if not later in this tour then down the road with whatever plans they have that we are not aware of...that said, those plans may not include anymore US dates, and with that in mind do I want my (possibly) last Stones show to be w/o Charlie or do I skip the tour...knowing that if I (and enough other people) do that it may in some fashion hurt the larger/extended Stones family (the crew, etc.). I work with someone now who worked on their crew for Licks, and I can imagine what it means to people like him that the "show goes on"....not to mention what if (pie in the sky) Charlie comes back mid-tour...to experience that would be outstanding.
Lastly and ultimately, I think if this truly were a "Charlie is out" scenario, as in done with touring or worse.....if he had passed...then the "No Charlie, No Stones" would take hold and the band would stop. I could be wrong about that (as was exampled by the Who with Entwistle which has been pointed out was likely a contractual jam as well) but I'd like to think I'm right about that.
1. Charlie wants this, according to the RS article. It sounds like HE asked Steve to do this, which makes a different for me.
2. The fact that theses shows are going forward doesn't (for me) mean that Keith or anyone else still doesn't feel the "No Charlie, No Stones" phrase. It means that the pandemic/contracts/insurers have them "in a spot", a spot that includes the livelihood of many a crew member. Charlie and everyone in the band are helping those people in many ways by going forward, not the least of which financially.
Less clear to me is....
3. The door does seem open for Charlie to come back during the tour, if not later in this tour then down the road with whatever plans they have that we are not aware of...that said, those plans may not include anymore US dates, and with that in mind do I want my (possibly) last Stones show to be w/o Charlie or do I skip the tour...knowing that if I (and enough other people) do that it may in some fashion hurt the larger/extended Stones family (the crew, etc.). I work with someone now who worked on their crew for Licks, and I can imagine what it means to people like him that the "show goes on"....not to mention what if (pie in the sky) Charlie comes back mid-tour...to experience that would be outstanding.
Lastly and ultimately, I think if this truly were a "Charlie is out" scenario, as in done with touring or worse.....if he had passed...then the "No Charlie, No Stones" would take hold and the band would stop. I could be wrong about that (as was exampled by the Who with Entwistle which has been pointed out was likely a contractual jam as well) but I'd like to think I'm right about that.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:41
Quote
Roadster32
I can't say. Never heard him on drums to a Stones song so far.
You never listened to "Dirty Work"? Jordan is all over that one!
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
kovach
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:41
I'm not crazy about this either, it will be different, but listen to Steve Jordan's drumming on the Hail Hail Rock & Roll Chuck Berry show for a feel of how it might sound. I don't think it'll be a distraction. But different.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
spoonful2
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:41
Quote
floodonthepage
A couple things seem clear to me...
1. Charlie wants this, according to the RS article. It sounds like HE asked Steve to do this, which makes a different for me.
2. The fact that theses shows are going forward doesn't (for me) mean that Keith or anyone else still doesn't feel the "No Charlie, No Stones" phrase. It means that the pandemic/contracts/insurers have them "in a spot", a spot that includes the livelihood of many a crew member. Charlie and everyone in the band are helping those people in many ways by going forward, not the least of which financially.
Less clear to me is....
3. The door does seem open for Charlie to come back during the tour, if not later in this tour then down the road with whatever plans they have that we are not aware of...that said, those plans may not include anymore US dates, and with that in mind do I want my (possibly) last Stones show to be w/o Charlie or do I skip the tour...knowing that if I (and enough other people) do that it may in some fashion hurt the larger/extended Stones family (the crew, etc.). I work with someone now who worked on their crew for Licks, and I can imagine what it means to people like him that the "show goes on"....not to mention what if (pie in the sky) Charlie comes back mid-tour...to experience that would be outstanding.
Lastly and ultimately, I think if this truly were a "Charlie is out" scenario, as in done with touring or worse.....if he had passed...then the "No Charlie, No Stones" would take hold and the band would stop. I could be wrong about that (as was exampled by the Who with Entwistle which has been pointed out was likely a contractual jam as well) but I'd like to think I'm right about that.
Charlie did not ask Steve Jordan to play for him, that was Mick and Keith. He was the obvious choice anyway.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
GlimmerGirl24
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:41
Quote
WorriedAboutYouQuote
RokyfanQuote
roryfaninva
Sigh. Actually I would have preferred a principled stand (from Keith anyways) saying we dont go without Charlie. Period. What happened to the "irreducible core"? But at the end of the day its big business.
I recall many quotes from Keith that without Charlie it would not be the Stones, that his drumming was essential to their sound. Obviously he had no choice here, contractually.
I don't believe that Mick and Keith had zero choice about playing these shows. They're the Stones, they could easily have pulled out. KR is all talk, his faux camaraderie about no Charlie no Stones is great in interviews when he's in full KEEF mode and hamming it up, it sounds endearing and like real talk, but when there are millions on the table he's going to take them. I always knew Keith was full of total sh!t and this just proves it.
All four signed contracts that include the clause if Ronnie or Charlie are unable to perform, they will be replaced. The current contract also prohibits them from performing - not even a solo one off gig until this tour is completed. Yes, they could refuse to tour and spend years in litigation or settle quickly, either way no one is going to be eager to offer them contracts in the future.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
Bjorn
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:43
Wasn´t it Steve Jordan who played the drums on Happy, T&A, Before they make and Gimme Shelter - when Keith was on tour with The Winos? And the whole Chuck Berry thing with Hail, hail...Of course he will be doing great!
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
tatters
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:43
If Daltrey and Townshend are still The Who, then I guess Mick, Keith and Ronnie are still The Rolling Stones .... but just barely.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-05 16:46 by tatters.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-05 16:46 by tatters.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:44
Quote
tookthatname
Bring on Jimmie Nicol
Or Dave Lombardo? SFM would sound rather different...Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
jumpingjackflash5
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:46
Yes I understand there are business reasons behind this fall shows replacement. I would not blame Keith or anyone else of not being loyal to charlie. So to play the shows with Steve Jordan is the "second best" option.
And then, either Charlie is ready again and evertyhing'll be alright again (I wish it happens!), or they should simply stop. And that's also OK.
And then, either Charlie is ready again and evertyhing'll be alright again (I wish it happens!), or they should simply stop. And that's also OK.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
GerardHennessy
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:46
Another step on the road to The Stones, or what is left of them, becoming a kind of tribute band to themselves, rather than a living, breathing, vital, creative musical force. How things have changed!. And how sad I feel watching a band I have loved all my life turning into a sort of role play. .
Yes, getting another drummer in means a performance can take place, but it sure ain't The Stones. At least not for me. Mick and Keith, plus whoever else they can get to back them on stage, are NOT, and never will be The Stones. No more than their various solo endeavours were equivalent to The Stones.
And like a number of other postings have said, I too am uneasy about what today's news REALLY means. What was released to the press came straight from the keyboard of a press release writer. It says all the uplifting things you would expect. 'He hopes to be back soon'. 'He plans to rejoin the end of the tour'. Hopefully these statements are true. But I do not assume they are. Press releases are, of necessity, quite bland. Full of spin, bogus reassurance and faux-positivity. To me what we were given today is a statement that is playing for time. Something to introduce the fact that Charlie won't be there from the start. Absent from a tour for the first time EVER. Then, when we have had time to digest that, we will receive a trickle of follow-up statements, each one moving us closer and closer to the news he will not be back for ANY part of the tour. And maybe never be back at all.
Charlie Watts is 80 years old. We have no idea what the specific health issue is. But it feels more significant than anyone in The Stones organisation is admitting right now.
It's a worrying time. And with apologies for the dreadful pun, time is most certainly NOT on anyone's side in The Stones right now... Least of all Charlie!
Yes, getting another drummer in means a performance can take place, but it sure ain't The Stones. At least not for me. Mick and Keith, plus whoever else they can get to back them on stage, are NOT, and never will be The Stones. No more than their various solo endeavours were equivalent to The Stones.
And like a number of other postings have said, I too am uneasy about what today's news REALLY means. What was released to the press came straight from the keyboard of a press release writer. It says all the uplifting things you would expect. 'He hopes to be back soon'. 'He plans to rejoin the end of the tour'. Hopefully these statements are true. But I do not assume they are. Press releases are, of necessity, quite bland. Full of spin, bogus reassurance and faux-positivity. To me what we were given today is a statement that is playing for time. Something to introduce the fact that Charlie won't be there from the start. Absent from a tour for the first time EVER. Then, when we have had time to digest that, we will receive a trickle of follow-up statements, each one moving us closer and closer to the news he will not be back for ANY part of the tour. And maybe never be back at all.
Charlie Watts is 80 years old. We have no idea what the specific health issue is. But it feels more significant than anyone in The Stones organisation is admitting right now.
It's a worrying time. And with apologies for the dreadful pun, time is most certainly NOT on anyone's side in The Stones right now... Least of all Charlie!
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
gotdablouse
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:47
Quote
spoonful2
There was no "emergency surgery", I knew about this 9 days ago. Don't rule out him jumping back on the tour at some point, but don't be surprised if he doesn't.
What ?!
--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:47
Quote
spoonful2
There was no "emergency surgery", I knew about this 9 days ago. Don't rule out him jumping back on the tour at some point, but don't be surprised if he doesn't.
Nowhere does it state or imply that the emergency surgery happened in the last few days.
Clearly, others have known, - but to say "there was no emergency surgery" unless you have more info than your posting, doesn't ring true.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
rbk
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:51
It’ll be interesting to see how Steve Jordan gets along with Chuck Leavell. Both are, discretely, the “musical directors” of the Winos/solo Keith and the Stones, respectively.
Re: Charlie Watts pulls out of US tour after undergoing emergency surgery
Posted by:
floodonthepage
()
Date: August 5, 2021 16:52
Quote
spoonful2Quote
floodonthepage
A couple things seem clear to me...
1. Charlie wants this, according to the RS article. It sounds like HE asked Steve to do this, which makes a different for me.
2. The fact that theses shows are going forward doesn't (for me) mean that Keith or anyone else still doesn't feel the "No Charlie, No Stones" phrase. It means that the pandemic/contracts/insurers have them "in a spot", a spot that includes the livelihood of many a crew member. Charlie and everyone in the band are helping those people in many ways by going forward, not the least of which financially.
Less clear to me is....
3. The door does seem open for Charlie to come back during the tour, if not later in this tour then down the road with whatever plans they have that we are not aware of...that said, those plans may not include anymore US dates, and with that in mind do I want my (possibly) last Stones show to be w/o Charlie or do I skip the tour...knowing that if I (and enough other people) do that it may in some fashion hurt the larger/extended Stones family (the crew, etc.). I work with someone now who worked on their crew for Licks, and I can imagine what it means to people like him that the "show goes on"....not to mention what if (pie in the sky) Charlie comes back mid-tour...to experience that would be outstanding.
Lastly and ultimately, I think if this truly were a "Charlie is out" scenario, as in done with touring or worse.....if he had passed...then the "No Charlie, No Stones" would take hold and the band would stop. I could be wrong about that (as was exampled by the Who with Entwistle which has been pointed out was likely a contractual jam as well) but I'd like to think I'm right about that.
Charlie did not ask Steve Jordan to play for him, that was Mick and Keith. He was the obvious choice anyway.
The RS article indicated Charlie asked Steve. "I asked my great friend Steve....." something like that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-08-05 16:55 by floodonthepage.
This Thread has been closed
Online Users
chpoutre , deardoctor , doubledoor , Doxa , ds1984 , hot stuff , jmd , letitloose6 , mickv , NilsHolgersson , retired_dog , RollingFreak , wiredallnight
Guests:
1252
Record Number of Users:
206
on June 1, 2022 23:50
Record Number of Guests:
9627
on January 2, 2024 23:10