All the pix of Keith holding/playing a 12-string appear to be one & the same guitar. The pix of the guitar by itself doesn't appear to be the same one.The tailpiece is different & the pickguard has been removed. If I bought Keith's guitar I wouldn't modify it at all. I might change the tailpiece but I'd keep the original & put it back on if I were going to re-sell it. I certainly would not put a pickguard on & then remove it .

Still can't find anything about the mystery acoustic from RSG June 1965. It could be a Gibson but the pickguard worries me. All the pix I can find of Gigsons from this era have a guard that ends in a point just where it touches the end of the fingerboard. This one butts up flush against the fingerboard . I'll keep looking.

thanks, Vox12String, for the confirmation on that Harmony 12-string.
i agree of course that the notion that someone modified one of Keith's old guitars is pretty weird;
but anyway i'm more interested in identifying the instruments Keith used/uses than in pinpointing what they were auctioning.

here's another shot of that Mystery Guitar in case it's any help - and if anyone wants the sense-surround version,
Keith's got that same guitar on (eureka!) the Ed Sullivan Show performance of As Tears Go By (february 1966).


- RSG june 1965, by Dezo Hoffman (courtesy of BrownEyedGirll)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-19 18:50 by with sssoul.

Does that headstock say Epiphone? I'm going to google even as we speak

This might be the wrong thread for this question, but does someone have a list of which tv shows were live performance, which were live vocal over taped backing, and which were just miming?

cc

CC, nzentgraf.de seems to keep pretty good track of that, if you look up the individual shows.
Vox12String, i don't see anything there that looks quite like this one
on that vintage guitar site - [www.provide.net] -
but several of the models they show have that shape pickguard.
on the Sullivan show you never get to see the headstock, but it's cool to watch anyway. :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-03-22 15:38 by with sssoul.

Yup I've just googled & the pickguard says Epiphone, can't find the model tho. I'll have to get my vid of the Sullivan shows & have a look tomorrow.

haul out Charlie Is My Darling while you're at it, Vox12String -
it looks like Keith's playing that "intermezzo" and Salty Dog on the Mystery Epiphone as well. it sure sounds fine!

RollingStonesRob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a photo from 1966 of Keith using a guild
> 12-string and he and brian are sharing a marijuana
> joint together.

Here is the photo, but kind of hard to see the guitar. It is definitely a 12-string, though.


--- by Michael Cooper

That's probably the session (sessions) for Ruby Tuesday.
Note the 12-string with a capo which is one the song's trademarks.

How does the capo figue in the song tom?

Well, Tuesday is in the key G on the record,
and it's a 12-string he's playing on the record.
From the angle in that photo, it looks like he's playing
it at capo 3, which would be in a D position for the major chord.
The 12-string is playing along the piano on this track.
That's an old 60's recording trick, to double the 12 sting with
a piano, witness A Hard day's night.
Mind you, maybe there were outtakes from Buttons that used this guitar setup.
Who's been sleeping here? has an acoustic, but it's not
a 12 string. Same with Backstreet Girl.

How does the capo at the 3rd fret make it a D chord?
I thought the accoustic in Sleeping was a 12 string. I could be wrong though. I am trying to hear it in my head. The acc guitar doesn some pretty hard strumming in between the vocals so that leans to a 6 string, but for some reason I recall hearing the sound of 1w strings on there.
But back to Tuesday: am trying to get that sound.
BTW that is very interesting about the doubling of 12 string and piano.

First of all here's a pic of (possibly) that same 12-string that I posted yesterday on the Brian's guitars thread, but it ain't a Guild. Note the plastic pegs.

[/URL]

Secondly, sorry, but Ruby is in the key of C. The chords of the first line are
Am - G - F - G - C
The 3rd line goes - Am - D - G , & that D chord might be the confusing factor.

What this means is that if Keith is in standard tuning he wouldn't need a capo, but if he's tuned down 2 or 3 frets then he'd need the capo to bring him back up to concert pitch playing the above chords.

Who's been Sleeping sounds like his Gibson, capoed on the 3rd fret, in the D position which allows you to go down to the C position at the end of the 1st & 2nd lines.

It is indeed in the key of C. What was I smoking?
I think it's all this head cold medicine I've been taking.
He only plays it on the chorus and that ends on G. Maybe I got it there.
What about If You Let Me? That's 12-string, and it could be capoed.
And I think they're from the same time period.
I forgot about that one. Interesting tune.

>> I think it's all this head cold medicine I've been taking. <<
doctor prescribes, drugstore supplies - don't worry TomK, we'll help you to kick it. :E

>> What about If You Let Me? That's 12-string, and it could be capoed. And I think they're from the same time period. <<
according to timeisonourside.com, If You Let Me was recorded in august/september 66; Ruby Tuesday was (of course) november 66.

.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-03-22 15:40 by with sssoul.

sorry! don't know what got into me :E

I'v been a Stones fan for over 40 years & I've never seen One Plus One (!) but the stills I've got from it show Brian playing the J-200

okay, so on another thread recently - [iorr.org] - Mathijs confirmed that the guitar Brian's got in One Plus One
is the same instrument that Keith uses for No Expectations in Rock & Roll Circus; he further said it's not a J-200 but a J-185, which is a slimmer model.
Mathijs of course sure knows his stuff - but this shot of it made me wonder which bit of it is slimmer, and/or how fat a J-200 must be. :E


- dec 10th/11th 1968, courtesy of Sergey Grigoryan

and while i'm here ... the guitar in this charming shot (thank you Rockman!) isn't apparently Keith's, but it would be nice to identify it.
it's not a Gibson Hummingbird; a post over on the Keno site states that it's an Epiphone Hummingbird,
but that doesn't seem right either. if any of you fine patient learned Guitar Experts could identify it for us,
that would be lovely, thank you. have some popcorn. :E


- 1969, by Thomas Monaster (courtesy of Rockman)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-03-10 00:39 by with sssoul.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> here's another shot of that Mystery Guitar in case
> it's any help - and if anyone wants the
> sense-surround version,
> Keith's got that same guitar on (eureka!) the Ed
> Sullivan Show performance of As Tears Go By
> (february 1966).
>

This guitar isn't so mysterious: it's a 1965 Gibson Heritage, Gibson's stab at the Martin D-28.

Mathijs

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> okay, so on another thread recently - - Mathijs
> confirmed that the guitar Brian's got in One Plus
> One
> is the same instrument that Keith uses for No
> Expectations in Rock & Roll Circus; he further
> said it's not a J-200 but a J-185, which is a
> slimmer model.
> Mathijs of course sure knows his stuff - but this
> shot of it made me wonder which bit of it is
> slimmer, and/or how fat a J-200 must be. :E
>
>
> - dec 10th/11th 1968, courtesy of Sergey Grigoryan


The guitar pictured HERE is a J200. However, the guitar pictured (for example) on the cover of the John Philips album is a J-185. I just checked some pics of the R&R Circus, and it's a J200 used, not a J-185. Best way to check wich guitar is used is to look at the bridge: a J-185 has a small strip of wood with Malteze crosses laid in, a J-200 has a large, moustache like bridge.

Mathijs

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and while i'm here ... the guitar in this charming
> shot (thank you Rockman!) isn't apparently
> Keith's, but it would be nice to identify it.
> it's not a Gibson Hummingbird; a FAQ over on the
> Keno site states that it's an Epiphone
> Hummingbird,
> but ... ... that doesn't seem right either. if
> any of you fine patient learned Guitar Experts
> could identify it for us,
> that would be lovely, thank you. have some
> popcorn. :E
>

This is a Epiphone Frontier. These guitars were very much comparable to the best of Gibson, and for some reason they were prefered by Americana/country artists like The Byrds and Gram Parsons. The guitar pictured here is owned by Stephen Stills, and the picture is taken at his house.

Mathijs

thank you thank you thank you, Mathijs! have some popcorn - have some confetti of admiration!

that guitar that the good Vox12String and i were calling the "Mystery Guitar" ... we wound up deciding it was an Epiphone, not a Gibson,
largely because of the way the pickguard meets the neck (the Gibson pickguards we found all seem to end in a point) -
but i will for sure start looking at the 1965 Gibson Heritage model. thank you!

... okay, this is what i found on the Gibson Heritage, over on [www.provide.net]:
Heritage Flattop
Available: 1965 to 1982
Collectibility Rating: D
Because this is a square shoulder guitar, there aren't a lot of collectors interested in this model.
1965 Heritage introduction specs:
16.25" wide, square shoulder dreadnought, solid rosewood back and sides, ebony bridge with top belly and adjustable ebony saddle, elongated teardrop tortoise pickguard, tortoise binding on top and back, 25.5" scale unbound ebony fingerboard with dot inlays, no peghead ornamentation, decal "gibson" peghead logo, natural finish.

and here's a rerun of the clearest shot i have of Keith's "Mystery Guitar" for comparison:


- june 1965, by Dezo Hoffman (courtesy of BrownEyedGirll)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-03-09 20:42 by with sssoul.

The problem with Gibson acoustics is that the factory seemed to sometimes make up models on the spot, with one-off's in abundance. For example, the Heritage was introduced in 1965, and it was a lower cost model (the J200, Hummingbird and Dove being the flagships). When the guitar was build, parts were used that were available that day, so you see Heritage's with different pickguards, tuners, bridges, fingerboard inlays etc. You can see Keith's guitar is a '65, as only this year had the longer pickguard. In '66 it received a shorter, more like Martin, pickguard.

And about the collectability of these models: later Heritiage's didn't have solid backs and sides, but laminates. This is the main reason for them being less collectable. Square shoulder flat tops have never been as collectable as round shouldered flat tops, but that seems to change lately, as the amound of vintage guitars available on the market is diminishing. Anything with Brazilian rosewood is collectable!

Mathijs

thanks for the always-fascinating insights, Mathijs!
so in those 1965 Heritage specs, "elongated teardrop pickguard" means that non-pointy kind that looks more typical of Epiphones?

i've been hunting around for photos of Heritage flattops;
so far all i've found is this 1970 model, by which time they'd made a few changes from the 1965 specs:


- courtesy of [www.vintage-guitars.se]

so ... what is it about the square-shoulder acoustics that made them less attractive to collectors?
i understand about laminates being less collectable, but what's wrong with square shoulders?? they look good on Keith! :E

Square shoulders are less collectable mainly due to the estatics -the old fashioned cowboys and blue grass' hill billies with their priced '30's flat tops just didn't like the more modern look, amd due to the decline in quality: from about 1964 Gibson changed from a relative small company with hand built instruments to a large company with a much larger output. Wood and built quality really decreased. In 1969 Gibson was sold to the Norlin company, and quality really went down. The decrease in quality coincidentally occured when the square shoulder flat tops were introduced.

An heritage with the elongated pickguard is quite rare, as in the first year few instruments were build. Later models can nowadays be bougth for small money, say $1500, which is an absolute bargain for a Brazilian rosewood flat top.

Mathijs

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Keith wore that shirt a lot in 72, of course; but
> then in Ladies & Gentlemen Keith's playing
> Sweet Virginia on a Hummingbird, so ...
> so anyway, here's a sweet backstage shot of the
> Hummingbird in 72:
>
>
> - 1972, courtesy of the Keno site

No, this guitar is not a Hummingbird. It is a perfect example of the mismatch guitars Gibson came out with: the body of a Country & Western, the neck of a J-55, and the pickguard of an Hummingbird. These guitars left the factory most likely in 1970, a year when Gibson used all remainig stock to built as many as guitars as possible.

Mathijs

on another site recently, the gallant Crossfire Hurricane directed me to this fine site: [www.theboxcar.com]
where there's a bunch of photos from Keith's 2004 appearance at the Boxcar, where he joined Honeyboy Edwards for part of a set.
i've been curious for a while about that resonator Keith had at that historic occasion, but never had a photo where you could really see it.
from these shots it appears Keith borrowed the instrument, but [a] you can see it pretty well in some of them,
and i'd be interested in knowing what it is, if any of you can identify it. thanks! and yeah, i'll make some popcorn. :E