isn't the land-bridge theory under question now?

[www.history.com].

what this has to do w/ SWB, I have no idea.

we probably came from aliens anyway. I blame them.

[compote.slate.com]

Quote
TravelinMan
I’m honestly blown away most people here didn’t know Jagger took that line from a book. Explains a lot really.

Are the origins of the line considered "common (Stones) knowledge?"

(I'm asking honestly b/c I really don't know)

there are far more knowledgeable people than me on this board, so I won't pretend to know more than the fact that this is the first I ever heard of this origin-story.

where did you hear/read about the origins of the line?

and, is it "fact" that the book is where he got it? It seems so to me, but unless somebody in the band said so, it's speculative.

Quote
TravelinMan
I’m honestly blown away most people here didn’t know Jagger took that line from a book. Explains a lot really.

Explains a lot about what? If you are meaning to be insulting, don't beat around the bush. Go ahead and say it.

Quote
jbwelda
Mostly though, they shorten it to "n***a".

Professor, if you want to hear more send me an email jbwelda at gmail dot com. Don't really have any great stories, but was around her quite a bit at one time, way later than any of this controversy, mid and late 80s mostly. Mostly seminars and workshops about political situations.

jb

jb,

Is it okay for me to email you also? I would like some guidance on reggae (I know most of the major artists, but would like to know more about obscure, but excellent artists).

Also, I might be interested in any books you have written about music (most any style).

Thanks,

Elmo aka Scotty

"No Anchovies, Please"

Interesting stuff here about the origin of the n-word line in "Sweet Black Angel". Everytime I hear the line, I cannot help but Agatha Christie comes to my mind, although I have never bothered to think that further. But yeah, there seems to be the counting out nursery rhyme behind there (the one Christie's famous book is based on). It looks like - Wiki says - that it derives from America from the 19th Century, and for example variant (deeply racist) minstrel show songs were build around the idea. And when those shows visited Europe, the songs and the different variants of the rhyme spreaded.

But from where Mick exactly picked up the phrase? Could very well be that from his childhood memories, probably knowing the counting out rhyme by heart.

What goes for the difficult issue of how to view the use of n-word in past rock lyrics... And we are not talking about some marginal artists, but the biggest and most celebrated names of the whole circus: Lennon, Dylan, Jagger, Randy Newman, Patti Smith... Interesting is that all of these uses are done for a 'good cause', with no any intent to be racist or offensive an sich. But does that justify it? Seemingly this issue has been discussed lately, especially in the context of Dylan's "Hurricane". I don't want to sound like a battle charge here, and the issue is way too complicated to throw an "opinion" that is not based on some deep reflection. But here is an interesting article, discussing mostly Dylan's "Hurricane": [eu.postcrescent.com]

- Doxa



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-27 17:42 by Doxa.

Are we still discussing the ‘n-word’, ‘nigger’?

I’m surprised at the interest, to be honest. It’s quite clear to the Stones’ usage of the term in Sweet Black Angel is not meant as a racial-slur. It’s almost a pastiche of a different time. He clearly took the line from the book, as other’s have mentioned, here. Jagger clearly wouldn’t use the word today, obviously.

Look: it’s a nasty word that’s largely, and rightly, been expelled from usage. Hip-hop artists and some black folk may use it, but there you go. It isn’t something I think about, really.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-27 18:36 by Big Al.

Quote
Elmo Lewis

jb,

Is it okay for me to email you also? I would like some guidance on reggae (I know most of the major artists, but would like to know more about obscure, but excellent artists).

Also, I might be interested in any books you have written about music (most any style).

Thanks,

Elmo aka Scotty

Sure Elmo, drop me a line, would be happy to talk reggae with you. There are a number of labels you should be aware of, modern reissue labels that have brought out some of the best in kind of obscure classics from the time.

Dont know where you might have gotten the idea I have written books but its not so. Have contributed to a few reggae books over the years though, and written a few articles that were published in magazines or fan zines.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

jb

Quote
Doxa
Interesting stuff here about the origin of the n-word line in "Sweet Black Angel". Everytime I hear the line, I cannot help but Agatha Christie comes to my mind, although I have never bothered to think that further. But yeah, there seems to be the counting out nursery rhyme behind there (the one Christie's famous book is based on). It looks like - Wiki says - that it derives from America from the 19th Century, and for example variant (deeply racist) minstrel show songs were build around the idea. And when those shows visited Europe, the songs and the different variants of the rhyme spreaded.

But from where Mick exactly picked up the phrase? Could very well be that from his childhood memories, probably knowing the counting out rhyme by heart.

What goes for the difficult issue of how to view the use of n-word in past rock lyrics... And we are not talking about some marginal artists, but the biggest and most celebrated names of the whole circus: Lennon, Dylan, Jagger, Randy Newman, Patti Smith... Interesting is that all of these uses are done for a 'good cause', with no any intent to be racist or offensive an sich. But does that justify it? Seemingly this issue has been discussed lately, especially in the context of Dylan's "Hurricane". I don't want to sound like a battle charge here, and the issue is way too complicated to throw an "opinion" that is not based on some deep reflection. But here is an interesting article, discussing mostly Dylan's "Hurricane": [eu.postcrescent.com]

- Doxa

good stuff, Doxa.



in the end, I'm "glad" that the Stones decided to ditch the song live.

I just don't like word, regardless of intent, regardless of who says it.

Quote
Big Al
Are we still discussing the ‘n-word’, ‘nigger’?

I’m surprised at the interest, to be honest. It’s quite clear to the Stones’ usage of the term in Sweet Black Angel is not meant as a racial-slur. It’s almost a pastiche of a different time. He clearly took the line from the book, as other’s have mentioned, here. Jagger clearly wouldn’t use the word today, obviously.

Look: it’s a nasty word that’s largely, and rightly, been expelled from usage. Hip-hop artists and some black folk may use it, but there you go. It isn’t something I think about, really.

agree.

but, that's the great debate, isn't it? Does it have to be used w/ malicious intent for it to be considered a "racial slur?"

or is the word itself a "racial slur" irrespective of context or intent?

Kant would say "the former"...but, he's a stuffy old white dude from a different era.

I think today, if it's used by anybody who is not African American, it's the latter....that "sucks" for white dudes who wanna write a book (or songs) which has characters that would likely drop the word in real life....but, too f'n bad, IMO....If "you're not allowed to use N-Bombs in any context" is the biggest sacrifice white-folk have to make for the good of the order, so be it.....

If black people want to seize ownership over the word, I'm fine w/ that. I still don't like the word, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-27 20:47 by stickyfingers101.

Quote
stickyfingers101

Quote
Big Al
Are we still discussing the ‘n-word’, ‘nigger’?

I’m surprised at the interest, to be honest. It’s quite clear to the Stones’ usage of the term in Sweet Black Angel is not meant as a racial-slur. It’s almost a pastiche of a different time. He clearly took the line from the book, as other’s have mentioned, here. Jagger clearly wouldn’t use the word today, obviously.

Look: it’s a nasty word that’s largely, and rightly, been expelled from usage. Hip-hop artists and some black folk may use it, but there you go. It isn’t something I think about, really.

agree.

but, that's the great debate, isn't it? Does it have to be used w/ malicious intent for it to be considered a "racial slur?"

or is the word itself a "racial slur" irrespective of context or intent?

Kant would say "the former"...but, he's a stuffy old white dude from a different era.

I think today, if it's used by anybody who is not African American, it's the latter....that "sucks" for white dudes who wanna write a book (or songs) which has characters that would likely drop the word in real life....but, too f'n bad, IMO....If "you're not allowed to use N-Bombs in any context" is the biggest sacrifice white-folk have to make for the good of the order, so be it.....

If black people want to seize ownership over the word, I'm fine w/ that. I still don't like the word, though.

YUP. Small price to pay.

Quote
stickyfingers101

Quote
Big Al
Are we still discussing the ‘n-word’, ‘nigger’?

I’m surprised at the interest, to be honest. It’s quite clear to the Stones’ usage of the term in Sweet Black Angel is not meant as a racial-slur. It’s almost a pastiche of a different time. He clearly took the line from the book, as other’s have mentioned, here. Jagger clearly wouldn’t use the word today, obviously.

Look: it’s a nasty word that’s largely, and rightly, been expelled from usage. Hip-hop artists and some black folk may use it, but there you go. It isn’t something I think about, really.

agree.

but, that's the great debate, isn't it? Does it have to be used w/ malicious intent for it to be considered a "racial slur?"

or is the word itself a "racial slur" irrespective of context or intent?

Kant would say "the former"...but, he's a stuffy old white dude from a different era.

I think today, if it's used by anybody who is not African American, it's the latter....that "sucks" for white dudes who wanna write a book (or songs) which has characters that would likely drop the word in real life....but, too f'n bad, IMO....If "you're not allowed to use N-Bombs in any context" is the biggest sacrifice white-folk have to make for the good of the order, so be it.....

If black people want to seize ownership over the word, I'm fine w/ that. I still don't like the word, though.

YUP. Small price to pay.

EDIT, and after I posted that, I realized it really wasn't ANY price to pay.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-27 22:58 by treaclefingers.

Quote
stickyfingers101

Quote
TravelinMan
I’m honestly blown away most people here didn’t know Jagger took that line from a book. Explains a lot really.

Are the origins of the line considered "common (Stones) knowledge?"

(I'm asking honestly b/c I really don't know)

there are far more knowledgeable people than me on this board, so I won't pretend to know more than the fact that this is the first I ever heard of this origin-story.

where did you hear/read about the origins of the line?

and, is it "fact" that the book is where he got it? It seems so to me, but unless somebody in the band said so, it's speculative.

I read it from multiple sources, and it’s been long ago so I can’t tell you where exactly. Maybe one was the Exile 33 1/3 book.

I highly doubt Jagger would construct a line like that by coincidence, what would be the odds? It doesn’t even make sense otherwise.

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NashvilleBlues

Quote
TravelinMan
I’m honestly blown away most people here didn’t know Jagger took that line from a book. Explains a lot really.

Explains a lot about what? If you are meaning to be insulting, don't beat around the bush. Go ahead and say it.

It explains a lot of the outcry here by people not understanding why he used it and its origin. Or comparing him to Bob Dylan or god forbid Axl Rose. It’s a play on an archaic rhyme/poem/song not some random line he drew up for the hell of it. If you want to go deep and think about Jagger as the modern minstrel, well I’m sure he was quite aware he was singing black music as a white guy. Jagger is educated and quite well read.

Brown Sugar has more offensive lyrics about slave ships and whipping slavemasters

Quote
Taylor1
Brown Sugar has more offensive lyrics about slave ships and whipping slavemasters

and women as chattel and sex slaves and here solely for the purpose of exploitation and exhibition. Wait, most Stones songs do that. Never mind.

jb

(just joking, don't get all bent)

Quote
jbwelda

Quote
Taylor1
Brown Sugar has more offensive lyrics about slave ships and whipping slavemasters

and women as chattel and sex slaves and here solely for the purpose of exploitation and exhibition. Wait, most Stones songs do that. Never mind.

jb

(just joking, don't get all bent)

You must have seen the Black and Blue billboard!

As an Irish person, I love the Rolling Stones.
As a son who saw his father knocked down by British soldiers, I respect and admire the accomplishments of both the Irish and English peoples and know that any peoples have made historical errors. I don't know any serious Irish people who are still bitter about Cromwell or the Famine or centuries of colonialism, etc.
We need to stop making victims of Black peoples or Brown peoples or whatever subdivision you want to divide us into. It's not helpful for anybody. It's all a bullshit construct anyway.
And I can't believe some Stones fans don't know understand the meaning of Brown Sugar.

Does anyone believe that the word “cheese head” (direct translation from “kaaskop”) will truly insult Dutch people?
Anyone feeling insulted by “motherf*ck*r” or “son of a b*tch” or “cabron” or “p*ta” or whatever?
As a kid my mom told me that swearing doesn’t hurt, it only says something about the mindsetting of the person who uses those words. It’s nothing more than mental weakness when directing it to anyone hoping to hurt that person.
You know, I’m a “kaaskop”. So what?



I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

..wouldnt mind a dollar for everytime
I've been called a Kangaroo bastard ...

never harmed ... water offa duck's back ....



ROCKMAN

Quote
georgie48
Does anyone believe that the word “cheese head” (direct translation from “kaaskop”) will truly insult Dutch people?
Anyone feeling insulted by “motherf*ck*r” or “son of a b*tch” or “cabron” or “p*ta” or whatever?
As a kid my mom told me that swearing doesn’t hurt, it only says something about the mindsetting of the person who uses those words. It’s nothing more than mental weakness when directing it to anyone hoping to hurt that person.
You know, I’m a “kaaskop”. So what?

This reminds me of Bruce Willis saying, ‘cheese dick’, in the Die Hard films.

The IORR Band had a go at it in London, 2016. It does feel weird singing the lyrics, though (I know about the nursery rhyme ).





[www.youtube.com]

Quote
Rockman
..wouldnt mind a dollar for everytime
I've been called a Kangaroo bastard ...

never harmed ... water offa duck's back ....

Went to Down Under several times, but didn't know Kangaroos were guilty of adultery!
I met lots of them in the Grampians NP. They (including Joey's!) even curiously observed me from close by when I was "playing" with my iPad in the wild. I wouldn't mind being called a Kookaburra, though

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Quote
DandelionPowderman
The IORR Band had a go at it in London, 2016. It does feel weird singing the lyrics, though (I know about the nursery rhyme ).





[www.youtube.com]

That’s terrific

I wasn’t able to catch your performance in London the last time, but will most definitely attempt to be there if you’re able to visit one day soon. I’ve watched the videos and it’s clear you put on such a terrific show!

Quote
DandelionPowderman
The IORR Band had a go at it in London, 2016. It does feel weird singing the lyrics, though (I know about the nursery rhyme ).





[www.youtube.com]

then why not change it?

"ten little brothers" works just fine.

Went to Down Under several times, but didn't know Kangaroos were guilty of adultery!

You kangaroo bastard is a slang title for
a white Australian guy ... often used by
indigenous .. Italian's ... Greeks ... English ....etc

As I say its taken as a joke ... water offa ducks back....



ROCKMAN

"cheesehead" and "kangaroo bastard" are not the same (nor are any of the generalized non-racial insults like "m-fer" and "p*ta" etc). Not even close.

first of all, the first two aren't even racial - they are cultural. They don't apply to all whites, everywhere...they are country-specific and make little sense outside of it

secondly, the latter are generalized, non-specific and not directed at any one race....

However, if you are still confused as to why N-Bomb is different, I suggest hanging out w/ more black-folks and asking them.

However, if you really want to know how/why it is different: go up to any black person anywhere and drop an N-bomb on them....see what happens.

there's a reason that basically every black person is going to take offense (in varying degrees of extremity)...and it's NOT b/c black people "just can't let it go" or that they are being "irrational"...or that you are so much more sophisticated b/c insulting-words don't bother you.

...it's b/c the word has a history and ubiquity of horrific ugliness that is incomparable to any other word....

to anyone interested, there's a whole bunch of books written about the word....here's one I suggest:

[www.amazon.com]

happy reading!

oh...and, for the record, a "cheesehead" in the USA is a Green Bay Packers fan.

[i.dailymail.co.uk]

...it's also a crappy type of string cheese, if you want to call it "cheese"

[images.albertsons-media.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-29 12:24 by stickyfingers101.

Hey yeah .... wasnt suggesting it was ...
I cant handle the word ... never used it never will .....



ROCKMAN

Quote
stickyfingers101
"cheesehead" and "kangaroo bastard" are not the same (nor are any of the generalized non-racial insults like "m-fer" and "p*ta" etc). Not even close.

first of all, the first two aren't even racial - they are cultural. They don't apply to all whites, everywhere...they are country-specific and make little sense outside of it

secondly, the latter are generalized, non-specific and not directed at any one race....

However, if you are still confused as to why N-Bomb is different, I suggest hanging out w/ more black-folks and asking them.

However, if you really want to know how/why it is different: go up to any black person anywhere and drop an N-bomb on them....see what happens.

there's a reason that basically every black person is going to take offense (in varying degrees of extremity)...and it's NOT b/c black people "just can't let it go" or that they are being "irrational"...or that you are so much more sophisticated b/c insulting-words don't bother you.

...it's b/c the word has a history and ubiquity of horrific ugliness that is incomparable to any other word....

to anyone interested, there's a whole bunch of books written about the word....here's one I suggest:

[www.amazon.com]

happy reading!

oh...and, for the record, a "cheesehead" in the USA is a Green Bay Packers fan.

[i.dailymail.co.uk]

...it's also a crappy type of string cheese, if you want to call it "cheese"

[images.albertsons-media.com]

Don't think I do not understand the impact of N-Bomb, I really do. I was, as a whity, among black people several times. What I enjoyed (when followed by big laughter) was that in some occasions some talked to eachother using the "word" themselves, but sometimes also with a serious or angry looking face! I also confronted people humiliating others with "words" with my "killing look". You don't want to see my "killing look"!
No, what I merely wanted to say is that people using the n-word (but also similar sh*tty words to f.i. Indians) basically show there own state of mind, being a sick or deeply frustrated mind, as such showing their own inferiority. Train yourself to see them like that, it helps

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town