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stickyfingers101

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jbwelda
the so called n word was in pretty common use back in those days and didnt carry the heavy connation it does today. Hell there was a (Lil Black, originally) Sambo's pancake house on the corner of my block. In California no less.

But back to Rockman, bro you throw down a Charlie Parker and I will follow with a Robt Johnson and we will have a good old drive.

jb

I agree with you in a sense.

However, what other album(s) by white artists have included that word?

the only other album I know of is Gn'R "Lies" in 1988.

Not saying you are wrong....but, I find it hard to believe that white-artists throwing around N-Bombs publicly was very common in 1972....or any other year.

I certainly could be wrong, but I'd like some more evidence of the "commonality" in terms of musicians and/or albums.

I simply find it hard to believe that someone like Mick didn't think about whether or not he wanted to be singing "n-bomb" over and over, every night, night after night....around black people and black artists, no less.

I don't claim to know, but I'd honestly be "disappointed" in Mick if this didn't cross his mind. No chance he didn't know in 1972 that the word was "controversial" and/or "hurtful"....or if he didn't know, then he is a lot dumber and lamer than I thought...

as stated previously: I think it was lame to include the word in the first place...it adds nothing to the song, IMO, and makes it essentially un-listenable for me anymore....

just my 2 cents.

by the way, nice plants JB!.....go America!

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Doxa

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stickyfingers101

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jbwelda
the so called n word was in pretty common use back in those days and didnt carry the heavy connation it does today. Hell there was a (Lil Black, originally) Sambo's pancake house on the corner of my block. In California no less.

But back to Rockman, bro you throw down a Charlie Parker and I will follow with a Robt Johnson and we will have a good old drive.

jb

I agree with you in a sense.

However, what other album(s) by white artists have included that word?

the only other album I know of is Gn'R "Lies" in 1988.

Not saying you are wrong....but, I find it hard to believe that white-artists throwing around N-Bombs publicly was very common in 1972....or any other year.

I certainly could be wrong, but I'd like some more evidence of the "commonality" in terms of musicians and/or albums.

I simply find it hard to believe that someone like Mick didn't think about whether or not he wanted to be singing "n-bomb" over and over, every night, night after night....around black people and black artists, no less.

I don't claim to know, but I'd honestly be "disappointed" in Mick if this didn't cross his mind. No chance he didn't know in 1972 that the word was "controversial" and/or "hurtful"....or if he didn't know, then he is a lot dumber and lamer than I thought...

as stated previously: I think it was lame to include the word in the first place...it adds nothing to the song, IMO, and makes it essentially un-listenable for me anymore....

just my 2 cents.

by the way, nice plants JB!.....go America!

Well, from those days comes to my mind at least Lennon's song "Woman Is the N-word of the World", starting from the very title. Released the same year as "Sweet Black Angel". Then Dylan uses it in "Hurricane" (1975). A few years later Patti Smith named one song as "Rock'n'Roll N-word". The Sex Pistols sing/shout in "The Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle" about "Mick Jagger White N-word" (there you go, Mick...).

- Doxa

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Mathijs
I still have a children's book for learning to read from the mid-1950's called 'tien kleine negertjes' ('Ten Little Niggers'), with the line ''ten little niggers were sitting on a wall, one fell off and became a pain in the ass'. (Tien kleine negers zaten op een muur, eentje viel er af en maakte ons het leven zuur').

I understand this was a popular rhyme in England as well, and no doubt the inspiration for the line in Sweet Black Angel.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
I still have a children's book for learning to read from the mid-1950's called 'tien kleine negertjes' ('Ten Little Niggers'), with the line ''ten little niggers were sitting on a wall, one fell off and became a pain in the ass'. (Tien kleine negers zaten op een muur, eentje viel er af en maakte ons het leven zuur').

I understand this was a popular rhyme in England as well, and no doubt the inspiration for the line in Sweet Black Angel.

Mathijs

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stickyfingers101

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Mathijs
I still have a children's book for learning to read from the mid-1950's called 'tien kleine negertjes' ('Ten Little Niggers'), with the line ''ten little niggers were sitting on a wall, one fell off and became a pain in the ass'. (Tien kleine negers zaten op een muur, eentje viel er af en maakte ons het leven zuur').

I understand this was a popular rhyme in England as well, and no doubt the inspiration for the line in Sweet Black Angel.

Mathijs

Wow. This is huge.

is this a book in English?

I always wondered WTF was up w/ that line about "sitting on a wall"....looks like he simply lifted the entire 1st half of the phrase and manipulated the 2nd half to his liking.....

geebus.

now I'm wondering if he chose not to keep performing it b/c he was worried somebody would eventually make the connection to where he got the lyric...

The word sux either way, but IMO, it certainly seems less "artistic" or "edgy" (or whatever) that he simply plagiarized a racist line from a racist children's book.

IMO, the word is lame, it undermines the song's worth and he never should've included it....

and if this is indeed the source of the lyric, I find it an even lamer inclusion....

just my opinion.

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stickyfingers101

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Mathijs
I still have a children's book for learning to read from the mid-1950's called 'tien kleine negertjes' ('Ten Little Niggers'), with the line ''ten little niggers were sitting on a wall, one fell off and became a pain in the ass'. (Tien kleine negers zaten op een muur, eentje viel er af en maakte ons het leven zuur').

I understand this was a popular rhyme in England as well, and no doubt the inspiration for the line in Sweet Black Angel.

Mathijs

Wow. This is huge.

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jbwelda
If you ask me, Ten Little Indians is not much of an improvement. Unless they are talking about people from India.

But that will get me off on another tangential tirade about the injustices of the world, a world in which people are called "Indians" because those who "discovered" them were totally lost and thought they were in India, and meanwhile the native peoples were nice and naive enuff to not just kill them all where they stand and end the eventual exploitation then and there. Or at least forestall it.

"Wild horses couldn't drag me away" was a common phrase way before that movie or the Rolling Stones. They appropriated the saying for the song, as they did with "time waits for no one". Not all that clever nor original.

jb

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Re: Sweet Black Angel Live
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: May 23, 2021 19:43

Let me give you a short bio to clear up some confusion here:


Despite your fantasies, jb is a "dude". jb has lived as an adult in Papua New Guinea, Australia, and Jamaica for extended periods of time and grew up mostly in the Philippines and Guam with a little time in Japan. Most of the rest of my life has been spent in California. Served a short stint in federal prison in the mid seventies for a little indiscretion involving transporting substances over international boundaries. Worked on and received a degree in Computer Science and then a further degree in Engineering before working for private industry in California for thirty or so years with some leaves of absence to pursue other goals. Been involved in bringing reggae music to the states for about thirty years or so now, including major work with the Sierra Nevada World Music Festival and working with a lot of people in the music industry over the years, including the Bill Graham organization. Have been involved with a number of somewhat "fringe" organizations over the years so have that experience under my belt as well. Not going to go into exactly what organizations I am alluding to, but will say, could have been arrested more than once for some of the things I have been involved with in my association with those people and groups.

So if you think you are dealing with some inbred halfwit who has never left his nest, you are wrong.

Anyone is welcome to come visit me and we will have a good time, I can promise you that.

thanks
jb

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If you ask me, Ten Little Indians is not much of an improvement. Unless they are talking about people from India.

But that will get me off on another tangential tirade about the injustices of the world, a world in which people are called "Indians" because those who "discovered" them were totally lost and thought they were in India, and meanwhile the native peoples were nice and naive enuff to not just kill them all where they stand and end the eventual exploitation then and there. Or at least forestall it.

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I heard her talk about it in person on a couple of occasions.

All that aside, I love the song myself. Just think the whole Angela Davis connection is contrived and not appreciated from the subject's corner.

You think white privilege is bullshit, and I bet you are white. Quite a common coinkidink I have found.

And good one about the s'mores.

jb

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Big Al
I think the usage of the word in hip-hop is, really, to do with ownership and impact: the hip-hop community have taken the word for themselves. That’s fine with me: the explosive gangsta rap of the late-eighties and early-nighties wouldn’t have had quite the same impact without its excessive usage. Listen to N.W.A.’s Straight Outta Compton. It wouldn’t be the same.

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Big Al
I think the usage of the word in hip-hop is, really, to do with ownership and impact: the hip-hop community have taken the word for themselves. That’s fine with me: the explosive gangsta rap of the late-eighties and early-nighties wouldn’t have had quite the same impact without its excessive usage. Listen to N.W.A.’s Straight Outta Compton. It wouldn’t be the same.

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jbwelda
If you ask me, Ten Little Indians is not much of an improvement. Unless they are talking about people from India.

But that will get me off on another tangential tirade about the injustices of the world, a world in which people are called "Indians" because those who "discovered" them were totally lost and thought they were in India, and meanwhile the native peoples were nice and naive enuff to not just kill them all where they stand and end the eventual exploitation then and there. Or at least forestall it.

"Wild horses couldn't drag me away" was a common phrase way before that movie or the Rolling Stones. They appropriated the saying for the song, as they did with "time waits for no one". Not all that clever nor original.
The Native American are not native to America.They came over the land bridge from Siberia to Alaska 20000 years ago.They were according to the latest dna testing 70 percent asiatic but 30 percent Europeans! So Europeans are native to Americaunder that definition.Likewise according to dna testing and scientific evidence, all Europeans derive from dark skinned Africans who came out of East Africa and made their way eventually to Europe.The only native people of Europe appear to have been Neatherdals

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DandelionPowderman
They were Asiatic-Russians, weren't they?

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Taylor1

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DandelionPowderman
They were Asiatic-Russians, weren't they?

There was no country of Russia, but according to DNA tests and scientific research, they were 30 percent what would be considered Caucasian .

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Taylor1

The Native American are not native to America.They came over the land bridge from Siberia to Alaska 20000 years ago.They were according to the latest dna testing 70 percent asiatic but 30 percent Europeans! So Europeans are native to Americaunder that definition.Likewise according to dna testing and scientific evidence, all Europeans derive from dark skinned Africans who came out of East Africa and made their way eventually to Europe.The only native people of Europe appear to have been Neatherdals