Nowadays it seems to be very easy to have access via technology ( the web, fan forums,downloads of concerts, bootlegs etc etc) to the Stones world. Info travels at the speed of light and even faster than the Stones themselves. Do you think that this type of info-inflation "kills" the magic and the mythic suspence about the band, their music and what actually happens on , off or behind the stage? Is there such a case? People who are fans since let's say the 60's or 70's living in times when access wasn't that easy should have a lot to say about it.What's your opinion anyway? I would be glad to know your point of view!

it alarms me how the ultra-easy access to the music seems to cause some people to mistake the artists for a sack of potato chips - stuffing in as much as they can, grabbing for more more more, and then whining that their appetites are spoiled.

other people's appetites seem to be in fine shape, though, so the ease of access isn't in itself the problem. it's just more than some people can handle, i guess.


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

Well put and accurate. I agree with you.It's what you do with info and not the info itself. What's your opinion about the Stones themselves having a different kind of access to their fans via technology in this forum for example? They can also "explore" the "myth" of fans!

ahh the Stones ... jeez, i hope not, you know?
i always hope they have way better things to do than peer at us shuffling around in here like a bleedin flea circus. :E

but when you consider what the Rolling Stones have been dealing with from the public all these decades, without losing heart -
now that is cause to weep in radiant wonder at their spirit and generosity and courage.


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

Me want more access to Stones. Me want bootlegs, setlists, backstage passes and Ronnie's cell phone number so me can tell him the proper way to play guitar. Me am very greedy and hungry for Stones info. Gimme gimme gimme more more more!

For with sssoul: ..weep in radiant wonder..Now this is a graceful expression you chose here.You've got lots of sssoul!! You know I always consider them as my life companion through thick and thin. Although I sometimes get this 'tresspassing' feeling getting all this info about them. I feel like I should leave some things untouched somehow!

for me, definitely......the mystery is gone.....it kinda kills the "hunger & mystery"...all of the "over-exposure"....but, on the other hand, the access is mighty satisfying for fans who collect cd & dvd boots, etc....but i remember how it exiting it was when the Stones came into town...watching the news broadcasts for any little clip i could see of the Stones or picking up the latest issue of Creem or Rock World or Rolling Stone for the latest news....now, the "hunger" is satisfied instantly...so, some of the thrill is gone, but not all of it....the instant access is amazing!.........excellent topic!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-07 01:13 by Leonard Keringer.

Yeah, exactly! Instant satisfaction fits well to what I had in mind.Does it make us a little bit greedy? "...overspoiled with a thousand toys and still crying all night" as 19th Nervous Breakdown goes?

KYRIAKOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>...overspoiled with a thousand toys and
> still crying all night"


that's the perfect title for this topic

KYRIAKOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nowadays it seems to be very easy to have access
> via technology ( the web, fan forums,downloads of
> concerts, bootlegs etc etc) to the Stones world.
> Info travels at the speed of light and even faster
> than the Stones themselves. Do you think that this
> type of info-inflation "kills" the magic and the
> mythic suspence about the band, their music and
> what actually happens on , off or behind the
> stage? Is there such a case? People who are fans
> since let's say the 60's or 70's living in times
> when access wasn't that easy should have a lot to
> say about it.What's your opinion anyway? I would
> be glad to know your point of view!


I think you've made a lot of very good points (as has sssoul, leonard and kyriakos) in this post, but its not just the Stones. It would be the same no matter what artist you're interested in - and you'd especially see the difference if its someone who has been around for a long time. Its just the nature of the time we're living in.

Its a bizarre state of affairs that its not so many years ago that you'd go to a concert and hope that some day in the months or maybe years ahead, someone may have actually recorded it, even in the shittiest quality. Nowadays people seem impatient if its not available for download within 48 hours and in pristine sound quality to boot! Getting so many new shows so quickly is actually hard to absorb adequately.

I think to be honest that corporatism in music and music television and everything surrounding it (especially the way its become in the last decade or so) has killed a lot of the magic surrounding music more so than the internet has.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2005-11-07 02:26 by Gazza.

Ñå ÊõñéÜêï, ¸ëëçíáò åßóáé; Áðü ðïý ñå ðáôñßäá;

Hahahaha...I just tried to ask Kyriakos "are you from Greece?"... In greek language!!...

Yes I am from Greece. And that means that in past times there was actually no available info at all regarding Stones activities.It was really a quest to get even close to some info about what is the band doing NOW! Anyway, 'corporatism' as Gazza has put it seems to give an interesting direction to this conversation..And what about the Stones,as I've already talked about in some previous post? What about their new kind of access to our world as fans? I remember this 'song to be played live' web-choice thing in 1997-98 world tour.But more than this I'm talking about them surfing in the net in all possible Stones-related sites. You know what I mean: What do the the fans think about us when they are at home chatting with each other?

KYRIAKOS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nowadays it seems to be very easy to have access
> via technology ( the web, fan forums,downloads of
> concerts, bootlegs etc etc) to the Stones world.
> Info travels at the speed of light and even faster
> than the Stones themselves. Do you think that this
> type of info-inflation "kills" the magic and the
> mythic suspence about the band, their music and
> what actually happens on , off or behind the
> stage? Is there such a case? People who are fans
> since let's say the 60's or 70's living in times
> when access wasn't that easy should have a lot to
> say about it.What's your opinion anyway? I would
> be glad to know your point of view!

You made some good points but it's not only the info-inflation that somehow "kills" the magic. Nowadays people realize there never actually WAS magic. There was always just a good rock'n'roll band. If you want your magic back it's somehow like you prefer to fantasize about a girl instead of actually getting in contact with her. But baby I want to get lost in your rock and roll an drift away...

Since there was no info-inflation those days there just had to be some "magic" filling up the lack of information. But it's the same kind of magic that surrounds Jesus or King Artus - could they ever become THAT King Artus or THAT Jesus nowadays? In fact it's very doubtful these two guys ever EXISTED! Now that we know better about the group we know about their ambitions, and they are not only musical ambitions. Let's face it, they never wanted to start the revolution.

So if you ask "who killed the magic" - it was not only technology itself. It's also the Stones using that technology, using newe business plans, giving interviewes for everyone etc. For example, albums used to have 10 tracks, playing time around 40 minutes - nowadays they have 12 or 16 tracks with a plying time of 60 minutes or more. Do you think they have become so much more creative?

And this is NOT the end. There will always be MORE information if you find a way to make people to PAY for that extra information. Trouble only is, there is a thing called over exposure. The whole thing is backfiring - at least that's what the common fan thinks - but I think the Stones never cared if their fans are diehard or else, they always just wanted to know the NUMBER of their fans so they could multiply them with dollars and pounds. If quality music will increase the number of buyers, that's ok. But if anything else does it's ok as well.

What do YOU think - is it the quality of music that sells or is it the marketing? Do you think the Stones would go for the thing that doesn't sell? Would you?

apo pou eiste, paidi?

Very very interesting point of view F.U.C. The Captain!Thank you for sharing your thoughts with everybody.As you put it, it seems to be a quantity vs quality question with money somewhere in between.Well someone would say that money's quality IS it's quantity.It's how you messure quality anyway.Now about the "magic" filling up the lack of info - and that is a very strong statement you've made here - that would lead us to the conclusion that info disenchants everything. But as you put it, was there any "magic" at the first place?? I guess that we do fantasize about getting in real contact with the girl which in turn influences everything in the real, possible relationship with her.I mean that getting to know things about the Stones was a proceedure with dimensions in time and space. To me it seems that everything is accelerated. No time to create moments IN time.I'm not talking about nostalgia here. It's more about condensed time in a sense. It fits in my hard disc and there're lots of empty space. You know like this verse from "It won't take long":'...All I've got is memories stuck in an old shoe box". About the Stones themselves? They're living in this world. They sing about it!!

For Whale: I live in Athens.Stones in my life since 1976.

This is one of the best threads I have seen here in ages. Great topic Kyriakos. And really interesting input from everyone, with kyriakos as moderator LOl
I have thought about this a lot, since it became too easy. The excitement of finding these foreign, mysterious bootlegs with the bizarre artwork is no more. Grew up in Italy and for a loooong time there were NO LIveshows. One time the entire population of the freaks in Rome trucked out to some government type building where they were showing the two short videos of "Till the Next Goodbye" and IORR with bubbles. It was a HUGE deal! Now today, like Gazza says, the buzz gets impatient if we don't have a dowmnload within 48 hours.
It's just a matter of keeping your cool I think...I don'
t even collect CDs from Lix and 05 anymore. Shows are too easy, too similar, too much.

Totally agree..Where has the fun of going to a Record Fair and hunting for that Boot gone?..It took me 2 years to pick up a 4 LP set of Wembley 82, now we whinge when the latest show isnt available for download in a few days!
I have to say the magic has gone..not from the band..but in excitement in following them..

F.U.C. the Captain wrote:

"...What do YOU think - is it the quality of music that sells or is it the marketing? Do you think the Stones would go for the thing that doesn't sell? Would you?"

It's funny that you've asked, because I've been thinking about music and marketing a lot lately too. As much as I hate to think it may be true, I think it's very largely the marketing.

Look at Elvis. I've always wondered what might have happened if the manager of say Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, or Little Richard had promoted one of them the way that "Colonel Tom" promoted Elvis. Imagine Chuck Berry working with Colonel Tom, and Elvis working with Chuck Berry's manager. Elvis might still come out on top, but I bet he wouldn't seem so far ahead of Chuck Berry today.

As much as people talk about the importance of marketing in music today, I think we still underestimate the way it shapes opinions.

And Elvis almost signed with Atlantic before RCA finally won him....just imagine his post Sun recordings if he'd have gone to Atlantic....oooww!!



ROCKMAN

I think the technology/information-flow certainly affects the "magic" somewhat. You go to see the Stones today and you already know 90% of the songs they're going to play, what the stage looks like, any new show features, etc. etc. And it's very likely that you've already heard a show from the current tour. But, there are plusses also. In particular, ticket-buying is much better today. Back in 75, 78, 81 (my early years) it was very hard to get concert tickets. I lived in a small town, and it was hard to be plugged-in to date announcements, and of course was almost impossible to get-to and stand-in lines. The Internet has also created a nice secondary market for tickets through sites/boards such as this one. Communicating with other fans has also greatly increased my knowledge of boots, books, films, etc.

Karl

Quoting roundhay:"The magic has gone..not from the band..but in excitement in following them.." It seems like getting to know all the tricks of the juggler. Being something like an 'insider'. Would this lead us to a contradiction? We are longing for the excitement and the surprises of the juggler's show and still want to have access to all his tricks and techniques at the same time: Audience & "band member" simultaneousely. Well that brings the on-stage-seats concept of this tour to mind.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> but when you consider what the Rolling Stones have
> been dealing with from the public all these
> decades, without losing heart -
> now that is cause to weep in radiant wonder at
> their spirit and generosity and courage.
>
> "Music, to me, is the joy, right?"
> - Keith
>
> -1982

VERY well said Ms with sssoul, couldn't agree more.

When I entered the Stockholm Cirkus in 2003 to see my first ever club-show my heart was pumping like never before in my 35+ years "stones-career". Yes, I knew more or less what they would play. But not how. Not how this excactly would be like. And, yes, I was in for a "magical" show.

The same happened in 2003 at concerts where my daughter and my girlfriend watched the Stones for the first time in their lives. I was just as excited as ages ago.

Easier access to information doesn't necessarily mean loss of magic for me. To watch the Stones live is still something extraordinary. And it's great that modern technology enables us to get easier access to to tickets etc.

I go to this forum almost every day for several years Why ? Because I want information. Because this place ( and others out there ) is constantly opening up for new thoughts, old memories, and essential news. OK, lots of it is the same topics and the same questions over and over again. But new people tune in, so that's ok. That in itself somehow proves that there's a bit of "suspence" surrounding the band. Along the way come new fora like the "Nordic Stones Vikings" Being from Scandinavia I was really excited to see that web-site being launched and growing....

Easier access has however meant that the recent ( since Flashpoint ) Stones live-albums haven't had such an impact on me. I have actually come to the conclusion that most live-albums by any artist are not what the boots can give us.

I don't know about the above remarks regarding marketing. These days the bang must be bigger. Having been a fan for so many years you learn how to select what's essential and what's not. I'm just pleased that so many younger fans seem to come along all the time. My own daughter being an excellent example. Now that in itself is quite "magical". I would really hate it if the Stones were just a "myth".

In general easier access to info has also meant opening doors for me personally to a lot of music that I wouldn't have had access to or knowledge of at all.

You were in for a "magical" show. Lines like that keep me alive!!

OK Kyriako! Now there are two Greeks here!! Me and you...

My name is Dennis.I live in Athens too (Patissia). Stones in my life since 1973.

Well Dennis. It seems that we are neighbours! I live in Patissia too! Near the schools of Grava. Easy and unexpected access to fans next door to you via... Norway!It's called the world wide web. Some kind of magic? E-mail me!

Absolutely a wonderful topic. I'm always interested in how the medium--or media--shapes the message.

Along these lines, I always wonder about Robert Johnson. I'm pretty sure that Brian and Keith and Mick were listening to Johnson either on 78s or on pirate compilations available even before Columbia gathered his sides for "King Of The Delta Blues Singers." Even if they had access to the official release, there were (as yet) no photographs of Johnson, nor any credible documentation of his death, nor of his burial. He was a shadow, a phantom. And all that remained were those records. Both haunted and utterly haunting.

Now, as amazing as those recordings remain today, it thrills me to think of three young Englishmen encountering that music innocent of any information about the man. How much more shocking was the experience in the absence of any prosiac biography? With no context whatsoever, Johnson was a pure ghost story. I'm glad that he appears on U.S. postage stamps (with the cigarette removed from the image-ugh), but the listening just can't ever be the same. The imaginative space around the recordings disappears--not entirely, but significantly.

Beyond that, Brian and Keith and Mick had access to Johnson--or Blind Lemon Jefferson or Charley Patton or even to more recent artists like Muddy Waters--only as part of a tiny community of fellow listeners. Those guys would have to, as Mick Jagger famously did, write away to the South Side of Chicago for a Howlin' Wolf record. And those were the ones that were easy to obtain. More likely, they would have to be invited for an audience with Alexis Koerner, where they would be permitted to sit together and listen to Leadbelly or Son House.

It was a Secret Society. And those records were a shared language carried on vinyl tablets and transported physically--in freighters(!)--from a foreign land that one could see only occasionally and only at the cinema. Given the media saturation that has evolved, it may be impossible to imagine how exotic the United States itself must have seemed to the young Stones. Meanwhile, those guys had to choose and even to plan and work and travel to have access to the music they loved. And when they did, it was an event that formed and sealed both friendships and rivalries.

That process, of being with one's friends and passing around music as a shared sacrement, is so important. Maybe as important as the notes and the words themselves. It's what we tend to lose as our lives become organized around the workplace and families and the business of adulthood. In large measure, it's why nothing we hear in adulthood as private experience will ever sound as thrilling as the things that we heard collectively--with the gang--back in the day. (Reaffirming that collectivity is possibly the best reason to shell out the big bucks to stand in the crowd for the Stones At The Stadium.)

My own encounter with this stuff began at a time when FM radio, "Rolling Stone" magazine and the work of Bill German's "Beggar's Banquet" newsletter were the only ways to stay abreast of the Stones. Those outlets plus the lunatic burnout at the local record store who would mangle any rumor that came his way from other Stones freaks. There's something to be said for entertaining misinformation, after all...Best served with a special Mars Bar.

There was, even at that point, a mystery and a mystique about the Stones and about Rock'n'Roll that is probably gone forever. A sense of underground pleasure that could be had even when following the biggest band in the world. The bright, shiny electronically driven culture tends to wash out a whole lotta the grit and shadows from the thing.

But even as IORR and RS.COM and rollingstone.com and CNN and so many others conspire to give us perhaps too much information and to shed too much light on our idols, they also create new opportunities:

IORR (for instance) gives us all a chance to hang out in a "space" that is the closest available to Alexis Koerner's flat. Even as adults, with lives that encompass other activities and concerns, we can gather to reconfirm and reinforce our appreciation of "Hide Your Love" or of "Brussels Affair." Or to stake a case for the merits of "Moon Is Up." Or "Bridges To Babylon." Or to parse setlist statistics. Or to offer travel advice for crazed Europeans looking for a way to get around lovely...umm...Hartford.

Having access to viewpoints expressed on this board makes me see the Stones in fresh ways. And that enhances my excitement and my listening experience. Many thanks to you all...

Rev. Robert W. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Absolutely a wonderful topic. I'm always
> interested in how the medium--or media--shapes the
> message.
>
> Along these lines, I always wonder about Robert
> Johnson. I'm pretty sure that Brian and Keith and
> Mick were listening to Johnson either on 78s or on
> pirate compilations available even before Columbia
> gathered his sides for "King Of The Delta Blues
> Singers." Even if they had access to the official
> release, there were (as yet) no photographs of
> Johnson, nor any credible documentation of his
> death, nor of his burial. He was a shadow, a
> phantom. And all that remained were those records.
> Both haunted and utterly haunting.
>
> Now, as amazing as those recordings remain today,
> it thrills me to think of three young Englishmen
> encountering that music innocent of any
> information about the man. How much more shocking
> was the experience in the absence of any prosiac
> biography? With no context whatsoever, Johnson was
> a pure ghost story. I'm glad that he appears on
> U.S. postage stamps (with the cigarette removed
> from the image-ugh), but the listening just can't
> ever be the same. The imaginative space around the
> recordings disappears--not entirely, but
> significantly.
>
> Beyond that, Brian and Keith and Mick had access
> to Johnson--or Blind Lemon Jefferson or Charley
> Patton or even to more recent artists like Muddy
> Waters--only as part of a tiny community of fellow
> listeners. Those guys would have to, as Mick
> Jagger famously did, write away to the South Side
> of Chicago for a Howlin' Wolf record. And those
> were the ones that were easy to obtain. More
> likely, they would have to be invited for an
> audience with Alexis Koerner, where they would be
> permitted to sit together and listen to Leadbelly
> or Son House.
>
> It was a Secret Society. And those records were a
> shared language carried on vinyl tablets and
> transported physically--in freighters(!)--from a
> foreign land that one could see only occasionally
> and only at the cinema. Given the media saturation
> that has evolved, it may be impossible to imagine
> how exotic the United States itself must have
> seemed to the young Stones. Meanwhile, those guys
> had to choose and even to plan and work and travel
> to have access to the music they loved. And when
> they did, it was an event that formed and sealed
> both friendships and rivalries.
>
> That process, of being with one's friends and
> passing around music as a shared sacrement, is so
> important. Maybe as important as the notes and the
> words themselves. It's what we tend to lose as our
> lives become organized around the workplace and
> families and the business of adulthood. In large
> measure, it's why nothing we hear in adulthood as
> private experience will ever sound as thrilling as
> the things that we heard collectively--with the
> gang--back in the day. (Reaffirming that
> collectivity is possibly the best reason to shell
> out the big bucks to stand in the crowd for the
> Stones At The Stadium.)
>
> My own encounter with this stuff began at a time
> when FM radio, "Rolling Stone" magazine and the
> work of Bill German's "Beggar's Banquet"
> newsletter were the only ways to stay abreast of
> the Stones. Those outlets plus the lunatic burnout
> at the local record store who would mangle any
> rumor that came his way from other Stones freaks.
> There's something to be said for entertaining
> misinformation, after all...Best served with a
> special Mars Bar.
>
> There was, even at that point, a mystery and a
> mystique about the Stones and about Rock'n'Roll
> that is probably gone forever. A sense of
> underground pleasure that could be had even when
> following the biggest band in the world. The
> bright, shiny electronically driven culture tends
> to wash out a whole lotta the grit and shadows
> from the thing.
>
> But even as IORR and RS.COM and rollingstone.com
> and CNN and so many others conspire to give us
> perhaps too much information and to shed too much
> light on our idols, they also create new
> opportunities:
>
> IORR (for instance) gives us all a chance to hang
> out in a "space" that is the closest available to
> Alexis Koerner's flat. Even as adults, with lives
> that encompass other activities and concerns, we
> can gather to reconfirm and reinforce our
> appreciation of "Hide Your Love" or of "Brussels
> Affair." Or to stake a case for the merits of
> "Moon Is Up." Or "Bridges To Babylon." Or to parse
> setlist statistics. Or to offer travel advice for
> crazed Europeans looking for a way to get around
> lovely...umm...Hartford.
>
> Having access to viewpoints expressed on this
> board makes me see the Stones in fresh ways. And
> that enhances my excitement and my listening
> experience. Many thanks to you all...
>
>
>
> Rev.Robert W.....what a greatly insightful post!