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NilsHolgersson
Well there's One More Shot
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Here are Spotify stats for the songs you mentioned:
"Shot In The Dark" ": 35 million streams
"Ghosts": 7 million streams
"Living In A Ghost Town": 35 million streams
Looking at those numbers all one can say is that (a) none of them are any real hits by the criterion of topping any major charts (except some special/artificial 'rock chart', like the one Dylan topped last year with "Murder Most Foul", etc.); their chart history tells that too; (b) AC/DC and Stones tunes are clearly more popular than Bruce's song.
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
Big AlQuote
DandelionPowderman
Well put, Doxa.
And by the old "hit-criteria", Harlem Shuffle was their last big hit, not Start Me Up
Well, Start Me Up was their last global hit, surely? They've had numerous top-ten placing's in select nations, including the U.S., where I suspect their last 'hit' was Mixed Emotions.
I don't think Mixed Emotions made it to number 5 on the Billboard Hot 100, topped the charts in New Zealand and got several second, third and fourth positions (Finland, Euopean single charts, Belgium) + several other top 10 positions (Canada, Netherlands, Norway, Australia, Spain, Ireland).
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Hairball
Imagine if Mixed Emotions had more of an emphasis on a signature riff similar to Start Me Up, it might have been a contender?
As an experiment, in your head try inserting the riff and the SMU beat in to Mixed Emotions ...
'da da da!... Button Your lip, baby....da da da, da da da, da da da....
Button your coat...da da da!...Let's go out dancing...da da da, da da da, da da da"
Seems a bit of a stretch to imagine, but it actually works better...
As it stands, it's a bit mechanical...might have to do with the overall beat and steady drumming that makes the tune a bit monotonous (no offense to Charlie)...
sounds like he's playing to closely along with a metronome...and the backup vocals are a bit too much...actually way too much imo...and the overall sterile sound...
Never did like that tune much studio or live, but with a bit of imagination it actually sounds OK.
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treaclefingersQuote
Hairball
Imagine if Mixed Emotions had more of an emphasis on a signature riff similar to Start Me Up, it might have been a contender?
As an experiment, in your head try inserting the riff and the SMU beat in to Mixed Emotions ...
'da da da!... Button Your lip, baby....da da da, da da da, da da da....
Button your coat...da da da!...Let's go out dancing...da da da, da da da, da da da"
Seems a bit of a stretch to imagine, but it actually works better...
As it stands, it's a bit mechanical...might have to do with the overall beat and steady drumming that makes the tune a bit monotonous (no offense to Charlie)...
sounds like he's playing to closely along with a metronome...and the backup vocals are a bit too much...actually way too much imo...and the overall sterile sound...
Never did like that tune much studio or live, but with a bit of imagination it actually sounds OK.
I have to agree with you. Much as I liked Mixed Emotions when it came out, it was a bit 'neutered', safe, though still a decent enough song, could have been better.
A precursor to Don't Stop which is just 'stones lite'.
The beginning of the Vegas era seemed to create two things. A bad creatively challenged (though not completely bereft as there have been some excellent moments) but an absolute machine on the road.
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treaclefingersQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Big AlQuote
DandelionPowderman
Well put, Doxa.
And by the old "hit-criteria", Harlem Shuffle was their last big hit, not Start Me Up
Well, Start Me Up was their last global hit, surely? They've had numerous top-ten placing's in select nations, including the U.S., where I suspect their last 'hit' was Mixed Emotions.
I don't think Mixed Emotions made it to number 5 on the Billboard Hot 100, topped the charts in New Zealand and got several second, third and fourth positions (Finland, Euopean single charts, Belgium) + several other top 10 positions (Canada, Netherlands, Norway, Australia, Spain, Ireland).
Actually, it did make it to number 5 on Billboard Hot 100, Number 1 in Canada, and after which a mixed bag of success around the rest of the world:
[en.wikipedia.org])
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treaclefingersQuote
Stoneage
To me it's a bit strange that the Stones have never been able to, sort of, clone SMU into another hit or semi-hit. Although one may argue that "Don't Stop" is close to that.
It (Don't Stop) never really took off though.
Don't Stop is an amazing example of trying to use the formula when creating. Generic, boring, formulaic (by design), completely uninspiring and uninteresting. Glad they generally haven't used this approach, though I agree would love to see an archetypal SMU-type song again, but only if it comes organically.
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DandelionPowderman
I think one of the reasons they made many successful singles was to avoid that formula. There are some exceptions, of course, like HTW, BS and SMU.
Satisfaction gets a pass, since the relying on big riffs hadn't really become their signature style yet by then.
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NilsHolgersson
Well there's One More Shot
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DandelionPowderman
Not all reviewers were convinced about their new sound...
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DoxaQuote
treaclefingersQuote
Stoneage
To me it's a bit strange that the Stones have never been able to, sort of, clone SMU into another hit or semi-hit. Although one may argue that "Don't Stop" is close to that.
It (Don't Stop) never really took off though.
Don't Stop is an amazing example of trying to use the formula when creating. Generic, boring, formulaic (by design), completely uninspiring and uninteresting. Glad they generally haven't used this approach, though I agree would love to see an archetypal SMU-type song again, but only if it comes organically.
Yeah, if it is true that "Don't Stop" is a left-over from GODDESS IN A DOORWAY sessions, I am afraid that it exactly is that kind of song Mick has in mind when he talks about "hmm, I leave that to the Stones" meaning that it sounds like 'Stones-by-numbers' or something - having that certain formula of how they songs should sound like. That possibly is not the best way to be creative. I think that the secret of the Stones have been that they truely are pretty artistic-minded people in the first place - their stuff, be it good or bad, comes out of inspiration. The muse needs to be there, otherwise, forget it. That's why I think they very rarely manage to make very inspired versions of their old hit receipts - they pretty much nailed their style and sound, 'formula' if you like, in Big Four when they were in the height of their creativity and energy. There is not much to add what is stated there. Been there, done that, an artist says and goes on to do something else. If you don't, you end up sounding like a lame, uninspired copy of yourself.
Another thing to notice is that the idea of certain 'genre' The Stones supposed to represent is a myth in itself. They are pretty organic and ecletic band by nature. I mean, just listening the Big Four - there is so much different stuff there - the 'blues-based' can mean almost anything. Also, if you look at ten pieces they are nowadays most known for (top ten on Spotify):
1. Paint It Black
2. Satisfaction
3. Gimme Shelter
4. Sympathy For The Devil
5. Start Me Up
6. Beast of Burden
7. Angie
8. Brown Sugar
9. Wild Horses
10. You Can't Always Get What You Want
What exactly is the formula or genre or signature sound there? I mean, if they suddenly decide that 'hey, let's do another "Paint It Black", "Sympathy For The devil" or "Gimme Shelter"', what could that even mean in practise? All of those are pretty unique-sounding pieces pretty hard to 'copy'.
Unlike the 70's rock bands, like AC/DC, Aerosmith, etc. there never was any rock band to define what a rock band is and supposed to sound like - and use as a basic model against which to create own unique sounding version of it. I mean, for the Stones there were no The Stones, The Who, Zeppelin - No, the Stones took their musical inspiration from folks like Muddy Waters; Jimmy Reed and Chuck Berry, the idea of making own songs from The Beatles, and then, like any other 60's band were experimenting and doing something no one else have done before. The whole musical ethos of the 60's and what rock supposed to mean was pretty different that it started to be like during the 70's when the 'genre' and 'formula' and 'signature style' started to define rock music. The mature Stones sound - something that the Big Four, with the big singles, as a collective represents - was a result of many things (like the learned experience from doing many other things before 'returning to blues roots', Mick and Keith's development as song-writers, Keith's experiments with open tunings, a new guitarist) but basically just a one phase in their career. I don't think they were thinking at the time that 'yes, that's how we should like to sound like the rest of our career'. However, as it turned out to be, they've been struggling with that phase ever since - doing something else or to develop to different directions has been hard for them. Probably only in SOME GIRLS they managed to sound different/reinvent themselves convincingly.
Those today listening to EXILE and thinking 'wow, that's a definition of how a rock band should sound' - I guess the Stones might reply something like 'oh dear, you don't know how much it took to get there, and even we don't know how we did it... There was no model, no any bloody receipt'. There is no way to that kind of organic music can be created by a formula. Probably that can work as an inspiration for some other people, like the Stones were inspired by listening Muddy Waters from a distance, but if you are looking it inside - from the creator's perspective - it's a whole different ball game.
I mean if you try, you end up sounding like VOODOO LOUNGE...
- Doxa
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Rockman
.... eat more sardines Bard .....
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StoneageQuote
Rockman
.... eat more sardines Bard .....
All Norwegians eat one spoon of this everyday. And in this nation of fishermen their favorite dish is...pizza.
One pizza is about $100 there. Which they can afford since they are all oil millionaires. Everyone of them...
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NilsHolgersson
Well there's One More Shot
There's been several almost, could have been, maybe, not quite hit type songs that were truly almost, could have been, maybe, but not quite hit songs from the last few decades, and none were ever able to match the familiarity and anthemic quality of Start Me Up. Personally, I grew a bit tired of the studio version Start Me Up a few months after it was released after the massive exposure on the radio, yet there's no denying the signature riff, the great Jagger lyrics and vocals, and the all-around Stonesy vibe - a live Stones show in a massive stadium or arena wouldn't quite feel the same without it in the latter era. I love Harlem Shuffle, yet it's a cover and they never played it enough live to give it the warhorse status. I'm not a fan of You Got Me Rocking, yet they play it quite often - almost forcing the issue that it's a "great" tune, but even with that type of live presence, the song is basically unknown as far as radio play and the general masses. There's other examples of almost, could have been, maybe, not quite hit type songs that just haven't left the same impression as the indelible Start Me Up, and in many cases thankfully so - imagine if the wimpish Don't Stop had become a warhorse and was played at every show? It's basically a mediocre tune, and for many it would have been a perfect time to sneak off to the restrooms or the bar for a drink. Still though, whenever they did play some of those new songs while they were still new such as Don't Stop during Licks or even Doom and Gloom and One More Shot during 50 and Counting, it was a breath of fresh air...maybe not the most pleasant fresh air, but at least something contemporary. Would have loved to hear more of the blues covers live from Blue and Lonesome as those tunes were far better when played live, but again they were simply covers that could never reach the status of Start Me Up simply because they're covers. Rambling on here, but guess this is what the future will be when the Stones are a thing of the past...the would have, should have, could have, almost, maybe, not quite type of speculation that will continue on and on for years to come. Maybe they'll have one more gigantic hit, and will play it at every show during the 60th anniversary tour, and one way or another it will end up there in the pantheon of other Stones greats...right alongside Satisfaction, Start Me Up, Sympathy, Gimme Shelter...wishful thinking maybe, but ya never know........
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GasLightStreetQuote
HairballQuote
NilsHolgersson
Well there's One More Shot
There's been several almost, could have been, maybe, not quite hit type songs that were truly almost, could have been, maybe, but not quite hit songs from the last few decades, and none were ever able to match the familiarity and anthemic quality of Start Me Up. Personally, I grew a bit tired of the studio version Start Me Up a few months after it was released after the massive exposure on the radio, yet there's no denying the signature riff, the great Jagger lyrics and vocals, and the all-around Stonesy vibe - a live Stones show in a massive stadium or arena wouldn't quite feel the same without it in the latter era. I love Harlem Shuffle, yet it's a cover and they never played it enough live to give it the warhorse status. I'm not a fan of You Got Me Rocking, yet they play it quite often - almost forcing the issue that it's a "great" tune, but even with that type of live presence, the song is basically unknown as far as radio play and the general masses. There's other examples of almost, could have been, maybe, not quite hit type songs that just haven't left the same impression as the indelible Start Me Up, and in many cases thankfully so - imagine if the wimpish Don't Stop had become a warhorse and was played at every show? It's basically a mediocre tune, and for many it would have been a perfect time to sneak off to the restrooms or the bar for a drink. Still though, whenever they did play some of those new songs while they were still new such as Don't Stop during Licks or even Doom and Gloom and One More Shot during 50 and Counting, it was a breath of fresh air...maybe not the most pleasant fresh air, but at least something contemporary. Would have loved to hear more of the blues covers live from Blue and Lonesome as those tunes were far better when played live, but again they were simply covers that could never reach the status of Start Me Up simply because they're covers. Rambling on here, but guess this is what the future will be when the Stones are a thing of the past...the would have, should have, could have, almost, maybe, not quite type of speculation that will continue on and on for years to come. Maybe they'll have one more gigantic hit, and will play it at every show during the 60th anniversary tour, and one way or another it will end up there in the pantheon of other Stones greats...right alongside Satisfaction, Start Me Up, Sympathy, Gimme Shelter...wishful thinking maybe, but ya never know........
The Stones (Mick) have had odd taste over the years regarding a single. The first single. The trailer. That hasn't quite changed back to 2016 with BLUE AND LONESOME.
Aside from whoever here bitching and complaining about 'it's not Start Me Up', well, as any musician would tell you, go listen to it then. There's a pretty good reason nothing beyond 1981 gets played much. Is it their fault they've extended their legacy? It doesn't matter. No matter what, Mick knows that nothing past 1981 wants to be heard in general.
What a problem to have.
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treaclefingers
Lead singles since Start Me Up:
1982: Goin' to a Go-Go
1983: Undercover of the Night
1986: Harlem Shuffle
1989: Mixed Emotions
1994: Love is Strong
1997: Anybody Seen My Baby
2002: Don't Stop
2006: Streets of Love/Rough Justice
2012: Doom and Gloom/One More Shot
2016: Just Your Fool
2020: Living in a Ghost Town (included but not actually a lead single)
That's a pretty weak lineup. I think Undercover of the Night knocks it out of the park but maybe not the 'anthemic' quality you like to see to help sell an album. After that...I mean maybe Doom and Gloom, but come on. That's the last 40 years. Also interesting side note, 30% of their lead singles are covers.
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DandelionPowderman
Maybe Highwire / Sex Drive (1991) also qualify as lead singles?
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treaclefingers
Lead singles since Start Me Up:
1982: Goin' to a Go-Go
1983: Undercover of the Night
1986: Harlem Shuffle
1989: Mixed Emotions
1994: Love is Strong
1997: Anybody Seen My Baby
2002: Don't Stop
2006: Streets of Love/Rough Justice
2012: Doom and Gloom/One More Shot
2016: Just Your Fool
2020: Living in a Ghost Town (included but not actually a lead single)
That's a pretty weak lineup. I think Undercover of the Night knocks it out of the park but maybe not the 'anthemic' quality you like to see to help sell an album. After that...I mean maybe Doom and Gloom, but come on. That's the last 40 years. Also interesting side note, 30% of their lead singles are covers.
Yes weak, and aside from Undercover, and maybe Love is Strong, the best lead singles are covers imo. Ghost Town would have ranked right up there with Undercover if it was an actual lead single.
And don't forget that the weak *Anybody Seen My Baby owed alot to KD Lange which she received credit for (along w/another co-writer), so not sure if that can be considered completely original.
Still hard to fathom how Streets of Love was a lead single, or even a Rolling Stones song at all; nothing about it except Micks vocals says Rolling Stones - not the studio version, nor any live version.
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treaclefingersQuote
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treaclefingers
Lead singles since Start Me Up:
1982: Goin' to a Go-Go
1983: Undercover of the Night
1986: Harlem Shuffle
1989: Mixed Emotions
1994: Love is Strong
1997: Anybody Seen My Baby
2002: Don't Stop
2006: Streets of Love/Rough Justice
2012: Doom and Gloom/One More Shot
2016: Just Your Fool
2020: Living in a Ghost Town (included but not actually a lead single)
That's a pretty weak lineup. I think Undercover of the Night knocks it out of the park but maybe not the 'anthemic' quality you like to see to help sell an album. After that...I mean maybe Doom and Gloom, but come on. That's the last 40 years. Also interesting side note, 30% of their lead singles are covers.
Yes weak, and aside from Undercover, and maybe Love is Strong, the best lead singles are covers imo. Ghost Town would have ranked right up there with Undercover if it was an actual lead single.
And don't forget that the weak *Anybody Seen My Baby owed alot to KD Lange which she received credit for (along w/another co-writer), so not sure if that can be considered completely original.
Still hard to fathom how Streets of Love was a lead single, or even a Rolling Stones song at all; nothing about it except Micks vocals says Rolling Stones - not the studio version, nor any live version.
OK...and so here's taking it one step further, what were the alternative choices for lead single? I've left off the live albums/greatest hits.
1983: Undercover of the Night - hard because this is a great song, and probably best cut on the album but clearly not a strong lead single. She Was Hot or Too Tough maybe?
1986: Harlem Shuffle .... One Hit to the Body (easy choice)
1989: Mixed Emotions .... Rock and a Hard Place
1994: Love is Strong ... as is?
1997: Anybody Seen My Baby ... Saint of Me
2006: Streets of Love/Rough Justice ... She Saw Me Coming
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DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
I think one of the reasons they made many successful singles was to avoid that formula. There are some exceptions, of course, like HTW, BS and SMU.
I think "Honky Tonk Women" and "Brown Sugar" are the singles that most shaped the understanding of a certain Stones signature sound. Those are the songs Keith intruduced his Open G tuning worldwide audience, and in any Stones song ever since where Open G is used there is a reminscant of those two songs - and when people want to 'sound like Keith' - those two songs are the ones we can hear the original idea of hitting chords/riffs in an open G tuning with a dramatic timing and tempo that gives enough room for silence. In "Start Me Up" - years later - Keith himself made almost 'Stones Sound For Dummies' version of it (like the whole bloody song is in its pure, archaic genius). And ironically that not only welcomed the Stones sounding like the Stones for a long time, it cemented the signature. That's the Stones. Even "Honky Tonk Women" or "Brown Sugar" sound that pure Stones-y as it does...
- Doxa