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GasLightStreet

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Hairball
And then there's the Ernie Cefalu story - not so sure about the details surrounding that controversy, but I do recall that evidently he claims the tongue was fully and solely his creation.

That's been established as 100% bullshit.

I agree, and don't recall exactly why roller99 was adamant it was Cefalu 's original design, but clearly he was misinformed.
The controversy is probably buried somewhere in the lengthy thread I posted a link to several posts above.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Rockman


........... barcode tongue

Nice!

A QR Code tongue would be a splendid way to check in to that eventual Rolling Stones Concert that we'll all be going to!

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Hi Hairball,

If Aldridge's book would not have existed, for sure the "USA version" of the Stones logo would have looked differently. But your assumption that Pasche would have seen the Day Tripper image, is not more than an assumption. When I started to "investigate" many years ago (via Chess) I also collected very many tongue/lips images that existed well before Aldridge's book, even from before he could even have developed his creative activities to the full. MisterDDDD just showed some!

I couldn't inspire myself to make a collage of around 400 images yet, probably never will. For sure, if Braun and Chess hadn't come up with their USA version, Ernie's contribution to the Braun collection would also never have surfaced.
MisterDDDD "asked" for a link concerning Braun's statements. New York Times ...
Braun admitted to me (after extensive mail corresponce with him and others) well before the NYT article, that his earlier assumption of Pasche knowing about Aldridge was not appropriate and hasty, purely based on he himself knowing about the book (also assumption).

But, to put some "oil on the fire" , for me there still is this small puzzle to be solved (too bad Aldridge is no longer among us), namely the story behind Aldridge's "Tiger creation" for the RS Rock 'n Roll Circus project ... there are some around who know more about that.
There is this beautiful magical link between the Beatles and the Stones, some of it still hidden behind secrecy. But the hype that the Stones were just copying the Beatles has long been solved ... "Give Me Your Hand and I Hold it Tight" .... "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" ... "Something Happened To Me Yesterday" ... Pear Records .. ) ...


I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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georgie48

If Aldridge's book would not have existed, for sure the "USA version" of the Stones logo would have looked differently. But your assumption that Pasche would have seen the Day Tripper image, is not more than an assumption. When I started to "investigate" many years ago (via Chess) I also collected very many tongue/lips images that existed well before Aldridge's book, even from before he could even have developed his creative activities to the full. MisterDDDD just showed some!

I couldn't inspire myself to make a collage of around 400 images yet, probably never will. For sure, if Braun and Chess hadn't come up with their USA version, Ernie's contribution to the Braun collection would also never have surfaced.
MisterDDDD "asked" for a link concerning Braun's statements. New York Times ...
Braun admitted to me (after extensive mail corresponce with him and others) well before the NYT article, that his earlier assumption of Pasche knowing about Aldridge was not appropriate and hasty, purely based on he himself knowing about the book (also assumption).

Sounds like very extensive research you did, thanks for the info and the sources.

Interesting that some of the lips and tongues I quickly snagged off the internet matched some you gathered that existed pre-Aldridge book. Your concept of a collage of hundreds of them isn't surprising at all. A lot of very similar styles of drawing in the period.

Looks like case closed on the conspiracy theory, at least as far as the Pasche tongue is concerned.

As so much becomes Beatles vs Stones to some, I'm surprised the lads never really designed a logo that didn't just include their name with the T dropped or whatever. Mick was undeniably waaay ahead of the curve on that concept. In later decades huge brands like Coke, Pepsi, Starbucks, Microsoft, etc. recognized the power of branding that utilized a design that didn't incorporate their brand name.
Brilliant.

Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.

Apparently that was only for the disc jacket of the UK edition of the LP.

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GasLightStreet
Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.

Apparently that was only for the disc jacket of the UK edition of the LP.

When I bought Sticky Fingers (while in Liverpool) in April 1971, I was curious why the inlay logo (Pasche) was different from the one on the back sleeve of the album.
Well, the album sleeve was designed by Braun's company in the USA (and obviously had the "USA logo"), while the inlay was made in Europe and added there to the album. It "took" me 40+ years to figure out

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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georgie48

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GasLightStreet
Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.

Apparently that was only for the disc jacket of the UK edition of the LP.

When I bought Sticky Fingers (while in Liverpool) in April 1971, I was curious why the inlay logo (Pasche) was different from the one on the back sleeve of the album.
Well, the album sleeve was designed by Braun's company in the USA (and obviously had the "USA logo"), while the inlay was made in Europe and added there to the album. It "took" me 40+ years to figure out

That's weird, innit. They go by the UK releases for their discography. The logo was changed for the US. They treated it as whatever. Yet some of the singles had different edits, like Miss You and as recently, Plundered My Soul, regarding the UK/rest of the world singles.

Look at the Virgin reissues - at least on CD: they're not all accurate regarding the logo, like with EMOTIONAL RESCUE, but at that point it probably didn't matter. I'm guessing the UMe reissues are the same.

The Bob Ludwig vinyl remasters for Virgin were crap, as proclaimed by him.

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georgie48
Hi Hairball,

If Aldridge's book would not have existed, for sure the "USA version" of the Stones logo would have looked differently. But your assumption that Pasche would have seen the Day Tripper image, is not more than an assumption.

Hello georgie.

Yes an assumption, and I'm certainly not alone with that assumption based on the visual evidence. There may have been dozens, hundreds, thousands, and millions upon millions of various tongues and mouths prior throughout history, but no two are really quite as similar as the Aldridge/Stones tongues - in fact they're practically identical (see overlapped/comparison image posted by Irix previous page). Again, given the context of the time with the massive popularity of the Beatles, seems practically everyone in the world may have seen the Aldridge tongue. But to be fair, looking at all the other random images of mouths and tongues, seems the Stones tongue itself is not original at all - it's simply a reworking of many other renditions. It's not a sin to borrow ideas in the world of art, and seems clear to me and many others this is the case here. After all, the Stones entire career was based on borrowing and stealing ideas in regards to all of the various cover tunes they performed/recorded. In some cases they might have even "begged" (see I Wanna Be Your Man).

One last thing; in one of your previous posts in regards to the Stones tongue, you also said - "also credit to DiMiceli and Velez". Never heard of either, and I'm assuming you mean they also had a hand in the Stones tongue -
in other words no one person can be credited, so can you go a bit further into that scenario?

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Yup.

Odd. Errybody has a mouth that often comes equipped with lips and a tongue to boot.
Odder still.. lots of people like to draw them

Following up in the same line of questions georgie, are you absolutely certain these mystery people you mention didn't somehow draw the tongue in question??
You know,, just so somehow, some way, some people can finally be correct in a conspiracy theory? Verry important to them.
Thanks in advance.

The V&A holds in its collections the original artwork for the Rolling Stones famous tongue and lips logo - one of the world's most instantly recognisable symbols of rock and roll.


(Left) Full colour digital proof for the Rolling Stones 'Tongue' logo by Jon Pasche, 1970. Museum no. S.6121-2009, © Victoria & Albert Museum, London. (Right) Art work for the Rolling Stones 'Tongue' logo by Jon Pasche, 1970. Museum no. S.6120-2009, © Victoria & Albert Museum, London

Mick Jagger, singer with the Rolling Stones, commissioned Jon Pasche, who was then a young student at the Royal College of Art in London, to produce the logo after seeing his designs at the Royal College of Art final degree show in 1970.

In this interview Jon Pasche shares the fascinating story behind the commission - how the logo was inspired by an image of a hindu goddess, being told by Mick Jagger that he could do better, and being paid just £50.
[www.vam.ac.uk]

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CaptainCorella

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Hairball

Given the massive popularity of the Beatles (even to this day), there's a high probability that even Pasche had seen the Aldridge version while browsing through the popular Beatles Songbook from '69.
They're too similar to think otherwise.

Whatever the case, thankful for the Beatles book and Aldridge, as without either the Stones design wouldn't come to exist as we know it.

Outstanding! Rarely have I agreed more emphatically with a posting.

Yes Captain, and many feel the same way regarding the origins of the supposed originality of the Stones tongue, or complete lack of originality I should say.

Comparison/overlapping evidence credited to Irix, and even with this some people remain closed minded and in complete denial of the possibilities as if there's absolutely no other way than their way:



_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Hairball

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CaptainCorella

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Hairball

Given the massive popularity of the Beatles (even to this day), there's a high probability that even Pasche had seen the Aldridge version while browsing through the popular Beatles Songbook from '69.
They're too similar to think otherwise.

Whatever the case, thankful for the Beatles book and Aldridge, as without either the Stones design wouldn't come to exist as we know it.

Outstanding! Rarely have I agreed more emphatically with a posting.

Yes Captain, and many feel the same way regarding the origins of the supposed originality of the Stones tongue, or complete lack of originality I should say.

Comparison/overlapping evidence credited to Irix, and even with this some people remain closed minded and in complete denial of the possibilities as if there's absolutely no other way than their way:

Hi Hairball, I provided the b/w image to Irix, which I obtained from Braun personally many years ago. And as I mentioned earlier, It was Braun (and his team) who was inspired by Aldridge's DT image. So yes, Irix' work in fact proves, what Braun had said. However, If you superimpose the original Pasche image onto the DT image, well ... even if you superimpose Pasche's original version onto the "USA" version, you really need to do some serious remodelling. Just already only the one white line on the Pasche's version. Pasche didn't call Braun to say "he man, I realized I forgot one white line. Could you please add the second one to your model, please?" If even today you would make a flashy photograph of a pretty girl with shiny red colored full lips sticking her juicy tongue out, you would see "eyes" and "lines", like on Aldridge's image.
NOBODY in the U.K., not even any of the Stones, knew about what Braun was creating in his USA based company at the time in 1970. Braun was even afraid during his work that he could be sued and kept it all very low profile. But yes, he and not Pasche was inspired by Aldridge's image. Question to you: by whom was Aldridge inspired? Marilyn Monroe or Brigitte Bardot?

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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georgie48


Hi Hairball, I provided the b/w image to Irix, which I obtained from Braun personally many years ago. And as I mentioned earlier, It was Braun (and his team) who was inspired by Aldridge's DT image. So yes, Irix' work in fact proves, what Braun had said. However, If you superimpose the original Pasche image onto the DT image, well ... even if you superimpose Pasche's original version onto the "USA" version, you really need to do some serious remodelling. Just already only the one white line on the Pasche's version. Pasche didn't call Braun to say "he man, I realized I forgot one white line. Could you please add the second one to your model, please?" If even today you would make a flashy photograph of a pretty girl with shiny red colored full lips sticking her juicy tongue out, you would see "eyes" and "lines", like on Aldridge's image.
NOBODY in the U.K., not even any of the Stones, knew about what Braun was creating in his USA based company at the time in 1970. Braun was even afraid during his work that he could be sued and kept it all very low profile. But yes, he and not Pasche was inspired by Aldridge's image. Question to you: by whom was Aldridge inspired? Marilyn Monroe or Brigitte Bardot?

Along with the embellished Braun version, the similarities between the original Pasche image and the Aldridge design also seem clear to me. And while there may have been a very slight difference (a line on tongue for example), generally the overall similarities of the shape, the highlights, the bottom lip, the direction of the tongue itself, etc. all add up to it not being simply a mere coincidence. After all, Pasche was a young art student, and young artists always get inspired from somewhere which in this case seems to be the Aldridge version - no other tongue comes close, and the similarities are too obvious to ignore.

As for who or what may have inspired Aldridges tongue design, pure speculation, but even he could have lifted his ideas from somewhere else - maybe a previous artwork from an artist that remains unknown.
After all, nothing is new under the sun, and every artist borrows from the past one way or another, but in cases like the young student Pasche, the original source that he borrowed from seems quite obvious imo.

Will try and leave it at that, and on a side note, you didn't give the details regarding the contributions/embellishments involving DiMiceli and Velez yet - is there something more you can add?

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-28 22:51 by Hairball.

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Hairball

Along with the embellished Braun version, the similarities between the original Pasche image and the Aldridge design also seem clear to me.

I'll focus on the Aldridge-to-Pasche part of this discussion.

Pasche is a year older than me. I do not know where he was born, but we all know that he lived in Brighton (UK) in the mid-1960s. I lived in Brighton (UK) at the same time.

My point here is that 'culturally' we have a very similar background.

It is very hard indeed to sufficiently stress the upheaval represented in UK life by the emergence of The Beatles (and later the Stones). Their every movement was covered and discussed endlessly.

I vividly recall a Saturday in early June 1967, walking down a street and hearing Sgt. Pepper coming out of almost every house window as almost everyone was listening to BBC Radio One's Kenny Everett playing it for the very first time. THAT's the sort of thing that happened.

John Pasche was an art student at (then) Brighton College of Art (now part of Brighton University). A few years later my partner was a student at the same College, and through her I met many fellow students and later staff, including someone who went off to be a Head of School at the Royal College of Art. (Aside: Next time I talk to that latter I'll ask her if she knew Pasche).

To me it's UTTERLY and TOTALLY inconceivable that anyone of my generation and background who was interested in (any combination of) art, The Beatles, cultural revolution, did not read and avidly study Aldridge's books. (Mine actually fell to pieces, and is now held in a slip case I made when I did a course at.... Brighton College of Art).

A lawyer would say that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Pasche was influenced by Aldridge. Any argument about the origin of the logo that ignores this aspect has no value.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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CaptainCorella

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Hairball

Along with the embellished Braun version, the similarities between the original Pasche image and the Aldridge design also seem clear to me.

I'll focus on the Aldridge-to-Pasche part of this discussion.

Pasche is a year older than me. I do not know where he was born, but we all know that he lived in Brighton (UK) in the mid-1960s. I lived in Brighton (UK) at the same time.

My point here is that 'culturally' we have a very similar background.

It is very hard indeed to sufficiently stress the upheaval represented in UK life by the emergence of The Beatles (and later the Stones). Their every movement was covered and discussed endlessly.

I vividly recall a Saturday in early June 1967, walking down a street and hearing Sgt. Pepper coming out of almost every house window as almost everyone was listening to BBC Radio One's Kenny Everett playing it for the very first time. THAT's the sort of thing that happened.

John Pasche was an art student at (then) Brighton College of Art (now part of Brighton University). A few years later my partner was a student at the same College, and through her I met many fellow students and later staff, including someone who went off to be a Head of School at the Royal College of Art. (Aside: Next time I talk to that latter I'll ask her if she knew Pasche).

To me it's UTTERLY and TOTALLY inconceivable that anyone of my generation and background who was interested in (any combination of) art, The Beatles, cultural revolution, did not read and avidly study Aldridge's books. (Mine actually fell to pieces, and is now held in a slip case I made when I did a course at.... Brighton College of Art).

A lawyer would say that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Pasche was influenced by Aldridge. Any argument about the origin of the logo that ignores this aspect has no value.

Nicely said CaptainCorella, and thanks for emphasizing the importance, significance, and all around cultural influence the Beatles had on everyone and everything.
Surely Pasche and his fellow art students had not only read the book like everyone else, they no doubt were influenced and inspired by the contemporary artwork within it.
In fact as art an student, I'd wager that Pasche might have even had copies of some of the artwork on his studio walls hoping he too could make it as big some day.
Sure Mick might have asked for a version of a hindu goddess tongue, but it seems obviously clear where Pasche went to look for his inspiration - right at the Aldridge tongue.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-29 00:55 by Hairball.

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Hairball

Pasche went to look for his inspiration - right at the Aldridge tongue.

Thanks, but the bit above is NOT what I was trying to say.

We have no way of knowing what Pasche actually did in terms of actions.

My point was, and is, that even if he didn't open Aldridge's book at all after the meeting(s) with Jagger he was without any doubt at all INFLUENCED by it (and all else that was going on).

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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CaptainCorella

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Hairball

Pasche went to look for his inspiration - right at the Aldridge tongue.

Thanks, but the bit above is NOT what I was trying to say.

We have no way of knowing what Pasche actually did in terms of actions.

My point was, and is, that even if he didn't open Aldridge's book at all after the meeting(s) with Jagger he was without any doubt at all INFLUENCED by it (and all else that was going on).

Right, I understand, and wasn't suggesting that's what you were trying to say - that was simply my own thought, and a non-literal generalization of the situation.
Bottom line - he was clearly influenced one way or another, and the image probably stuck in his mind after gazing at the book along with everyone else at the time.
Maybe he didn't even realize how closely he was borrowing from the Aldridge image, and it just crept out in his work, but the similarities are too close to think it wasn't an influence and/or was just coincidental.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-29 01:24 by Hairball.

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MisterDDDD

Popular style in the sixties/seventies. Peter Max et al.

Yup.
Lotsa mouths, lotsa influences (like all art and music) no doubt.

Yet none have nearly quite the same similarities that the Aldridge, Pasche, and Braun versions have in common with each other.
I guess some people can see the obvious resemblance between the Aldridge, Pasche, and Braun versions, while others simply don't want to see it for whatever reason.



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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-29 01:35 by Hairball.

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MisterDDDD

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MisterDDDD

Popular style in the sixties/seventies. Peter Max et al.

Yup.
Lotsa mouths, lotsa influences (like all art and music) no doubt.

.

Ultimately, we should be celebrating the 52nd anniversary of the debut of the Aldridge tongue image in the Beatles songbook,
since without it there wouldn't be the Stones tongue as we now know it.



_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-29 01:55 by Hairball.

Years ago I was looking through that book. At the time I didn't know when the logo came out specifically, who did it, that there was the original and the main version (I only knew of the main version at the time), I knew that there were other versions (the red one on the cardboard record part, for example), as well as other versions done by other people etc but I did see that ice cream chick, looked at the date, and figured out that the Stones logo came after.

It didn't seem of any concern to me that it could've been ripped off. And it sure wouldn't've surprised me if it was.

How come that Aldridge never mentioned publically about any "rip off"? He could have made a fortune if that would have been the case
And how about the person who first sliced an apple in half? How long ago is it, that the Beatles used that, far from original, half sliced boring image on their records? Was it celebrated?
Ah, maybe this question should be part of the Beatles vs Stones thread ...
Anyway, the Stones logo is and will always trigger the curiosity of many, way into the future. And, although only since a couple of years, even puts a modest light on an ice licking girl (I like the song Day Tripper, by the way).

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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Hairball

Will try and leave it at that, and on a side note, you didn't give the details regarding the contributions/embellishments involving DiMiceli and Velez yet - is there something more you can add?

They were the in-house illustrators who finished the US-logo for Craig Braun in New York - [iorr.org] , [iorr.org] .

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georgie48

Hi Hairball, I provided the b/w image to Irix, which I obtained from Braun personally many years ago. And as I mentioned earlier, It was Braun (and his team) who was inspired by Aldridge's DT image.

But you said the b/w image would be the very 1st version of the logo done by John Pasche end of 1970 which was used as rubber-stamp (must also been the rough one-inch version, faxed over in early 1971 from London by Marshall Chess [Rolling Stones Records] to Craig Braun in New York who had a deadline and needed the logo). The very same logo can be found on a letterhead for Rolling Stones Records - [iorr.org] .


[iorr.org] , [iorr.org]


[iorr.org]

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GasLightStreet

Perhaps I'm not looking at the correct issue of Brown Sugar, released April 16, 1971, but what I've seen doesn't have the original logo on it.

US: Tongue on the label - [www.45cat.com] , UK: Tongue on label and rear-cover - [www.45cat.com] , Germany: Tongue on label and front-cover - [www.45cat.com] .

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georgie48
How come that Aldridge never mentioned publically about any "rip off"? He could
And how about the person who first sliced an apple in half? How long ago is it, that the Beatles used that, far from original, half sliced boring image on their records? Was it celebrated?

Paul McCartney has said that the Apple logo (described above) was based around an idea he had when looking at a Magritte painting hanging over the fireplace in his Cavendish Avenue house. (Every home should have one).

I've never been there, so don't know which one it is - perhaps [uploads2.wikiart.org]

It first appeared on the label for Hey Jude (one of the first singles released on Apple - the others were That's the way God Planned it (Billy Preston), Those were the days (Mary Hopkin), Sour Sea Milk by Jackie Lomax and Come and Get it by Badfinger)

Hey Jude was released in August 1968 with this 'Corporate Image' on display.

So the Stones again trod in the footsteps of The Beatles almost 3 years later with the launch of the Tongue logo - designed by {Insert your choice}.... (Tongue slightly in cheek).

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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georgie48

How come that Aldridge never mentioned publically about any "rip off"?

Maybe because he simply felt honored to be quoted ....

Next thing you know, maybe Alan Partridge turns out to be the original designer!