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Doxa

We might call it more like a summary, since it involves most names associated to its creation also here mentioned, Aldridge too.

[www.rushordertees.com]

Yeah, nice try of a summary (with some mistakes), knowledge taken mostly from the discussions on [iorr.org] , [iorr.org] . His article (dated 24-Feb-2020) was mentioned here: [iorr.org] .

The hint for the inspiration of the Stones-Tongue by Alan Aldridge's Day-Tripper-illustration came on 26-Nov-2014 - [iorr.org] - by [www.RonnieSchneider.com] .

Another summary about the T&L-logo in: 'The Rolling Stones album art research by Charles Yoe' - [iorr.org] , [iorr.org] - (Sticky Fingers Album).

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Irix

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georgie48

How come that Aldridge never mentioned publically about any "rip off"?

Maybe because he simply felt honored to be quoted ....

Hi Irix,

Just like Braun, I was also "guilty" of a "quick around the corner" remark. When I later checked my correspondence with Braun, it wasn't that black and white. The stamp idea for Chess was merely happening in between, I understood. Braun and his team were already into the (Hairball will like that ) "Aldridge" mood, hence the second white line. Still, the stamp could only be a "one colour" (red) thing. It's all still 1970 and life was still pretty simple, technology wise.

Aldridge was never quoted but there is still that "misterious link" between the Stones and Aldridge with his "Rock 'n Roll Circus" guitar shaped tiger image

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

MisterDDDD's left side Kali image is undisputably having a lips/tongue, that comes very close to Aldridge's Day Tripper girl ice licking image. There are more of those kind of Kali images.
Let's be careful, when we talk about Kali, because according to many people from India, you can't mess with her!
An Idian man whom I worked with on an e-banking project way back in 2001, took a Kali image sticker with him for me after a visit to his home country and told me very interesting stuff that I put in a very colourful article about the Stones logo later that same year
The sticker must be around somewhere in our house ...

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Yeah, I somehow recall Ronnie's hint of the Aldridge connection back in 2014, and being surprised by the resemblance.

I think it very highly possible that someone recognized the greatness in one particular part of Aldridge illustration of a hot chick licking ice cream and saw its potentiality if used in a different context with a different meaning. Who knows, if even Jagger himself as Merritt speculates... Although (and way more likely), if Kali theory holds true, and lips and a tongue out were especially asked, we could think that Pasche picked up - consciously or subconsciously - an idea from Aldridge's book of how to present and illustrate that idea.

I was thinking that strange that no one - prior Schneider that is - had not discovered it earlier, especially at the time when the logo was relaesed. I mean, taken how well-known Aldridge's book was at the time, not even the author himself.. But probably that was nothing odd. I mean, who could see it if wasn't especially looking for it: people didn't see those lips and tongue, but just a woman licking an ice cream. By the time Stones logo got more familiar and recognized (didn't happen a day), Aldridge's book had done the contrary. If the Stones logo now is one of the most well known trademarks, Aldridge's book is some kind of oddity - but fascinating one - of the past now.

But I wouldn't take anything out of Pasche's role and credit here, no matter if or how much he was 'inspired' by Aldridge's drawing. He see there something no else did and the simple power and distinction of it. That that kind of shape of mouth and tongue would work in the context needed: as a simple, powerful and distinguished logo to 100% represent the attitude of the Rolling Stones, Mick Jagger's lips and sex (as he would later describe the nature of it). That's what genius art designers do.

I would say that's similar like seeing the resemblance between rock and roll's most distinguished guitar riff and the horn riff of one Martha and Vandellas song. No matter how much "Nowhere to Run" inspired Keith, consciously or not, he gave it a new context and meaning in "Satisfaction" that transcended whatever had happened before. Or like French philosopher Rene Descartes came up with the a simple but effective argument Cogito ergo sum ("I Think, therefore I exist"), which most probably is the most well-known singular argument in Western philosophy ever. Even his contemporaries noted out that the argument can be actually found in the writings of St. Augustine from the fourth century (the dude, of course, most known for Bob Dylan having a dream of). Descartes claimed not knowing the 'origin', but that doesn't matter: he saw there a whole new significance and gave it a whole new context St. Augustine could not have even dream of, and which constituted the beginning of modern philosophy in 17th century.

Pasche is in a good company...

- Doxa

P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-30 14:23 by Doxa.

Quote
georgie48

Just like Braun, I was also "guilty" of a "quick around the corner" remark. When I later checked my correspondence with Braun, it wasn't that black and white. The stamp idea for Chess was merely happening in between, I understood. Braun and his team were already into the (Hairball will like that ) "Aldridge" mood, hence the second white line. Still, the stamp could only be a "one colour" (red) thing. It's all still 1970 and life was still pretty simple, technology wise.

Very interesting.

So the b/w image you provided to me - [iorr.org] - is not the first version of the logo designed by John Pasche. But the logo depicted in the b/w image was already used in 1970 by Rolling Stones Records - [iorr.org] .

John Pasche said he unfortunately doesn't have the sketches of his first drafts anymore - [www.EyeMagazine.com] .

It would still be interesting to see how John Pasche's first logo-version in 1970 looked.

Quote
georgie48
MisterDDDD's left side Kali image is undisputably having a lips/tongue, that comes very close to Aldridge's Day Tripper girl ice licking image. There are more of those kind of Kali images.
Let's be careful, when we talk about Kali, because according to many people from India, you can't mess with her!
An Idian man whom I worked with on an e-banking project way back in 2001, took a Kali image sticker with him for me after a visit to his home country and told me very interesting stuff that I put in a very colourful article about the Stones logo later that same year
The sticker must be around somewhere in our house ...

Would like to read your article if you're inclined to post, georgie.

I land firmly in the drawings (especially of the era) of mouths and lips are of course all similar camp. Obviously there are going to be similar examples out there.
A lot of the Kali images look very much like Aldridge's, so much so that if they were the ones done later, they apparently would be accused of copying his.
End of the day, doesn't really matter where the "inspiration" came from on any of them, but I don't believe anyone has seriously doubted the Mick showed up with clippings of Kali account, and there's the origin.
Pasche then came up with the tongue and lips, based on Kali and Mick, Braun embellished it/cleaned it up, and here we are.

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Irix

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Hairball

From Craig Braun: "Ultimately, it ended up being my version, not his, they use everywhere. They use mine for the tours, merchandising, licensing. Ironically, the V&A Museum paid Pasche almost £100,000 for his original logo art, but it’s not the official Stones version”

There's a "small" mistake: it were almost US-$ 100,000 (not British Pound). From et al. [www.NYTimes.com] : "In 2008, the Victoria and Albert Museum in London bought his original artwork for £50,000 ($92,500)."

I took the quote directly from the link - Beatles toungue - but as you pointed out in a subsequent post, the article has several more mistakes, and most of the info was taken directly from a previous IORR thread.
After reading through the article, and noting links to IORR, and quotes that sounded very familiar, figured it was all a bunch of recycled/borrowed/stolen info. from Imri Merritt w/out giving credit.

But the fact remains - *John Pasche made a heck alot of money from it, as well as receiving the sole credit from various people and places,
even though it seems clear now there were several others who contributed and embellished the eventual design (not to mention the Aldridge original).

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-30 18:45 by Hairball.

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Rockman


Well ya can see where The Fab Four got
their look for the Strawberry Pepper era ....

Yup.
Aldridge sure appeared to be a big fan, like Mick, of the Kali imagery.

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MisterDDDD

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georgie48
MisterDDDD's left side Kali image is undisputably having a lips/tongue, that comes very close to Aldridge's Day Tripper girl ice licking image. There are more of those kind of Kali images.
Let's be careful, when we talk about Kali, because according to many people from India, you can't mess with her!
An Idian man whom I worked with on an e-banking project way back in 2001, took a Kali image sticker with him for me after a visit to his home country and told me very interesting stuff that I put in a very colourful article about the Stones logo later that same year
The sticker must be around somewhere in our house ...

Would like to read your article if you're inclined to post, georgie.

I land firmly in the drawings (especially of the era) of mouths and lips are of course all similar camp. Obviously there are going to be similar examples out there.
A lot of the Kali images look very much like Aldridge's, so much so that if they were the ones done later, they apparently would be accused of copying his.
End of the day, doesn't really matter where the "inspiration" came from on any of them, but I don't believe anyone has seriously doubted the Mick showed up with clippings of Kali account, and there's the origin.
Pasche then came up with the tongue and lips, based on Kali and Mick, Braun embellished it/cleaned it up, and here we are.

I looked it up and its even older (the year 2000). It can be found in a bi-lingual (English and Dutch) Rolling Stones fanzine called Stones People Magazine (issue 12). I even feel a little embarrased now, because at that time I knew nothing about the USA history of the logo and mentioned Pasche also as the creator of the USA version. Hence "someone in high places" apparently wanted me to check out the real history around 2012-2013, maybe finding my article charming but innocent
I see if I can scan some images and text.

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Hi MisterDDDD,
here is the first bit. I hope you can read it (the English bit).








I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

MisterDDDD,

Some more images/remaining text of the 2000 article. I hope you forgive my innocense of those days
I was only 50 years young







I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

You might know the answer to this georgie considering all your research, but wondering if *John Pasche ever felt the urge or desire to share (or reimburse) some of the money he made off the tongue.
Or if not, has he ever given a bit of credit to anyone other than Mick, Kali, and himself? There were so many people who lent a hand to "his" primitive design which also owes some credit to the near identical Aldridge tongue,
but there's also Braun (who didn't sound too pleased),Velez, and Dimicelli to be considered...and maybe even Cefalu. Would be nice to know if he ever admitted his version was simply a rough draft at least.

PS - Thanks for posting your article - lots of tongues (!), and I'm able to click, save, and enlarge - will read though it later.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-03-30 22:43 by Hairball.

Quote
georgie48
MisterDDDD,

Some more images/remaining text of the 2000 article. I hope you forgive my innocense of those days
I was only 50 years young

Thanks very much for taking the time and posting your work.
Nothing to forgive, very impressive.

"The long tongued devil".. Starting to see Mick's and others, fascination with the goddess.

Quote
Hairball
You might know the answer to this georgie considering all your research, but wondering if *John Pasche ever felt the urge or desire to share (or reimburse) some of the money he made off the tongue.
Or if not, has he ever given a bit of credit to anyone other than Mick, Kali, and himself? There were so many people who lent a hand to "his" primitive design which also owes some credit to the near identical Aldridge tongue,
but there's also Braun (who didn't sound too pleased),Velez, and Dimicelli to be considered...and maybe even Cefalu. Would be nice to know if he ever admitted his version was simply a rough draft at least.

PS - Thanks for posting your article - lots of tongues (!), and I'm able to click, save, and enlarge - will read though it later.

Hi Hairball,
I remember an interview with Pasche where he was asked about "that other version". He said he had nothing to do with that (USA) version. In other words, he didn't take credit for that. He was, and I think genually, not well aware of what had happened in the USA (just like me 21 years ago ). He mentioned that he knew that a fax had to be send to the USA in 1970 of his (later approved) version. He had no clue who those Americans were. It was all Marshall Chess' doing at that time and even for Chess those were chaotic times. Remember, Pasche was a very young man and honoured to be chosen by Mick to work for the Stones (f.i. a couple tour posters too). Possibly the names of Velez and DiMiceli were/maybe still are totally unfamiliar to him.
I don't want to spend more words on Cefalu. He was/is a very gifted designer working for Braun for a short time and took too much credit for his work there.
Enjoy reading, but keep in mind that it was the year 2000

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Thanks georgie,

As for the title - The True Origins of the Rolling Stones Tongue & Lip Design...
Given this was written way back in 2000, and based on what you now know and have learned since then, might be a good time to revisit the subject.
Considering it's still an unsolved mystery as we've seen in these various threads, you could revise the title, and/or revise some of the text!
Thinking maybe The Unknown Origins of the Rolling Stones Tongue & Lip Design would be an appropriate title.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

What a thrill this must have been to receive for the young art student.
Shame, but not surprising that other more experienced designers who'd been around a while have tried to take credit.
Where's there's big money involved, and Americans, bound to happen though.

Glad he kept the receipts at least.

I had this strange dream last night, Hairball.

In that dream there was a conversation between Mick Jagger and Alan Aldridge in the year 1968. While the Stones were still under contract with DECCA, the Beatles were in the process of creating Apple records. There had been talks that the Beatles and the Rolling Stones were planning to start a new record company together. DECCA was the problem, so the Beatles went their own way.
Mick, looking ahead as alsways, was asking Alan to think about a logo for the Rolling Stones based on Mick's passion for Hinduism and Mick showed him an image of KALI. The Stones were also working on the making of a TV movie with the title Rolling Stones Rock 'n Roll Circus and so Alan was asked to make a poster for that too.
Alan, befriended with the Beatles, thought he could ask a lot of money from the Stones (read: Mick) for that, so Mick felt being ripped off and withdrew the total offer.
Alan however, had this KALI image and thought he could take advantage of it and came up with the ice licking girl for the Day Tripper song in his book.
It would also explain the fact that his R'n R Circus guitar-Tiger poster was never used.

Well, it's April 1 today, so it must have been a very nasty dream. Still ... ?

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Quote
Irix

Quote
georgie48

Just like Braun, I was also "guilty" of a "quick around the corner" remark. When I later checked my correspondence with Braun, it wasn't that black and white. The stamp idea for Chess was merely happening in between, I understood. Braun and his team were already into the (Hairball will like that ) "Aldridge" mood, hence the second white line. Still, the stamp could only be a "one colour" (red) thing. It's all still 1970 and life was still pretty simple, technology wise.

Very interesting.

So the b/w image you provided to me - [iorr.org] - is not the first version of the logo designed by John Pasche. But the logo depicted in the b/w image was already used in 1970 by Rolling Stones Records - [iorr.org] .

John Pasche said he unfortunately doesn't have the sketches of his first drafts anymore - [www.EyeMagazine.com] .

It would still be interesting to see how John Pasche's first logo-version in 1970 looked.

I have to figure out where I read that, but Chess mentioned that there was a meeting (apparently in the Netherlands, but not sure) with some of the Stones and they went through several logo sketches that Pasche had made based on Jagger's request. One of them was selected and Pasche was asked to "finish it off". I can image that Pasche disposed of his different sketches in the end.

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Quote
Doxa
P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)

Seriously OT, but still...
You are presumably talking about Dr. Friedrich Krohn, from Sternberg? A dentist, don't know if Sternberg is in Austria.
[www.crwflags.com]

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GhostTown2021

Quote
Doxa
P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)

Seriously OT, but still...
You are presumably talking about Dr. Friedrich Krohn, from Sternberg? A dentist, don't know if Sternberg is in Austria.
[www.crwflags.com]

Pretty sure Doxa's guy is way more (in)famous and probably is the most hated person in the world, ever.

Didn't Keith say (interview or written somewhere) something about the Stones playing at Zeppelinfeld in Nürnberg? He did put it into perspective one way or the other with some kinky remarks. I'll have to find that.

The discussion on the zwatsika (far, far more meaningful in Bhuddism) flags that crossed this field some 90 years ago triggered a bit of fantasy in me. You could say that the symbol of the Rolling Stones "licked away" forever that other dark symbol. Music conquered love there in Nürnberg on that infamous location ...


I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-04-10 12:10 by georgie48.

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DandelionPowderman

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GhostTown2021

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Doxa
P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)

Seriously OT, but still...
You are presumably talking about Dr. Friedrich Krohn, from Sternberg? A dentist, don't know if Sternberg is in Austria.
[www.crwflags.com]

Pretty sure Doxa's guy is way more (in)famous and probably is the most hated person in the world, ever.

Well, my point was that it was Krohn who picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it. Not the other guy.

To bring this almost on topic, saying the failed artist designed the flag is a bit like saying Warhol designed the tongue logo. Many think so, but that does not make it so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-04-10 13:04 by GhostTown2021.

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GhostTown2021

Quote
DandelionPowderman

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GhostTown2021

Quote
Doxa
P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)

Seriously OT, but still...
You are presumably talking about Dr. Friedrich Krohn, from Sternberg? A dentist, don't know if Sternberg is in Austria.
[www.crwflags.com]

Pretty sure Doxa's guy is way more (in)famous and probably is the most hated person in the world, ever.

Well, my point was that it was Krohn who picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it. Not the other guy.

To bring this almost on topic, saying the failed artist designed the flag is a bit like saying Warhol designed the tongue logo. Many think so, but that does not make it so.

Gotcha, but he wasn't the 'failed Austrian artist'...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-04-10 14:04 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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GhostTown2021

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Doxa
P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)

Seriously OT, but still...
You are presumably talking about Dr. Friedrich Krohn, from Sternberg? A dentist, don't know if Sternberg is in Austria.
[www.crwflags.com]

Pretty sure Doxa's guy is way more (in)famous and probably is the most hated person in the world, ever.

Well, it depends on where one lived at the time. In Asia it could very well be the royal leader of the land of the rising sun, though in truth he was only a symbolic puppet at the time. But many don't know the name of the evil leader there in those days, Mr. T.H., so the puppet it was ...
By the way, the white flag with the rising red sun and it's red rays still make many shiver, which makes it a still working "logo"
"Our" beautiful lips & tongue logo though make so many (even those who don't know its origin) smile

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

I give Mick all the credit in the world for this one. He picked it out and ran with it. He had help from people around him, sure, but he picked the people around him.
Very astute of him.
Keith and Charlie must have been in the loop, too?

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GhostTown2021

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DandelionPowderman

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GhostTown2021

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Doxa
P.S. If the analogies of Keef or Cartesius are not good enough, we could add - more close to efficient logo-making - one failed Austrian artist who back in the 1920s picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it, and thereby gave it a whole new meaning associated to it ever since.... (this is not a good company...)

Seriously OT, but still...
You are presumably talking about Dr. Friedrich Krohn, from Sternberg? A dentist, don't know if Sternberg is in Austria.
[www.crwflags.com]

Pretty sure Doxa's guy is way more (in)famous and probably is the most hated person in the world, ever.

Well, my point was that it was Krohn who picked up an ancient symbol and made a flag out of it. Not the other guy.

To bring this almost on topic, saying the failed artist designed the flag is a bit like saying Warhol designed the tongue logo. Many think so, but that does not make it so.

Hmm... the failed artist credits himself for designing the flag in his book - the one Keith Richards has claimed everyone owns a copy but no one has read it - but admits that the dentist's one is "similar". (This is based on the click of yours above - no direct source, since I don't own a copy, sorry Keith..).

But no matter how interesting this is, I think we better stick back to wondering the origin of a tongue logo...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-04-10 19:14 by Doxa.

Just 3 more days...

Quote
GasLightStreet
Just 3 more days...

Yep ... the American single with the American logo
The non-American singles show the "stamp based" one colour logo on a yellow background label. Again, this difference shows/proves the decentralized production of the records and labels in those days. The only global input was the Sticky Fingers album sleeve, produced in the USA.
... two more days

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Quote
georgie48

Quote
GasLightStreet
Just 3 more days...

Yep ... the American single with the American logo
The non-American singles show the "stamp based" one colour logo on a yellow background label. Again, this difference shows/proves the decentralized production of the records and labels in those days. The only global input was the Sticky Fingers album sleeve, produced in the USA.
... two more days

I didn't search enough, was thinking there should be a difference.

That's at least 4 different versions of the logo used in 1971.