The best selling live album in the USA ever was Garth Brooks: Double Live, and it came from a large amount of unnamed shows from 1996-1998 with a massive amount of studio dubbing. It captures the Garth live thing well, but is basically a studio re-creation.

Thin Lizzy's "Live and Dangerous"- According to producer Tony Visconti, Phil came in to re-do some vocals, which prompted the rest of the band to demand a chance to re-do their parts and by the time the dust settled only the drums were live.

Rarely do record companies put out raw live recordings, there is almost always some sweetening and overdubbing done. Exceptions include some stuff like the Owsley recordings of NRPS and Allman Bros, Hot Tuna etc that his foundation has been releasing.

Certainly every Stones live set has been modified in the studio, some more than others, but some a lot, bordering on complete re-recording of passages and sections and/or splicing in sections from other performances right in the middle of songs, like Keith's guitar sounds better on this performance than the other but the rest of that performance is crap or has tech problems so they lift the guitar part and paste it into whatever they are working on to release and usually no one is the wiser and it is rarely revealed in liner notes or similar.

But the fact is, soundboards just sound kind of flat, they need some overdubbing and improvement post recording. And professional bands don't like putting out stuff that shows flaws, unless you are the Grateful Dead. Frank Zappa has been approaching that in some of his recent releases, but he was always right on top of things so there were rarely instrumental mistakes even in the original recording of live shows. The newest Mothers 1970 is a great example of pretty much flawless playing right off the soundboard tapes.

jb

..... awwww well chicks wear make-up ....



ROCKMAN

Led Zeppelin - Stairway To Heaven from How The West Was Won

From the old days of The Song Remains The Same soundtrack album, it has been no secret their live albums are products of Frankensteining. On this take of their rock uber-anthem, producer Jimmy Page went one step further. When the song starts, you hear the sweet sound of the Mellotron played by John Paul Jones, which he started to use on stage since the October tour of Japan 1972. ...Wait a minute, this album was recorded in California in June prior to Japan. From the song’s live debut in Spring 1971 till the end of the U.S. Summer tour 1972, it was played by Hammond and Fender Rhordes. What’s going on here..? Jimmy swapped the Hammond track with the Mellotron one from the recordings of Southampton Uni, January 22, 1973. I really love the sombre, melancholic timbre of the Hammond of the tune’s early live performances. I miss it. To begin with, when you already have the 1973 MSG version, what’s the point of releasing yet another Mellotron version?

On the other side of the coin- Its Too Late to Stop Now, one of the best live LPs ever and one every music fan should own-

Unlike most live rock albums, there was no studio overdubbing allowed by Morrison, which resulted in the exclusion of "Moondance" from the album due to one wrong guitar note. Morrison strictly adhered to his concept of authenticity in presenting the live performance but his musical perfectionism prevented him from including "Moondance".[15] "It's common practice to go back and fix things, but not with Van," bass player David Hayes said, "I think that's what makes it one of the best ever."[16] It is thought to be one of the first live albums with no overdubs and the first live album to have string players.[11]

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RisingStone
Led Zeppelin - Stairway To Heaven from How The West Was Won

From the old days of The Song Remains The Same soundtrack album, it has been no secret their live albums are products of Frankensteining. On this take of their rock uber-anthem, producer Jimmy Page went one step further. When the song starts, you hear the sweet sound of the Mellotron played by John Paul Jones, which he started to use on stage since the October tour of Japan 1972. ...Wait a minute, this album was recorded in California in June prior to Japan. From the song’s live debut in Spring 1971 till the end of the U.S. Summer tour 1972, it was played by Hammond and Fender Rhordes. What’s going on here..? Jimmy swapped the Hammond track with the Mellotron one from the recordings of Southampton Uni, January 22, 1973. I really love the sombre, melancholic timbre of the Hammond of the tune’s early live performances. I miss it. To begin with, when you already have the 1973 MSG version, what’s the point of releasing yet another Mellotron version?

Yeah, Zep is almost to a laughable agree. The original Song Remains the Same is an absolute mess. The new one sounds very good, and How The West Was Won I've always thought is great and sounds way more natural. A great read is the Song Remains The Same thing by this Garden Tapes guy. He analyzed the whole thing and when How The West Was Won came out they asked Jimmy why he used two shows and he said "to give that Garden Tapes guy something to do" lol. But Jimmy's a well known perfectionist. I'd argue it goes too far, but ultimately the results sound good.

Absolutely agree with jbwelda, you do need to usually juice stuff up a bit or its too flat. I think there's a fine line, and I also think there's doing it with reason. Again, KISS' reasoning with Alive makes sense, and 45 years later it provides what is the most accurate representation of what a show was then, probably moreso than a straight live recording could. Then there's stuff like Lou Reed's Rock N Roll Animal and Lou Reed Live. Same show, but they juiced up Rock N Roll Animal in a different way so that it sounds WAY better than Live. Sure, maybe the songs are better too, but ultimately, the sound has a lot to do with it and Live is basically straight soundboard. Animal benefits from the juice, and there's no harm in that. Its still as it was played.

Cream - Wheels Of Fire ‘Live At The Fillmore’

Complicated case, this one.

When this double album, a set of studio and live recordings, was released in 1968, the second disk was tagged with only ‘Live At The Fillmore’ as the subtitle. Other than that, no recording information was given. For a long time, there is the information prevailing around that the shows were recorded in San Francisco, at the Fillmore Auditorium on March 7 and the Winterland Ballroom on March 8-10, 1968. Of the four tracks cut on the ‘live’ disk, it was (and still widely is) believed that Crossroads and Spoonful were recorded at the Winterland on March 10, whereas Traintime was recorded at the same venue on the 8th, leaving Toad the only performance recorded at the Fillmore on the 7th — which would make ‘Live At The Winterland’ a more apt subtitle. The general assumption among the fans was that the record company decided upon the more prestigious Fillmore for the subtitle aiming at the mass appeal — a precursor of cheap trick, so to speak!

Then. Sometime around mid-2000, a Frisco local musician by the name of Billy Stapleton posted a memoir titled “A Romp With Cream Behind the Scenes” on his website [billystapleton.com] . In this detailed article, Billy publicized the venue change of the March 10 show from Winterland to Fillmore. This came as quite a surprise for the circle of Cream enthusiasts, for all the surviving posters/flyers/ticket stubs invariably show the venue name for March 10 as Winterland, without exception.

Over the years, though, proofs that back up Billy’s recollection have surfaced one by one:
1. An advertisement of Discount Records Inc, a local record dealer, that puts the concert information of Cream. It states, “THURSDAY & SUNDAY MARCH 7 & 10 AT THE FILLMORE” and “FRIDAY & SATURDAY MARCH 8 & 9 AT WINTERLAND”. It also announces, “This Weekend”, which may indicate that the venue change happened at the last minute and that’s why the original venue name is on the posters/flyers/ticket stubs.
2. Event information on some local publication supposedly delivered on March 8. After mentioning Cream concerts at Winterland “Tonight and tomorrow night”, it goes, “On Sunday, the show will be at the intimate Fillmore, also starting at 8:30.”
3. Bill Halverson, the engineer who worked for the live recordings of these shows, answered the question on his Facebook, “Thurs. Fillmore. Fri/Sat. Winterland. Sun. Fillmore.”
4. A photo of Eric Clapton relaxing in the dressing room of the Fillmore, taken on March 10.

Conclusion: contrary to the popular belief, Wheels Of Fire ‘Live At The Fillmore’ is...live at the Fillmore, after all. For the most part, that is.

[Edit: 27/12/20] Accordingly, N.S.U., Sweet Wine (both takes on Live Cream) and Tales Of Brave Ulysses (Live Cream Vol. 2) were also recorded at the Fillmore, not the Winterland, on March 10, 1968.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-27 04:34 by RisingStone.

Pink Floyd - Pulse

David Gilmour acknowledged that patches were used and stated they were taken from other live but no studio overdub were applied.

So the Pulse album remains 100% live recordingS.

Roger Waters - The Wall Live In Berlin

Unique show but power outage during the event.

So some retake had to be made afterwards.

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Cheap Trick At Budokan not only elevated the group to stardom but also made the Budokan world famous and one of the most celebrated, iconic rock venues of all. However, the bulk of this album is actually from the Koseinenkin Kaikan (a 2,400 seater), Osaka, April 27, 1978, the previous date to the Budokan shows (April 28 and 30). The story goes that the producer found the tapes recorded at the Budokan unusable for the most part for some technical reason therefore opted for the Osaka recording, supposedly prepared for the backup. It has been no secret from the day it was released, but my general impression is that both record company and journalists have deliberately avoided mentioning this fact as much as possible to this day, presumably to keep the prestige that is attached to the album and the venue. I have never come across a track-by-track recording credit (the date and the venue on each track) anywhere, even in an “in-depth” feature of the album in a music magazine. Ever.

Above is the comment I recently posted on the “Any Cheap Trick Fans Here?” thread, which has spurred me to create a new thread.

I’m sure many of you IORR’ians are aware of an existence of a certain live album of which credits — venue, location, recording date(s) etc — are partially or entirely altered for some reason or other, deliberately or by mistake. I’m no expert of The Rolling Stones’ recording details, but know of some of the Paris-credited portions of Love You Live being actually from Toronto, L.A. and London, for example. There is even a case that an album is promoted by adopting the well-known fake information like Bob Dylan’s Live 1966: The “Royal Albert Hall” Concert, exploiting the audio source’s long established status thanks to the famous bootleg with its false title when it was actually recorded at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester. Now, does anybody know another similar example of these sorts?

I think in the case of the Dylan show, I read many years ago that someone who went to the Albert Hall simply and quite innocently wrote to Columbia about how much he had enjoyed the concert and asked if it would be possible to get a recording - and someone at the record company duly obliged! (this was in 1966 - three years before rock bootlegs were even thought of). However the recording that he received was Manchester so, assuming it was London 26/5/66 the show ended up being bootlegged as from that date in good faith until sometime around the 80s noted that the 'Judas' incident contained in the recording was actually from Manchester.

When Columbia released the show officially in 1998 as Bootleg Series Vol 4 they didnt actually pretend that it was from the RAH show, the subtitle 'The 'Royal Albert Hall' Concert' (note inverted commas around the name of the venue) merely acknowledged the original title, whilst the back cover of the album confirmed the correct source.

The reason LYL was all credited as Paris '76/Toronto '77 was for publishing / contractual reasons as the Stones were on a different distribution deal in 1975.

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Gazza
I think in the case of the Dylan show, I read many years ago that someone who went to the Albert Hall simply and quite innocently wrote to Columbia about how much he had enjoyed the concert and asked if it would be possible to get a recording - and someone at the record company duly obliged! (this was in 1966 - three years before rock bootlegs were even thought of). However the recording that he received was Manchester so, assuming it was London 26/5/66 the show ended up being bootlegged as from that date in good faith until sometime around the 80s noted that the 'Judas' incident contained in the recording was actually from Manchester.

When Columbia released the show officially in 1998 as Bootleg Series Vol 4 they didnt actually pretend that it was from the RAH show, the subtitle 'The 'Royal Albert Hall' Concert' (note inverted commas around the name of the venue) merely acknowledged the original title, whilst the back cover of the album confirmed the correct source.

The reason LYL was all credited as Paris '76/Toronto '77 was for publishing / contractual reasons as the Stones were on a different distribution deal in 1975.

I remember I read that story, too, although I forgot where and when. Happening in the good old — and naive — days. Totally inconceivable today.

And, yes, that’s what I was trying to say about The “Royal Albert Hall” Concert. All intentional by Columbia.

I’m struggling to understand in what contractual reasons why the songs performed in other cities needed to be credited as altogether from Paris on LYL, though...

well they could have said on the cover that it was Paris and London (76) and Toronto (77).

The only issues were (maybe someone can clarify the finer details) that their previous record company (Atlantic I think) owned the rights to their performances up to 1975, so the performances on the album from the 1975 Los Angeles (Sympathy) and Toronto shows (Fingerprint File & IORR) were deliberately miscredited.

Errrr...that makes sense.

It is hard to understand how a record company "owns" the rights to performances they do not release. My understanding: they own no such rights.

jb

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ROLLINGSTONE
Going at a slight tangent; one of the best ever 'off the cuff' live albums you'll ever hear is Slade Alive. Recorded over 2 nights with a raucous audience, great setlist of mainly covers and almost zero overdubs. One of my favourites.

Slade Alive was the first album I ever bought. A great album by a great band.

Rainbow - On Stage [Deluxe Edition]

The bonus disk of this 2CD edition, released in 2012, is credited in the leaflet as “Koseinenkin Kaikan, Osaka, Japan 9th December 1976”. It is actually the recording from the Budokan, Tokyo, December 16 (evening show) — the final performance of the group’s first Japan tour. It is highly regarded as the best show of the tour by many. Every one of the audience who was there agrees that it was a great, memorable show, one of Richie Blackmore’s finest moments in Japan ever. If so, why is such a superb concert given the other date in the credit? The original On Stage album contains a few tracks from the same Budokan show hence there are some duplications. Cover it up, guys...

[*To be fair, the presentations of the duplicated tracks, i.e. the mix, the edits etc, are quite different between the two disks — some fans couldn’t care less.]

[www.rainbowfanclan.com]

Running out of ideas, people? Any new addition or comment welcome...

Family - Live

This CD only release (Mystic MYS CD 17, Sep 2003) is allegedly the recording from the Rainbow Theatre in London according to the attached leaflet (no date specified). The group certainly played the said venue on November 26, 1971, during the Fearless tour — but the performance heard on this CD, flawless as it is, was actually recorded at the BBC Playhouse Theatre on December 16 for In Concert (first broadcast: Dec 28), the same program and venue Led Zeppelin performed back in April (later released in numerous bootlegs before going official). Assumingly copyright-related matters or the record company trying to give the consumers an impression this is a proper gig from the tour. In either case, feels like heard it all before...

Don't forget the Kinks' amazing One More for the Road (title?)from the late 70s-early 80s era. A FUN record, but Ray Davies openly said from the beginning that it was a hybrid of live and studio overdubs.

stonesstein

Kick me like you did before
I can't even feel the pain no more
Rocks Off, 1972

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RisingStone
Rainbow - On Stage [Deluxe Edition]

The bonus disk of this 2CD edition, released in 2012, is credited in the leaflet as “Koseinenkin Kaikan, Osaka, Japan 9th December 1976”. It is actually the recording from the Budokan, Tokyo, December 16 (evening show) — the final performance of the group’s first Japan tour. It is highly regarded as the best show of the tour by many. Every one of the audience who was there agrees that it was a great, memorable show, one of Richie Blackmore’s finest moments in Japan ever. If so, why is such a superb concert given the other date in the credit? The original On Stage album contains a few tracks from the same Budokan show hence there are some duplications. Cover it up, guys...

[*To be fair, the presentations of the duplicated tracks, i.e. the mix, the edits etc, are quite different between the two disks — some fans couldn’t care less.]

[www.rainbowfanclan.com]

That Rainbow On Stage album is @#$%& incredible, no matter where it was recorded.

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RollingFreak

That Rainbow On Stage album is @#$%& incredible, no matter where it was recorded.

I saw them on this tour, at the Kyoto Kaikan, December 10, 1976 — the one and only time I have caught Richie Blackmore in person to this day. I vividly remember Ronnie James Dio announced from the stage that Tommy Bolin had died, which utterly shocked the audience, the whole floor went speechless.

The seminal Deep Purple Made In Japan live album was, like Cheap Trick At Budokan, initially planned as a Japanese-only release. For the Japanese market, it was released under the rather insipid title, Live In Japan, with the cover picture showing the group performing on stage at the Budokan, and advertised that the whole album was recorded there. A few months afterwards, it was also released with the alternate title and a different cover outside Japan, and import copies started to circulate around Japanese record stores. The Japanese knew the truth — the foreign sleeve had the credit that informed them, out of the seven tracks, five were from the Festival Hall, Osaka. Another precursor of cheap trick that didn’t work long.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-08-31 03:37 by RisingStone.

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RisingStone

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RollingFreak

That Rainbow On Stage album is @#$%& incredible, no matter where it was recorded.

I saw them on this tour, at the Kyoto Kaikan, December 10, 1976 — the one and only time I have caught Richie Blackmore in person to this day. I vividly remember Ronnie James Dio announced from the stage that Tommy Bolin had died, which utterly shocked the audience, the whole floor went speechless.

Thats amazing. Jesus. Yeah, they were all upset about Tommy Bolin, so tragic. Thats insane 1. that you got to see them, 2. that that happened, 3. again that you got to see that magnificent band.

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RisingStone

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RollingFreak

That Rainbow On Stage album is @#$%& incredible, no matter where it was recorded.

I saw them on this tour, at the Kyoto Kaikan, December 10, 1976 — the one and only time I have caught Richie Blackmore in person to this day. I vividly remember Ronnie James Dio announced from the stage that Tommy Bolin had died, which utterly shocked the audience, the whole floor went speechless.

Thats amazing. Jesus. Yeah, they were all upset about Tommy Bolin, so tragic. Thats insane 1. that you got to see them, 2. that that happened, 3. again that you got to see that magnificent band.

I’ve never been so keen on Deep Purple/Rainbow (can’t say I’m a fan of Blackmore), but, yeah, it is fair to say I was quite impressed by the show. Another thing I remember strongly is Cozy Powell’s drum solo, played over Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture. That was one hell of an earthshaker — “@#$%&’ monster,” I thought.
Forty-four years ago...where have all these times gone?

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RisingStone

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RollingFreak

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RollingFreak

That Rainbow On Stage album is @#$%& incredible, no matter where it was recorded.

I saw them on this tour, at the Kyoto Kaikan, December 10, 1976 — the one and only time I have caught Richie Blackmore in person to this day. I vividly remember Ronnie James Dio announced from the stage that Tommy Bolin had died, which utterly shocked the audience, the whole floor went speechless.

Thats amazing. Jesus. Yeah, they were all upset about Tommy Bolin, so tragic. Thats insane 1. that you got to see them, 2. that that happened, 3. again that you got to see that magnificent band.

I’ve never been so keen on Deep Purple/Rainbow (can’t say I’m a fan of Blackmore), but, yeah, it is fair to say I was quite impressed by the show. Another thing I remember strongly is Cozy Powell’s drum solo, played over Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture. That was one hell of an earthshaker — “@#$%&’ monster,” I thought.
Forty-four years ago...where have all these times gone?

Cozy Powell, one of my favourite drummers! Saw him in 84 when he was with Whitesnake so a Deep Purple connection. One thing about David Coverdale, he sure has had excellent musicians over the years. Ian Paice and Jon Lord joined him with Whitesnake. Cozy joined when Paice left and then Tommy Aldridge joined when Cozy left. Check out some of Aldridge's Youtube videos. Wow, that guy just pounds the drums and does drum solos with his hands.

Tommy Aldridge has been great since the Black Oak Arkansas days.

Arguably, the best musician in the band (Ricky Reynolds is great also).

Hell, Jim Dandy influenced both David Lee Roth and Axl Rose. I'd like to see those three in a fight! LOL

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Elmo Lewis
Tommy Aldridge has been great since the Black Oak Arkansas days.

Arguably, the best musician in the band (Ricky Reynolds is great also).

Hell, Jim Dandy influenced both David Lee Roth and Axl Rose. I'd like to see those three in a fight! LOL

Yes, Black Oak as well as Pat Travers Band and Ozzy, both of those bands had great musicians.

Yup, no one could argue with Coverdale's ability to pick talent and recruit them. Purple was very much the same way. A lot of talent that went through Purple/Whitesnake/Rainbow. I'm actually also not a huge Purple fan (I do love Ronnie Dio era Rainbow and up till 1984 Whitesnake with Marsden and Moody), but Blackmore could play with the best of them, and that Rainbow band was a force to be reckoned with.

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Gazza
well they could have said on the cover that it was Paris and London (76) and Toronto (77).

The only issues were (maybe someone can clarify the finer details) that their previous record company (Atlantic I think) owned the rights to their performances up to 1975, so the performances on the album from the 1975 Los Angeles (Sympathy) and Toronto shows (Fingerprint File & IORR) were deliberately miscredited.

Yes this is a result of their infamous divorce from ABKO.

There was a clause preventing them to publish live rerecording made until 1975 of material originally recorded for Decca. But radio and TV broadcasting of live event was not covered by this clause.

By 2011 this clause was obviously revised (newly negotiated or expired?) as Brussels Affair was published, and in 2015 the 1971 Marquee TV show.

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ds1984

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Gazza
well they could have said on the cover that it was Paris and London (76) and Toronto (77).

The only issues were (maybe someone can clarify the finer details) that their previous record company (Atlantic I think) owned the rights to their performances up to 1975, so the performances on the album from the 1975 Los Angeles (Sympathy) and Toronto shows (Fingerprint File & IORR) were deliberately miscredited.

Yes this is a result of their infamous divorce from ABKO.

There was a clause preventing them to publish live rerecording made until 1975 of material originally recorded for Decca. But radio and TV broadcasting of live event was not covered by this clause.

By 2011 this clause was obviously revised (newly negotiated or expired?) as Brussels Affair was published, and in 2015 the 1971 Marquee TV show.

Oh yeah, the same bloody clause that prevented the release of 'Great Lost Live Album' from the 1972 tour due to three ABKCO era songs. So most likely it was now barely question of "Sympathy For The Devil" but they fooled ABKCO by adding "Fingerprint File" and "Only R&R" to the 'fraud' thereby hiding all the traits to 1975 tour...

It would be interesting to know how is that clause doing these days, indeed. It could be that - if it still exists - they made some deals with ABKCO. Before BRUSSELS AFFAIR (2011) the Stones let the expanded edition of YA-YA'S to be released (2010) having material they had a veto right over. And since then both 'Tongue Team' and ABKCO have released live stuff the other supposedly has some rights to veto: LEEDS '71 and Roundhouse stuff, LIVE IN ENGLAND '65, ON AIR... Probably both of them belonging under the umbrella of UMG helps.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-08-31 15:02 by Doxa.

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Gazza
well they could have said on the cover that it was Paris and London (76) and Toronto (77).

The only issues were (maybe someone can clarify the finer details) that their previous record company (Atlantic I think) owned the rights to their performances up to 1975, so the performances on the album from the 1975 Los Angeles (Sympathy) and Toronto shows (Fingerprint File & IORR) were deliberately miscredited.

Yes this is a result of their infamous divorce from ABKO.

There was a clause preventing them to publish live rerecording made until 1975 of material originally recorded for Decca. But radio and TV broadcasting of live event was not covered by this clause.

By 2011 this clause was obviously revised (newly negotiated or expired?) as Brussels Affair was published, and in 2015 the 1971 Marquee TV show.

Are you shure it was revised? Because Brussels Affair (although the "other" show) and Marquee Club were both Broadcasts and they didn't release anything else from that Period. That would explain a lot