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Above is the comment I recently posted on the “Any Cheap Trick Fans Here?” thread, which has spurred me to create a new thread.
I’m sure many of you IORR’ians are aware of an existence of a certain live album of which credits — venue, location, recording date(s) etc — are partially or entirely altered for some reason or other, deliberately or by mistake. I’m no expert of The Rolling Stones’ recording details, but know of some of the Paris-credited portions of Love You Live being actually from Toronto, L.A. and London, for example. There is even a case that an album is promoted by adopting the well-known fake information like Bob Dylan’s Live 1966: The “Royal Albert Hall” Concert, exploiting the audio source’s long established status thanks to the famous bootleg with its false title when it was actually recorded at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester. Now, does anybody know another similar example of these sorts?
Ive had the dvd for years. AC/DC in their prime
Bought the VHS when it came out. If I recall, when it came time to put out a blu ray the audio was either lost or not good quality? Just shows how precise AC/DC play if they could dub audio from another show onto the Donnington video.
Awesome concert but I wish they didn't play the songs so fast during that tour! Kind of like Stones did in 81. Chris Slade is an excellent drummer but I prefer Phil Rudd.
Yes, I believe LIV was recorded at the Baltimore show.
I live a long way from home where I left the At Budokan: The Complete Concert 2CD’s, but it is said that they contain the same takes as heard on the original At Budokan album.
It is not necessarily easy to locate where and when these tracks were taken from. And they were heavily tweaked in the studios during the post-production. Go to my second post on the “Any Cheap Trick Fans Here?” thread (p.2).
[iorr.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-08-25 17:06 by RisingStone.
The details?
Got Live If You Want It stated on the original cover that it was recorded at the Royal Albert Hall, but it wasn't. The recordings originated from different venues in England.
Another example "Hiatt comes alive at Budkan" by John Hiatt. A wonderful live disc, but all recorded at gigs in America, I think....
Resotele
Pretty much re-recorded in the studio.
Note the beginning of "Show Me The Way" - it starts with the live guitar, then the studio guitar kicks in.
Still a great sounding album (I really like Humble Pie's "Shine On" live on FCA).
"No Anchovies, Please"
Wasn't that side 3 and 4 of Alive II?
Side 4 of Alive II is literally just studio recordings. Nothing hidden there. Alive and Alive II are basically studio creations manipulated to sound like live recordings. I've always thought Alive sounds far more genuine than Alive II. Alive does sound like, and I believe they did, use a live show as a basis and build off of it. On different occasions Eddie Kramer has said Ace Frehley's guitar is the only live element of it and then later that Peter Criss' drums are the only live element of the record. Alive II had way more blatant soundcheck recordings that they just added crowd noise to, and on a whole it sounds way faker, although its still not bad. Alive is definitely necessary because the songs sounds way better on there, live or otherwise, than they did on the respective studio albums. By Alive II, KISS had learned to record in the studio and the studio songs were good enough on their own, so there wasn't much Alive II had to add.
Talk about your favorite band.
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OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 25, 2020 01:06
Quote
RisingStone
Cheap Trick At Budokan not only elevated the group to stardom but also made the Budokan world famous and one of the most celebrated, iconic rock venues of all. However, the bulk of this album is actually from the Koseinenkin Kaikan (a 2,400 seater), Osaka, April 27, 1978, the previous date to the Budokan shows (April 28 and 30). The story goes that the producer found the tapes recorded at the Budokan unusable for the most part for some technical reason therefore opted for the Osaka recording, supposedly prepared for the backup. It has been no secret from the day it was released, but my general impression is that both record company and journalists have deliberately avoided mentioning this fact as much as possible to this day, presumably to keep the prestige that is attached to the album and the venue. I have never come across a track-by-track recording credit (the date and the venue on each track) anywhere, even in an “in-depth” feature of the album in a music magazine. Ever.
Above is the comment I recently posted on the “Any Cheap Trick Fans Here?” thread, which has spurred me to create a new thread.
I’m sure many of you IORR’ians are aware of an existence of a certain live album of which credits — venue, location, recording date(s) etc — are partially or entirely altered for some reason or other, deliberately or by mistake. I’m no expert of The Rolling Stones’ recording details, but know of some of the Paris-credited portions of Love You Live being actually from Toronto, L.A. and London, for example. There is even a case that an album is promoted by adopting the well-known fake information like Bob Dylan’s Live 1966: The “Royal Albert Hall” Concert, exploiting the audio source’s long established status thanks to the famous bootleg with its false title when it was actually recorded at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester. Now, does anybody know another similar example of these sorts?
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: August 25, 2020 01:21
The live Creedence album "The Concert" was originally called "The Royal Albert Hall Concert" until it was determined that it wasn't.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
hockenheim95
()
Date: August 25, 2020 01:37
Only some songs from ACDC's Live at Donnington Blu Ray are actually from Donnington. Most audio parts are from other concerts synced to the Donnington Video.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
jbwelda
()
Date: August 25, 2020 01:48
Got Live If You Want It contained studio tracks with phony audience overdubbed.
Get Yer Ya Yas Out had at least one track (Love in Vain?) recorded elsewhere than MSG.
Beach Boys Live or whatever it was, from the mid-60s, purportedly recorded at the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento (I believe they actually called it Veterans Auditorium or something on the album jacket despite putting a photo of the front of the place with Memorial Auditorium plainly visible) was actually recorded in the studio although apparently they DID record the audience noise in Sacramento.
This kind of shit was pretty common back in the days when it was very difficult or poorly understood how to make a decent live recording. Pretty much everyone did it to one degree or another.
Of course by the time of the Cheap Trick set etc it was much better understood how to record in a live venue so they didn't have that excuse. Mostly I think it was like you said: to ride a trend, in this case to be in Japan and particularly the fairly famous Budokan, where I think the Beatles performed and were filmed.
jb
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-08-25 01:50 by jbwelda.
Get Yer Ya Yas Out had at least one track (Love in Vain?) recorded elsewhere than MSG.
Beach Boys Live or whatever it was, from the mid-60s, purportedly recorded at the Memorial Auditorium in Sacramento (I believe they actually called it Veterans Auditorium or something on the album jacket despite putting a photo of the front of the place with Memorial Auditorium plainly visible) was actually recorded in the studio although apparently they DID record the audience noise in Sacramento.
This kind of shit was pretty common back in the days when it was very difficult or poorly understood how to make a decent live recording. Pretty much everyone did it to one degree or another.
Of course by the time of the Cheap Trick set etc it was much better understood how to record in a live venue so they didn't have that excuse. Mostly I think it was like you said: to ride a trend, in this case to be in Japan and particularly the fairly famous Budokan, where I think the Beatles performed and were filmed.
jb
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-08-25 01:50 by jbwelda.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
rebelhipi
()
Date: August 25, 2020 01:56
Didnt know that.Quote
hockenheim95
Only some songs from ACDC's Live at Donnington Blu Ray are actually from Donnington. Most audio parts are from other concerts synced to the Donnington Video.
Ive had the dvd for years. AC/DC in their prime
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
DGA35
()
Date: August 25, 2020 02:12
Quote
rebelhipiDidnt know that.Quote
hockenheim95
Only some songs from ACDC's Live at Donnington Blu Ray are actually from Donnington. Most audio parts are from other concerts synced to the Donnington Video.
Ive had the dvd for years. AC/DC in their prime
Bought the VHS when it came out. If I recall, when it came time to put out a blu ray the audio was either lost or not good quality? Just shows how precise AC/DC play if they could dub audio from another show onto the Donnington video.
Awesome concert but I wish they didn't play the songs so fast during that tour! Kind of like Stones did in 81. Chris Slade is an excellent drummer but I prefer Phil Rudd.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
DGA35
()
Date: August 25, 2020 02:15
Van Halen Right Here Right Now. Sammy said years later that he flew to Vancouver to re-record all the vocals for the album in studio because the original vocals weren't always in sync with the music. Guess it's so loud on stage sometimes you're not sure.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
rebelhipi
()
Date: August 25, 2020 03:38
Ive heard about the vhs having a different mix. Interesting. The vhs audio must be there somewhereQuote
DGA35Quote
rebelhipiDidnt know that.Quote
hockenheim95
Only some songs from ACDC's Live at Donnington Blu Ray are actually from Donnington. Most audio parts are from other concerts synced to the Donnington Video.
Ive had the dvd for years. AC/DC in their prime
Bought the VHS when it came out. If I recall, when it came time to put out a blu ray the audio was either lost or not good quality? Just shows how precise AC/DC play if they could dub audio from another show onto the Donnington video.
Awesome concert but I wish they didn't play the songs so fast during that tour! Kind of like Stones did in 81. Chris Slade is an excellent drummer but I prefer Phil Rudd.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
TheBadRabbit
()
Date: August 25, 2020 04:08
Quote
jbwelda
Get Yer Ya Yas Out had at least one track (Love in Vain?) recorded elsewhere than MSG.
jb
Yes, I believe LIV was recorded at the Baltimore show.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 25, 2020 07:25
Eric Clapton - Just One Night
I purchased the album when it was released. On the sleeve, it is printed as “Recorded ‘LIVE’ at the Budokan Theatre, Tokyo, December 1979”. As soon as I saw it, I went suspicious — “If it is ‘just one night’, why don’t they put the date?“
It took some years for me to lay my hands on the correct information that all of the tracks were recorded on December 4 except Tulsa Time, Early In The Morning and After Midnight — the latter three songs were recorded on December 3. After Midnight was played only on the 3rd but not on the 4th. ‘Just One Night’ that isn’t.
“The album was one show. We did two nights, and recorded both. I think they chose the one I didn’t like.” (Eric Clapton)
“When Eric was told about the recordings after the tour ended, he expressed a preference for the first night, but ultimately it was the majority of the second night that was chosen for the album.” (Marc Roberty)
Contrary to the above quotes, I actually remember reading an interview with Eric that was taken around the time the album was out, where he commented that the first night didn’t go down well as he was over-conscious of the live recording, but he was more relaxed on the second night hence a better performance. I’m inclining towards this.
I purchased the album when it was released. On the sleeve, it is printed as “Recorded ‘LIVE’ at the Budokan Theatre, Tokyo, December 1979”. As soon as I saw it, I went suspicious — “If it is ‘just one night’, why don’t they put the date?“
It took some years for me to lay my hands on the correct information that all of the tracks were recorded on December 4 except Tulsa Time, Early In The Morning and After Midnight — the latter three songs were recorded on December 3. After Midnight was played only on the 3rd but not on the 4th. ‘Just One Night’ that isn’t.
“The album was one show. We did two nights, and recorded both. I think they chose the one I didn’t like.” (Eric Clapton)
“When Eric was told about the recordings after the tour ended, he expressed a preference for the first night, but ultimately it was the majority of the second night that was chosen for the album.” (Marc Roberty)
Contrary to the above quotes, I actually remember reading an interview with Eric that was taken around the time the album was out, where he commented that the first night didn’t go down well as he was over-conscious of the live recording, but he was more relaxed on the second night hence a better performance. I’m inclining towards this.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RollingFreak
()
Date: August 25, 2020 08:43
Wouldn't Cheap Trick be easy to prove? They've re-released that Budokan album in expanded forms many different times. Wouldn't it be clear if those were different performances than the original record? Or is the purported "complete" Budokan shows also from this other concert and just using the venue name because its known?
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
ROLLINGSTONE
()
Date: August 25, 2020 11:07
Going at a slight tangent; one of the best ever 'off the cuff' live albums you'll ever hear is Slade Alive. Recorded over 2 nights with a raucous audience, great setlist of mainly covers and almost zero overdubs. One of my favourites.
"I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon."
"I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon."
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: August 25, 2020 13:16
What’d you expect from a band called cheap trick? 
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: August 25, 2020 14:11
Frampton Comes Alive
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 25, 2020 16:59
Quote
RollingFreak
Wouldn't Cheap Trick be easy to prove? They've re-released that Budokan album in expanded forms many different times. Wouldn't it be clear if those were different performances than the original record? Or is the purported "complete" Budokan shows also from this other concert and just using the venue name because its known?
I live a long way from home where I left the At Budokan: The Complete Concert 2CD’s, but it is said that they contain the same takes as heard on the original At Budokan album.
It is not necessarily easy to locate where and when these tracks were taken from. And they were heavily tweaked in the studios during the post-production. Go to my second post on the “Any Cheap Trick Fans Here?” thread (p.2).
[iorr.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-08-25 17:06 by RisingStone.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 25, 2020 17:01
Quote
Elmo Lewis
Frampton Comes Alive
The details?
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
resotele
()
Date: August 25, 2020 17:54
Quote
jbwelda
Got Live If You Want It contained studio tracks with phony audience overdubbed.
jb
Got Live If You Want It stated on the original cover that it was recorded at the Royal Albert Hall, but it wasn't. The recordings originated from different venues in England.
Another example "Hiatt comes alive at Budkan" by John Hiatt. A wonderful live disc, but all recorded at gigs in America, I think....
Resotele
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: August 25, 2020 18:20
Quote
RisingStoneQuote
Elmo Lewis
Frampton Comes Alive
The details?
Pretty much re-recorded in the studio.
Note the beginning of "Show Me The Way" - it starts with the live guitar, then the studio guitar kicks in.
Still a great sounding album (I really like Humble Pie's "Shine On" live on FCA).
"No Anchovies, Please"
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: August 25, 2020 18:22
I stand corrected (according to Peter himself):
On In the Studio with Redbeard, Frampton said "the album is mostly live except for the first verse of 'Something's Happening', the rhythm electric guitar on 'Show Me the Way' (the talk-box came out but the engineer forgot to move the mike) and the intro piano on 'I Wanna Go to the Sun' were fixed in the studio but the rest was all live (all the guitar solos, acoustic guitars, electric keyboards, drums, bass guitar and rest of vocals) which was unheard of at the time".[8]
On In the Studio with Redbeard, Frampton said "the album is mostly live except for the first verse of 'Something's Happening', the rhythm electric guitar on 'Show Me the Way' (the talk-box came out but the engineer forgot to move the mike) and the intro piano on 'I Wanna Go to the Sun' were fixed in the studio but the rest was all live (all the guitar solos, acoustic guitars, electric keyboards, drums, bass guitar and rest of vocals) which was unheard of at the time".[8]
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RollingFreak
()
Date: August 25, 2020 18:32
Kiss Alive is completely manufactured in the studio.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 25, 2020 19:33
I think the studio tweaking, i.e. amending bum notes, filling sound drops, overdub of some instruments, retaking vocals etc, is tolerated to some degree, sometimes necessary, considering the nature of live recording where the unexpected and undesirable are prone to happen. What matters is how much it is done.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
Bungo
()
Date: August 25, 2020 19:47
As someone posted, "this was very common back in the day". I agree.
But, as long as the music's actually live and good I couldn't care less where it was recorded or what the title is.
But, as long as the music's actually live and good I couldn't care less where it was recorded or what the title is.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
Paddy
()
Date: August 25, 2020 20:13
Live like a suicide- Guns N Roses. All studio.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RollingFreak
()
Date: August 25, 2020 20:20
Even how much is done is debatable. Honestly, I think KISS Alive is a good example. Its basically all a studio creation but it works. That WAS what a KISS show sounded like at the time, and there wasn't a way to truly capture that live. You had to enhance it and basically create it, but its true of what their shows sounded like even if it wasn't recorded live at one of their shows. I never held that against them, although I thought lying about it for so long was dumb, and it didn't work nearly as well on Alive II. But having what we have in Alive is truly better than any truly live recording could have offered.Quote
RisingStone
I think the studio tweaking, i.e. amending bum notes, filling sound drops, overdub of some instruments, retaking vocals etc, is tolerated to some degree, sometimes necessary, considering the nature of live recording where the unexpected and undesirable are prone to happen. What matters is how much it is done.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 25, 2020 20:26
Quote
RollingFreak
Kiss Alive is completely manufactured in the studio.
Wasn't that side 3 and 4 of Alive II?
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RollingFreak
()
Date: August 25, 2020 21:25
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
RollingFreak
Kiss Alive is completely manufactured in the studio.
Wasn't that side 3 and 4 of Alive II?
Side 4 of Alive II is literally just studio recordings. Nothing hidden there. Alive and Alive II are basically studio creations manipulated to sound like live recordings. I've always thought Alive sounds far more genuine than Alive II. Alive does sound like, and I believe they did, use a live show as a basis and build off of it. On different occasions Eddie Kramer has said Ace Frehley's guitar is the only live element of it and then later that Peter Criss' drums are the only live element of the record. Alive II had way more blatant soundcheck recordings that they just added crowd noise to, and on a whole it sounds way faker, although its still not bad. Alive is definitely necessary because the songs sounds way better on there, live or otherwise, than they did on the respective studio albums. By Alive II, KISS had learned to record in the studio and the studio songs were good enough on their own, so there wasn't much Alive II had to add.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 26, 2020 00:28
Speaking of Kiss’s live album...some of the Budokan shows (April 1, 2 [two shows] and 4, 1977) of their first Japan tour were recorded by Eddie Kramer and proposed to be released as a double album under the title, Rock And Roll Party In Tokyo. Despite being advertised in music magazines, the plan was shelved at the last minute in favor of releasing Alive ll instead, which contained a few tracks diverted from the Budokan show (April 2, probably the late show), i.e. Beth, God Of Thunder and I Want You. I sometimes wonder how it would have affected the group’s history if the album had been released as announced. You’ll never know.
BTW I am an eyewitness of Kiss’s first ever show in Japan, March 24, 1977, Osaka. The venue? Koseinenkin Kaikan...
I remember a horde of teenagers, boys and girls in Kiss makeup, and a fire engine on standby by the side of the venue just in case. I’m not kidding.
BTW I am an eyewitness of Kiss’s first ever show in Japan, March 24, 1977, Osaka. The venue? Koseinenkin Kaikan...
I remember a horde of teenagers, boys and girls in Kiss makeup, and a fire engine on standby by the side of the venue just in case. I’m not kidding.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
ds1984
()
Date: August 26, 2020 14:58
Eurythmics Live 1983 - 1989.
More or less overdubbed live but some recording location and or date wrong.
For example, "The Miracle of Love" is incorrectly credited as recorded in Paris, September 1989, though :
Actually recorded in Sydney, Australia on 14 February 1987.
More or less overdubbed live but some recording location and or date wrong.
For example, "The Miracle of Love" is incorrectly credited as recorded in Paris, September 1989, though :
- [*] "The Miracle of Love" was not part of the 1989 setlist
[*] they did not play in Paris in September
Actually recorded in Sydney, Australia on 14 February 1987.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 26, 2020 15:04
Quote
ds1984
Eurythmics Live 1983 - 1989.
More or less overdubbed live but some recording location and or date wrong.
For example, "The Miracle of Love" is incorrectly credited as recorded in Paris, September 1989, though :[*] "The Miracle of Love" was not part of the 1989 setlist
[*] they did not play in Paris in September
Actually recorded in Sydney, Australia on 14 February 1987.
Re: OT: ‘Live at Budokan’ that isn’t
Posted by:
RisingStone
()
Date: August 26, 2020 18:13
Hendrix - In The West
On the original release of this live album in 1972, Little Wing and Vooodoo Child (Slight Return) were credited as recorded at the Sports Arena, San Diego, May 24, 1969, but actually these are from the Royal Albert Hall, London, February 24, 1969 — presumably on purpose to evade the disputable copyright situation surrounding the ownership of the recordings of the London show. When Experience Hendrix re-released the album in 2011, Little Wing was replaced with one from Winterland, Oct 12, 1968, so was Voodoo Child from the aforementioned San Diego show.
(*I don’t own the re-released album but I heard the San Diego date being miscredited as on May 25 — Hendrix played in San Jose that day. History repeats itself.)
On the original release of this live album in 1972, Little Wing and Vooodoo Child (Slight Return) were credited as recorded at the Sports Arena, San Diego, May 24, 1969, but actually these are from the Royal Albert Hall, London, February 24, 1969 — presumably on purpose to evade the disputable copyright situation surrounding the ownership of the recordings of the London show. When Experience Hendrix re-released the album in 2011, Little Wing was replaced with one from Winterland, Oct 12, 1968, so was Voodoo Child from the aforementioned San Diego show.
(*I don’t own the re-released album but I heard the San Diego date being miscredited as on May 25 — Hendrix played in San Jose that day. History repeats itself.)
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