Interesting quote from the LA Times, not sure if this has been posted already.

Jimmy was an extremely talented man. His main gift I think was his ability to get grooves. Which for a band like the Stones is very important. Look at the difference between ‘Beggar’s Banquet’ and ‘Satanic Majesties.’ He put them right back on the rail. So he was quote influential then and came up with all sorts of lovely ideas for them. In fact, that’s him playing the cowbell at the beginning of ‘Honky Tonk Woman.’ He sets it up. He was somewhat of a frail individual and they got to him like they got to everybody. Sooner or later you lose your mind. By the time we got to ‘Exile on Main St.’ they weren’t really listening to him anymore. So he felt a bit like a fifth wheel. He was being squeezed out a bit and I was watchin’ that go down.

Jimmy was mad keen and sort of halfway in control of ‘Sticky Fingers,’ but his grip was slipping a bit. On ‘Exile,’ they sort of stopped listening to him and by the time we got to ‘Goat’s Head Soup,’ it was like he wasn’t there. That was a very tough record to make. I love ‘Winter’ from that.

You know, Mick and Keith back then could be pretty [expletive] ruthless. It’s a defense mechanism, because people forget how big a deal they were. So everybody and their uncle is trying to grab the hem of their coat. They always want something, you know. ‘Listen to this song. You should really do this song.’ ‘I’ve got this great idea for a hotel. Give me the money.’ Constantly. And the dope dealers and the groupies. So I guess that hardens you to a certain extent. I know it has to me a little bit.

On ‘Exile,’ Keith would play after the fact. We’d have some time and Keith would say, ‘I want to re-do the bass.’ In front of Bill, you know. They were really cruel.

Drew

After Exile,, the only albums that sound really good are Black n Blue and Tatoo You. Goats head, IORR,Undercover, and Steel Wheels, have crappy sound. Beatles songs from 1964 sound better

When looking at what they came up with for EOMS in 1971, the reality of it compared to the myth, considering how Jimmy Miller was being treated, supposedly, perhaps it's a wee bit of insite as to the role he had with STICKY FINGERS and the recordings for it that wound up on EOMS:


Written and recorded for EOMS in France:
Casino Boogie
Following The River
Happy
I'm Not Signifying
Pass The Wine
Plundered My Soul
Rip This Joint
Rocks Off
Soul Survivor
Ventilator Blues
nzentgraf

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Taylor1
After Exile,, the only albums that sound really good are Black n Blue and Tatoo You. Goats head, IORR,Undercover, and Steel Wheels, have crappy sound. Beatles songs from 1964 sound better

I've always thought that SOME GIRLS sounds the worst of all their albums - too bright, no bottom end at all - but that's got nothing to do with the producer, in regard to you saying how they 'sound really good'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-06 20:53 by GasLightStreet.

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GasLightStreet

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Taylor1
After Exile,, the only albums that sound really good are Black n Blue and Tatoo You. Goats head, IORR,Undercover, and Steel Wheels, have crappy sound. Beatles songs from 1964 sound better

I've always thought that SOME GIRLS sounds the worst of all their albums - too bright, no bottom end at all - but that's got nothing to do with the producer, in regard to you saying how they 'sound really good'.

The worst? I always thought that distinction went to GHS. Other albums sounded good, there just wasn't enough quality content. Right off the first time I heard the complete Some Girls album on the radio, late at night, I noticed it had a unified sound. Like they made the album and then threw it in some sort of sonic blender. It sounds like it's twirling out of an organ Leslie speaker. I think that's why songs on the Bonus Disc don't sound like they belong. They didn't get the treatment.

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GasLightStreet

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Taylor1
After Exile,, the only albums that sound really good are Black n Blue and Tatoo You. Goats head, IORR,Undercover, and Steel Wheels, have crappy sound. Beatles songs from 1964 sound better

I've always thought that SOME GIRLS sounds the worst of all their albums - too bright, no bottom end at all - but that's got nothing to do with the producer, in regard to you saying how they 'sound really good'.

Is it the engineers?Because Imo most Stones’ albums have mediocre sound.Black N Blue sounds 100 times better than IORR,and still doesn’t sound as good as a lot of other artists recordings

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24FPS

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GasLightStreet

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Taylor1
After Exile,, the only albums that sound really good are Black n Blue and Tatoo You. Goats head, IORR,Undercover, and Steel Wheels, have crappy sound. Beatles songs from 1964 sound better

I've always thought that SOME GIRLS sounds the worst of all their albums - too bright, no bottom end at all - but that's got nothing to do with the producer, in regard to you saying how they 'sound really good'.

The worst? I always thought that distinction went to GHS. Other albums sounded good, there just wasn't enough quality content. Right off the first time I heard the complete Some Girls album on the radio, late at night, I noticed it had a unified sound. Like they made the album and then threw it in some sort of sonic blender. It sounds like it's twirling out of an organ Leslie speaker. I think that's why songs on the Bonus Disc don't sound like they belong. They didn't get the treatment.

That's why I said that I've always thought SOME GIRLS sounds the worst. It's too brittle, to tinny, too high end sounding. In contrast, EMOTIONAL RESCUE sounds incredible - it has some ass to it.

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Taylor1

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GasLightStreet

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Taylor1
After Exile,, the only albums that sound really good are Black n Blue and Tatoo You. Goats head, IORR,Undercover, and Steel Wheels, have crappy sound. Beatles songs from 1964 sound better

I've always thought that SOME GIRLS sounds the worst of all their albums - too bright, no bottom end at all - but that's got nothing to do with the producer, in regard to you saying how they 'sound really good'.

Is it the engineers?Because Imo most Stones’ albums have mediocre sound.Black N Blue sounds 100 times better than IORR,and still doesn’t sound as good as a lot of other artists recordings

No. It's the mix. When things are EQed etc.

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GasLightStreet

That's why I said that I've always thought SOME GIRLS sounds the worst. It's too brittle, to tinny, too high end sounding. In contrast, EMOTIONAL RESCUE sounds incredible - it has some ass to it.

Well put!

+1

Drew

I think it is the engineer, he is in control of how the basic tracks are laid. Mixing takes whats there and makes the final product from it. As I have said before, you cannot mix in what is not there. So it comes down to the engineer how the final product sounds, although that can change, usually for the worst, during the mixing phase.

And comparing something to the first four beatle albums is a bit of a straw man: imo the first four Beatle albums sounded fantastic especially on their native Parlophone pressing. They were using one of the worlds most advanced recording studio (EMI), the worlds best engineers (though they didn't really know how to record rock music) and one of the worlds established geniuses, G Martin. Of course they sound good. The stones never approached that level of recording quality.

And I think IORR is one of the worst sounding records ever. There is something about it, it sounds out of phase to me, the instruments have way too much separation or something, there is little blending of sound. It sounds way artificial to my ears.

To me, The Rolling Stones Now and probably Beggars Banquet, in their original UK pressing, sound the best of their entire catalogue. Aftermath too, with some exceptions. Other records have better material it could be argued, and I might agree, but as far as well rounded sound, those are my favorites. And Sticky Fingers sounded a little sterile to my ears but its right up there with the best as well. Again I am referring to first release UK vinyl here, I think that variable makes a lot of difference. The USA pressing and other European pressings never held a candle to the original Decca/RSR releases.

The problem with subjective sound quality judgements though is that they depend so much on the playback equipment and the actual source being played. And of course personal preferences. I myself prefer well rounded sound with solid well dampened bass and individually miked drums, and a good bit of stereo separation with the rest of the instruments, but the bass and any organ mixed almost mono in the final mix. If the cymbals are hissing, you need better microphone on them, that sort of detail...and don't get me started on distorted hissing "S"s.

jb

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jbwelda
I think it is the engineer, he is in control of how the basic tracks are laid. Mixing takes whats there and makes the final product from it. As I have said before, you cannot mix in what is not there. So it comes down to the engineer how the final product sounds, although that can change, usually for the worst, during the mixing phase.


The problem with subjective sound quality judgements though is that they depend so much on the playback equipment and the actual source being played. And of course personal preferences. I myself prefer well rounded sound with solid well dampened bass and individually miked drums, and a good bit of stereo separation with the rest of the instruments, but the bass and any organ mixed almost mono in the final mix. If the cymbals are hissing, you need better microphone on them, that sort of detail...and don't get me started on distorted hissing "S"s.

jb

Listen to Start Me Up - it's a SOME GIRLS sessions song. Hang Fire and Black Limo were started for SG... they don't sound anything like songs on SG because of... the mix.

It's not the engineer recording, it's the mixing, and sometimes, to a point, the mastering, but mostly the mixing. I'm going to guess that they don't EQ to print, it's as flat as possible to print, so it's not the recording. Chris Kimsey mixed SG, Bob Clearmountain mixed TATTOO YOU.


I've listened to SG on loads of different systems (as well as everything else) and it's consistently bad sound wise.

Its actually one of my favorite Stones records and I don't find the sound to be bad. But its not like its great or anything either, I felt at the time of release that it was a good sound for those particular songs and the punk era they were possibly trying to evoke/copy.

And I agree about the mix making songs sound consistent and coherent as a package. But to me that is the secondary consideration, and most albums don't really sound consistent, some do, some don't and some don't even try. Part of that is the continuity of the process though...songs recorded at same studio with same equipment can sound different even if mixed by the same mixing engineer at different studios.

That the songs you cite sound similar is to me evidence they were recorded and mixed in the same contiguous time by the same guy at the same studio. But I am not an expert in the details of Stones recording sessions to even know if that is a fact or not, just an assumption I draw from the songs and your identifying them by session.

By the way, thanks for the clarity.

jb

...not sure what you guys are talking about...I play SG and consistently its the only album I can play start to finish and listen to every song and it feels fresh...

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Rip This
...not sure what you guys are talking about...I play SG and consistently its the only album I can play start to finish and listen to every song and it feels fresh...

The tone of the album - it's very high end, very tinny. It lacks low end, bottom. It's crispy.

Listen to the sound of EMOTIONAL RESCUE and TATTOO YOU and you'll understand.

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jbwelda
Its actually one of my favorite Stones records and I don't find the sound to be bad. But its not like its great or anything either, I felt at the time of release that it was a good sound for those particular songs and the punk era they were possibly trying to evoke/copy.

And I agree about the mix making songs sound consistent and coherent as a package. But to me that is the secondary consideration, and most albums don't really sound consistent, some do, some don't and some don't even try. Part of that is the continuity of the process though...songs recorded at same studio with same equipment can sound different even if mixed by the same mixing engineer at different studios.

That the songs you cite sound similar is to me evidence they were recorded and mixed in the same contiguous time by the same guy at the same studio. But I am not an expert in the details of Stones recording sessions to even know if that is a fact or not, just an assumption I draw from the songs and your identifying them by session.

By the way, thanks for the clarity.

jb

SOME GIRLS has a distinct sound. EMOTIONAL RESCUE has a distinct sound. BLACK AND BLUE has a distinct sound. GHS has a distinct sound. IORR has a distinct sound. UNDERCOVER has a distinct sound. A lot of their albums sound different, the exceptions being that LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE sound the same.

The way Bob Clearmountain mixed the songs for TATTOO YOU, if you didn't know as we know now that 2 are from 1972, 2 are from 1975, 1 from 1977 (Start Me Up) and the rest from 1979, with the biggest differences sound wise being Charlie's China crash in some songs - you'd never known it was all recorded on different equipment!



(The quality of the production) was done in the mix, you mix it brighter with more eq and much more drum kick and a high-range on the high-hat. Then you screw around with the bass until it really tightens up. Obviously our engineer Chris Kimsey had some practical ideas for the sound, but that was influenced by what the band wanted.

- Mick Jagger, 1983

[timeisonourside.com]

>LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE sound the same.

Not to me they don't, at least not in their original release. Sticky Fingers has excellent dynamic range, the other two lag far behind, particularly LIB.

jb

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jbwelda
>LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE sound the same.

Not to me they don't, at least not in their original release. Sticky Fingers has excellent dynamic range, the other two lag far behind, particularly LIB.

jb

Sonically they're very close together. People say EOMS is muddy, I've never heard that.

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GasLightStreet
When looking at what they came up with for EOMS in 1971, the reality of it compared to the myth, considering how Jimmy Miller was being treated, supposedly, perhaps it's a wee bit of insite as to the role he had with STICKY FINGERS and the recordings for it that wound up on EOMS:


Written and recorded for EOMS in France:
Casino Boogie
Following The River
Happy
I'm Not Signifying
Pass The Wine
Plundered My Soul
Rip This Joint
Rocks Off
Soul Survivor
Ventilator Blues
nzentgraf

Torn and Frayed was recorded in France according to Jim Price. He tells a detailed account of playing organ during the initial tracking session.

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TravelinMan

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GasLightStreet
When looking at what they came up with for EOMS in 1971, the reality of it compared to the myth, considering how Jimmy Miller was being treated, supposedly, perhaps it's a wee bit of insite as to the role he had with STICKY FINGERS and the recordings for it that wound up on EOMS:


Written and recorded for EOMS in France:
Casino Boogie
Following The River
Happy
I'm Not Signifying
Pass The Wine
Plundered My Soul
Rip This Joint
Rocks Off
Soul Survivor
Ventilator Blues
nzentgraf

Torn and Frayed was recorded in France according to Jim Price. He tells a detailed account of playing organ during the initial tracking session.

Tumbling Dice was basically rewritten as well.

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TravelinMan

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GasLightStreet
When looking at what they came up with for EOMS in 1971, the reality of it compared to the myth, considering how Jimmy Miller was being treated, supposedly, perhaps it's a wee bit of insite as to the role he had with STICKY FINGERS and the recordings for it that wound up on EOMS:


Written and recorded for EOMS in France:
Casino Boogie
Following The River
Happy
I'm Not Signifying
Pass The Wine
Plundered My Soul
Rip This Joint
Rocks Off
Soul Survivor
Ventilator Blues
nzentgraf

Torn and Frayed was recorded in France according to Jim Price. He tells a detailed account of playing organ during the initial tracking session.

The published info I have found all says the same thing: recorded in Los Angeles in 1971.

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan

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GasLightStreet
When looking at what they came up with for EOMS in 1971, the reality of it compared to the myth, considering how Jimmy Miller was being treated, supposedly, perhaps it's a wee bit of insite as to the role he had with STICKY FINGERS and the recordings for it that wound up on EOMS:


Written and recorded for EOMS in France:
Casino Boogie
Following The River
Happy
I'm Not Signifying
Pass The Wine
Plundered My Soul
Rip This Joint
Rocks Off
Soul Survivor
Ventilator Blues
nzentgraf

Torn and Frayed was recorded in France according to Jim Price. He tells a detailed account of playing organ during the initial tracking session.

The published info I have found all says the same thing: recorded in Los Angeles in 1971.

From the Appleford book, under “Torn And Frayed”:

“There were a lot of rooms and all the different instruments were set-up in separate rooms,” says Price. “I went into that room, picked up the headphones and started listening, and just started playing the organ. It was just for fun. They did a bunch of takes on it, and I never knew that they had used it until I saw the record.”

I think it was originally from Guitar World magazine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-07 23:03 by TravelinMan.

The beauty of Tattoo You is mainly down to Bob Clearmountain's mixing. Taking a bundle of recordings going back throughout a decade and making them sound like they were done in the same sessions. Tattoo You is pretty much The Stones' Odds and Sods.imo

"I'll be in my basement room with a needle and a spoon."

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ROLLINGSTONE
The beauty of Tattoo You is mainly down to Bob Clearmountain's mixing.

If the mixing is responsible for that album's great sound, then it's worth looking at who was behind the mixing for other Stones albums, given the variation in how they sound. I went to AllMusic.com and found the following.

BB, LIB, Sticky, Exile - no "mixing" credit
GHS - Andy Johns
IORR - Keith Harwood, Glyn Johns
B&B - no "mixing" credit
Some Girls - Dave Jordan, Chris Kimsey
ER - Brad Samuelsohn (audio engineer, "remixing")
TY - Bob Clearmountain, Gary Lyons
Undercover - Chris Kimsey
Dirty Work - no "mixing" "credit" (ha!)
SW - Michael Brauer, Chris Kimsey, Christopher Marc Potter, plus two mixing assistants (too many cooks?)
VL - Bob Clearmountain, Don Smith, plus four "mixing assistants"
Bridges - Bob Clearmountain, Ed Cherney, Pierre de Beauport, Rob Fraboni, Wally Gagel, Tom Lord-Alge, Richard Lowe, Danny Saber, John Sorenson, John X. Volaitis, plus SIX mixing assistants (wayyyyyy too many cooks ...)
Bigger Bang - no "mixing" credit
B&L - no "mixing" credit

Drew

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drewmaster

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ROLLINGSTONE
The beauty of Tattoo You is mainly down to Bob Clearmountain's mixing.

If the mixing is responsible for that album's great sound, then it's worth looking at who was behind the mixing for other Stones albums, given the variation in how they sound. I went to AllMusic.com and found the following.

BB, LIB, Sticky, Exile - no "mixing" credit
GHS - Andy Johns
IORR - Keith Harwood, Glyn Johns
B&B - no "mixing" credit
Some Girls - Dave Jordan, Chris Kimsey
ER - Brad Samuelsohn (audio engineer, "remixing")
TY - Bob Clearmountain, Gary Lyons
Undercover - Chris Kimsey
Dirty Work - no "mixing" "credit" (ha!)
SW - Michael Brauer, Chris Kimsey, Christopher Marc Potter, plus two mixing assistants (too many cooks?)
VL - Bob Clearmountain, Don Smith, plus four "mixing assistants"
Bridges - Bob Clearmountain, Ed Cherney, Pierre de Beauport, Rob Fraboni, Wally Gagel, Tom Lord-Alge, Richard Lowe, Danny Saber, John Sorenson, John X. Volaitis, plus SIX mixing assistants (wayyyyyy too many cooks ...)
Bigger Bang - no "mixing" credit
B&L - no "mixing" credit

Drew

I think some of those albums have the mixing engineer just listed under "engineering". For instance, Joe Zagarino and Andy Johns mixed Exile. I believe Eddie Kramer and Glyn Johns mixed Beggar's and Glyn Johns mixed Let It Bleed. Glyn and Andy Johns both mixed Sticky Fingers, I believe. Glyn Johns also mixed "Fingerprint File" on Rock N Roll.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-08 19:13 by TravelinMan.

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ROLLINGSTONE
The beauty of Tattoo You is mainly down to Bob Clearmountain's mixing. Taking a bundle of recordings going back throughout a decade and making them sound like they were done in the same sessions. Tattoo You is pretty much The Stones' Odds and Sods.imo

Yes. Although with the lack of credits they really tried to disguise that when it was released.

I wish they would have let Bob Clearmountain re-mix the entire Goat's Head Soup album for this upcoming re-release.

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drewmaster

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ROLLINGSTONE
The beauty of Tattoo You is mainly down to Bob Clearmountain's mixing.

If the mixing is responsible for that album's great sound, then it's worth looking at who was behind the mixing for other Stones albums, given the variation in how they sound. I went to AllMusic.com and found the following.

BB, LIB, Sticky, Exile - no "mixing" credit
GHS - Andy Johns
IORR - Keith Harwood, Glyn Johns
B&B - no "mixing" credit
Some Girls - Dave Jordan, Chris Kimsey
ER - Brad Samuelsohn (audio engineer, "remixing")
TY - Bob Clearmountain, Gary Lyons
Undercover - Chris Kimsey
Dirty Work - no "mixing" "credit" (ha!)
SW - Michael Brauer, Chris Kimsey, Christopher Marc Potter, plus two mixing assistants (too many cooks?)
VL - Bob Clearmountain, Don Smith, plus four "mixing assistants"
Bridges - Bob Clearmountain, Ed Cherney, Pierre de Beauport, Rob Fraboni, Wally Gagel, Tom Lord-Alge, Richard Lowe, Danny Saber, John Sorenson, John X. Volaitis, plus SIX mixing assistants (wayyyyyy too many cooks ...)
Bigger Bang - no "mixing" credit
B&L - no "mixing" credit

Drew

discogs.com has the correct credits when available. allmusic.com and a few others are complete bunk.

Agreed that Black And Blue and Emotional Rescue sound better than Some Girls. Funny, because Some Girls has better songs on it.

I also agree that Tattoo You was done really well. It sounds great and has great songs on it. That's why I like it more than SG these days.

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LieB
Agreed that Black And Blue and Emotional Rescue sound better than Some Girls. Funny, because Some Girls has better songs on it.

I also agree that Tattoo You was done really well. It sounds great and has great songs on it. That's why I like it more than SG these days.

Right on!

For some reason some people don't understand sound versus whatever, better songs etc. ER may not be critically anywhere near as good as SG but it sure does sound a lot better!

And that's the shame of it.

jb

I’m not a big fan of Andy Johns particularlyor Chris Kimsey’swork with the Stones.I think it’s pretty mediocre .I like Clearmountain and some of Keith Harwood’swork.