Tattoo You is in Germany's Midweek Album Top-100 on #3 - [www.MTV.de] .

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Mathijs

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Zindy

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Mathijs
...The backing track of this new 2021 release of SMU is available in tape traders circles...

Stop pretending you don't have it. When have you ever shared anything here, you can do it now. Or tell your friend Remco to share it.

Remco hasn't taken any orders from me in 25 years.

Mathijs

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GasLightStreet
...
Here.
...

GasLightStreet, not that well-known one. Two more reggae versions exist, one of them turned into the 2021 Early Version. Mathijs elegantly avoided the subject (he has both versions). Maybe you can ask Mathijs if he would like to share, obviously I didn't succeed.

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glimmertwin1

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doitywoik
....
Listening to the 1994 Virgin CD right afterwards was a real relief: what a clear, well-balanced plastic (in the sense of plasticity) mix! I guess that for the time being, this will have been not only the first but also the last listening of the 2021 mix (other than for analytical purposes, maybe). Unfortunately I can't compare with the original LP from back in 1981 because my turntable's not working. (Also, the LP got quite some spins over the years/decades, so possibly suffered a bit from that, too.)

I can't compare to the CBS or Japan SHM versions because I don't have them. Otherwiser, the Stones CDs t
...

You're absolutely right. If you have the Virgin CD you don' t need the CBS-CD or the fancy japanese stuff.

Sure, if you do not mind slight compression, bass and treble boost and gently shaved peaks due to clipping .

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Zindy

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Mathijs

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Zindy

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Mathijs
...The backing track of this new 2021 release of SMU is available in tape traders circles...

Stop pretending you don't have it. When have you ever shared anything here, you can do it now. Or tell your friend Remco to share it.

Remco hasn't taken any orders from me in 25 years.

Mathijs

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GasLightStreet
...
Here.
...

GasLightStreet, not that well-known one. Two more reggae versions exist, one of them turned into the 2021 Early Version. Mathijs elegantly avoided the subject (he has both versions). Maybe you can ask Mathijs if he would like to share, obviously I didn't succeed.

It sounds the same as the one on the deluxe.

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman


According to Kimsey this version is from the BAB-sessions.

That's not about the deluxe version, though, it simply says 'first reggae version' or whatever as in that's when they started working on it. This is an earlier take than the LP take from 1977.

Have you read the book that came with the superdeluxe-set? Kimsey is saying that this version, on LP2, is indeed from the BAB-sessions. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of the quote later.

I got the 2 CD set.

Finally, Start Me Up (Early Version) demonstrates the reggae groove that might have kickstarted TATTOO YOU... if Chris Kimsey had not ignored Keith's instruction to erase the rockier version.

Also...

First played during the BLACK AND BLUE sessions... it was revisited... in Paris. "It was more of a reggae song" Chris Kimsey remembers.

"That take on TATTOO YOU was the only one that was a complete rock and roll take," Mick recalls.

Yay!
I just got a message from amazon france that my deluxe box set is been shipped!

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman


According to Kimsey this version is from the BAB-sessions.

That's not about the deluxe version, though, it simply says 'first reggae version' or whatever as in that's when they started working on it. This is an earlier take than the LP take from 1977.

Have you read the book that came with the superdeluxe-set? Kimsey is saying that this version, on LP2, is indeed from the BAB-sessions. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of the quote later.

This version is most definitely from the Some Girls sessions. In the credits it lists Kimsey as the engineer for the song, which he most certainly wasn't for Black and Blue. It also says Simon Kirke plays percussion. Remember, he was present at the Some Girls sessions, playing congas on "Shattered" and most likely plays congas on this version as well. There is no tape circulating of "Start Me Up" from the Black and Blue sessions. For all we know it could have just been the riff played briefly in the studio one day during those sessions and not put onto tape. 3 early versions of SMU are from the Some Girls sessions while there's one with earlier vocals that comes from the 1980-81 sessions for Tattoo You.

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Four Stone Walls

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman


According to Kimsey this version is from the BAB-sessions.

That's not about the deluxe version, though, it simply says 'first reggae version' or whatever as in that's when they started working on it. This is an earlier take than the LP take from 1977.

Have you read the book that came with the superdeluxe-set? Kimsey is saying that this version, on LP2, is indeed from the BAB-sessions. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of the quote later.

Kinsey says it's from 1975 sessions. Mathis says no such version now exists and all(?) versions we have are from '78. ( Why not '77 Mathis?)
So who is right? I think Kinsey.


I noticed from the Trouble's a Coming thread that Mathis is certain it is from 1978 ( again, why not '77?) because of Keith's guitar and amp set-up. Sounds knowledgeable and plausible. Mathis knows his equipment stuff.
But Kinsey says it's from '79 Bahamas sessions.
To me TAC does not have the same vibe or sound as other ER tracks so. I have, until now at least been inclined to believe Mathis.
Who is right?

It's very plausible Troubles A' Comin is from the Some Girls sessions. Assistant Engineer Barry Sage is credited on the song. He only worked with the Stones for two albums, Some Girls and Tattoo You. I don't believe he was there for Emotional Rescue but I'd have to check the credits on the album. It's A Lie credits him as well, so that also may very well be from the Some Girls sessions and not Emotional Rescue.

The more I listen, and I am listening often, the more and more I reckon the Lost and Found disc would have made a great mid 80’s Stones album in its full without the alternate Start me Up. It’s fantastic.

The best disc of outtakes The Stones have released on any of their Deluxe issues. No real dud.

The ONLY issue, has it been released as an album after the Start me Up / Tattoo You juggernaut, would have been the lack of a big hit single on it.

Rod

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bitusa2012
The more I listen, and I am listening often, the more and more I reckon the Lost and Found disc would have made a great mid 80’s Stones album in its full without the alternate Start me Up. It’s fantastic.

The best disc of outtakes The Stones have released on any of their Deluxe issues. No real dud.

The ONLY issue, has it been released as an album after the Start me Up / Tattoo You juggernaut, would have been the lack of a big hit single on it.

That didn't curtail any of their other subsequent releases!

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treaclefingers

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bitusa2012
The more I listen, and I am listening often, the more and more I reckon the Lost and Found disc would have made a great mid 80’s Stones album in its full without the alternate Start me Up. It’s fantastic.

The best disc of outtakes The Stones have released on any of their Deluxe issues. No real dud.

The ONLY issue, has it been released as an album after the Start me Up / Tattoo You juggernaut, would have been the lack of a big hit single on it.

That didn't curtail any of their other subsequent releases!

True but I think they may have thought that She Was Hot and/or Undercover itself would be big. Especially the former which has a similar sonic sound to it as Start me Up. To my ears anyway.

Rod



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 06:47 by bitusa2012.

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bitusa2012

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treaclefingers

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bitusa2012
The more I listen, and I am listening often, the more and more I reckon the Lost and Found disc would have made a great mid 80’s Stones album in its full without the alternate Start me Up. It’s fantastic.

The best disc of outtakes The Stones have released on any of their Deluxe issues. No real dud.

The ONLY issue, has it been released as an album after the Start me Up / Tattoo You juggernaut, would have been the lack of a big hit single on it.

That didn't curtail any of their other subsequent releases!

True but I think they may have thought that She Was Hot and/or Undercover itself would be big. Especially the former which has a similar sonic sound to it as Start me Up. To my ears anyway.

Yeah, at the moment I think that this LOST & FOUND is the best Stones album since... yeah.. TATTOO YOU, but the idea that it would have been released after TATTOO YOU instead of, say, UNDERCOVER or DIRTY WORK... Well, that's a fascinating idea, since technically that would have been possible, but I don't think it would have worked. I mean, now it might sound being a graet album relaesed in mid-80's, but at the time back then I don't think it would have been hailed that much.

First of all, the idea of them releasing just another album of old rejects again would have made them look a bit desperate and back then they still were considered largely a living and breathing band that supposed to create something novel. TATTOO YOU was a happy expection to a rule, but another sort of similar album would have looked pretty bad for their image as a creative unit.

Secondly, and more importantly, it was the 80's, man... TATTOO YOU was a pretty retro, 70's sounding album (compared, for example, to SOME GIRLS and EMOTIONAL RESCUE), which hitted the jack pot at the right time, since the punk rebellion had just died out and the 80's weren't really happened yet. But by UNDERCOVER and especially DIRTY WORK the whole atmosphere had changed dramatically, and anything pointing at old 70's or even 60's - classic days of rock - was passe. The Stones - well, Mick that is - didn't want to sound like old farts, and that what releasing old music would have been like... They weren't ready to be an oldies act quite yet, but still thinking they could attract a new audience by sounding relevant musically still (probably some of their old audience also still were not that old and stubborn that anything should sound like in the past and anything contemporary is shit). Didn't work out that well, but still even though UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK have not aged very well, they weren't such failures as many people nowadays seem to think. For example, for a just born fan like myself back then - being hooked by TATTOO YOU - I thought it was natural that didn't try to repeat their old achievements, but updated their doings for contemporary sounds and demands. That what they've been doing all of their career. True that they - and Mick as a solo act - didn't succeed so well then as previously, but you know, that's what they still then were like, an evolving band, not a nostalgia act.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 11:16 by Doxa.

<but at the time back then I don't think it would have been hailed that much>

Totally agree. It's great to have now (and I really like it!), but a 9 song-album with three cover songs and a reworked SMU wouldn't have been a good follow-up to TY.

I wish I could get a vinyl rip, because Stephen Marcussen went too far this time with his "remaster". CDs and digital downloads are briclwalled, compressed, with dynamic range of 5 and 8 for Wembley. People are not listening to music anymore, they are listening to noise.

I have listened to the new songs several times now. The highlights are undoubtedly the cover versions. Of the original compositions, only Fast Talking Slow Walking is worth mentioning. This is the only self-composed song that has a certain musical architecture. Everything else are arbitrary chord progressions that could be different, and a lot of Jagger noise that could be different, too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 11:29 by RobertJohnson.

<Everything else are arbitrary chord progressions that could be different>

You mean like Rocks Off, All Down The Line, Tumbling Dice and Brown Sugar?

It's what they do with those chords that matter. Personally, I think there are exciting things going on in Living In The Heart Of Love and Come To The Ball as well.

And standard r&b, rockabilly and rock'n'roll chord patterns never get old for my ears, when executed brilliantly - like on some of the songs here (It's A Lie, Fiji Jim).

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JordyLicks96

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Four Stone Walls

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman


According to Kimsey this version is from the BAB-sessions.

That's not about the deluxe version, though, it simply says 'first reggae version' or whatever as in that's when they started working on it. This is an earlier take than the LP take from 1977.

Have you read the book that came with the superdeluxe-set? Kimsey is saying that this version, on LP2, is indeed from the BAB-sessions. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of the quote later.

Kinsey says it's from 1975 sessions. Mathis says no such version now exists and all(?) versions we have are from '78. ( Why not '77 Mathis?)
So who is right? I think Kinsey.


I noticed from the Trouble's a Coming thread that Mathis is certain it is from 1978 ( again, why not '77?) because of Keith's guitar and amp set-up. Sounds knowledgeable and plausible. Mathis knows his equipment stuff.
But Kinsey says it's from '79 Bahamas sessions.
To me TAC does not have the same vibe or sound as other ER tracks so. I have, until now at least been inclined to believe Mathis.
Who is right?

It's very plausible Troubles A' Comin is from the Some Girls sessions. Assistant Engineer Barry Sage is credited on the song. He only worked with the Stones for two albums, Some Girls and Tattoo You. I don't believe he was there for Emotional Rescue but I'd have to check the credits on the album. It's A Lie credits him as well, so that also may very well be from the Some Girls sessions and not Emotional Rescue.

Thanks JLicks.
I also think It's a Lie is quite lively too - with a less coked- out vibe than eg Let Me Go and other ER tracks!

I thought I had a reggae version of SMU on a boot of '75 outtakes ( incl Act Together - which might have ended up on B&B if Keith had not given it to Ronnie's album). Everyone says that's where it started life - but you are saying no recorded version exists from 75? All the claims that it's from 75 are not fictitious nonsense though, surely?

To those who think a 9--travk 2021 Disc 2 would have been a good 80s album - it depends very much on Mick's 2021 vocals and Ronnie's recent work etc etc..

Never in a million years would they have chosen another load of out-takes to release as ' new mayerial'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 13:01 by Four Stone Walls.

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DandelionPowderman


Totally agree. It's great to have now (and I really like it!), but a 9 song-album with three cover songs and a reworked SMU wouldn't have been a good follow-up to TY.

Yeah, but if they would really have considered another TATTOO YOU type album back then, they could have used all the material they have now released in bonus albums (and forget a re-take of "Start Me Up"). There we would have "Scarlet", "Plundered My Soul" etc. If I would make a sort of 'best of all bonus albums' that would easily - and by a huge mile - win in quality any post-TATTOO YOU album (who knows, even some pre-TATTOO YOU as well). Actually I was thinking that sort of 'best of' album in the other night, and most likely I would put all LOST&FOUND tracks there.

But in retrospect it is so easy to talk. I mean, listening to FULLY FINISHED BLAH BLAH bootleg, there are tracks from DIRTY WORK sessions that makes one to ask why didn't they relaese this cool number instead of that lousy number that made the album, etc. But still, if I'd be really honest, I don't think there is any "Blind Willie McTell" to be found in Stones vaults, if you know what I mean (well, "Start Me Up" kinda were that sort of true gem originally, as probably some other TATTOO YOU tracks). Not the history had been much different or, say, DIRTY WORK hailed as a masterpiece now if back then some song selections would have been different. The differences would have been in nuances mostly.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 11:50 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


Totally agree. It's great to have now (and I really like it!), but a 9 song-album with three cover songs and a reworked SMU wouldn't have been a good follow-up to TY.

Yeah, but if they would really have considered another TATTOO YOU type album back then, they could have used all the material they have now released in bonus albums (and forget a re-take of "Start Me Up"). There we would have "Scarlet", "Plundered My Soul" etc. If I would make a sort of 'best of all bonus albums' that would easily - and by a huge mile - win in quality any post-TATTOO YOU album (who knows, even some pre-TATTOO YOU as well). Actually I was thinking that sort of 'best of' album in the other night, and most likely I would put all LOST&FOUND tracks there.

But in retrospect it is so easy to talk. I mean, listening to FULLY FINISHED BLAH BLAH bootleg, there are tracks from DIRTY WORK sessions that makes one to ask why didn't they relaese this cool number instead of that lousy number that made the album, etc. But still, if I'd be really honest, I don't think there is any "Blind Willie McTell" to be found in Stones vaults, if you know what I mean (well, "Start Me Up" kinda were that sort of true gem originally, as probably some other TATTOO YOU tracks). Not the history had been much different or, say, DIRTY WORK hailed as a masterpiece now if back then some song selections would have been different. The differences would have been in nuances mostly.

- Doxa

Songwriting-wise, they picked the best numbers for TY. These tracks (and most of the others from the Exile, GHS and SG bonus discs as well) aren't really on the same level.

TY was a stroke of genius that was impossible to re-create, imo. An important aspect of creating an album is to make coherence - to make the songs fit together, to make a flow (or, in TY's case two flows).

The only other bonus album that came near a "real" album is the SG bonus disc, imo, with its country-tinged sound. It just was a good album in its own right.

However, there is no doubt about the Stones have lots of good recordings and that they could have made a good album out over the leftovers. IMO, it sounds like they haven't been willing to do the proper job to make it work. Or should I say, to put the right man on the job.

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DandelionPowderman


You mean like Rocks Off, All Down The Line, Tumbling Dice and Brown Sugar?

It's what they do with those chords that matter. Personally, I think there are exciting things going on in Living In The Heart Of Love and Come To The Ball as well.

And standard r&b, rockabilly and rock'n'roll chord patterns never get old for my ears, when executed brilliantly - like on some of the songs here (It's A Lie, Fiji Jim).

These songs have an architecture held together by melody, rhythm and an inner necessity.

Haven’t read the credits. Is Don Was listed on this. To me the real gem is Wembley. I think it’s better than VA 1981 and Leeds 1982. YCAGWYW is killer on Wembley. God do I miss that rawness.

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Bashlets

Is Don Was listed on this.

No. See: [www.Qobuz.com] - (i)-Button.

Pardonnez- moi.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 13:07 by Four Stone Walls.

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RobertJohnson

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DandelionPowderman


You mean like Rocks Off, All Down The Line, Tumbling Dice and Brown Sugar?

It's what they do with those chords that matter. Personally, I think there are exciting things going on in Living In The Heart Of Love and Come To The Ball as well.

And standard r&b, rockabilly and rock'n'roll chord patterns never get old for my ears, when executed brilliantly - like on some of the songs here (It's A Lie, Fiji Jim).

These songs have an architecture held together by melody, rhythm and an inner necessity.

WTF is an “inner necessity”? Sorry, I’ve never heard that musical term

Rod

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RobertJohnson

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DandelionPowderman


You mean like Rocks Off, All Down The Line, Tumbling Dice and Brown Sugar?

It's what they do with those chords that matter. Personally, I think there are exciting things going on in Living In The Heart Of Love and Come To The Ball as well.

And standard r&b, rockabilly and rock'n'roll chord patterns never get old for my ears, when executed brilliantly - like on some of the songs here (It's A Lie, Fiji Jim).

These songs have an architecture held together by melody, rhythm and an inner necessity.

There was a reason why I chose those songs. None of them are especially melodic, and they all have pretty standard chord progressions (except for the bridge in Rocks Off). All songs are brilliant.

Rhythm-wise I have nothing to complain about with the songs on TY LP2.

Inner necessity? Planning to make several albums, in case Keith had to go to prison. I think the answer is right there. I don't think they took lightly on those sessions.

Vinyl version has the original four and a half minute or so edit of Slave - do digital versions have the longer six and a half minute version that was released on CD in the 1990s? Also crappy edit (sounds like a jump at around 2.50 point) on Fiji Jim - is this on digital versions as well?

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Four Stone Walls

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman


According to Kimsey this version is from the BAB-sessions.

That's not about the deluxe version, though, it simply says 'first reggae version' or whatever as in that's when they started working on it. This is an earlier take than the LP take from 1977.

Have you read the book that came with the superdeluxe-set? Kimsey is saying that this version, on LP2, is indeed from the BAB-sessions. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of the quote later.

Kinsey says it's from 1975 sessions. Mathis says no such version now exists and all(?) versions we have are from '78. ( Why not '77 Mathis?)
So who is right? I think Kinsey.


I noticed from the Trouble's a Coming thread that Mathis is certain it is from 1978 ( again, why not '77?) because of Keith's guitar and amp set-up. Sounds knowledgeable and plausible. Mathis knows his equipment stuff.
But Kinsey says it's from '79 Bahamas sessions.
To me TAC does not have the same vibe or sound as other ER tracks so. I have, until now at least been inclined to believe Mathis.
Who is right?

In my opinion -and it is indeed more of an educated guess - there are sonic differences in the various recording sessions. In 1977 Charlie still used his black Gretsch set, in February 1978 he added the China crash, from April 1978 on he changed to the maple Gretsch set. Wyman used his Ampeg London bass for early 1977 sessions and the long scale Travis Bean for the remainder of the sessions, and in late January or early February 1978 received the short scale Travis Bean. 1977 was a mix of Boogie and Fender amps with various guitars, whereas from 1979 on especially Keith used the Boogie MKI and the Tele Custom almost exclusively. Pathe Marconi has a denser mix, with less separation between the guitars (almost a mono sound, like on Imagination), and 1979 has a very clear and crisp sound, with a cracking snare and high pitched Tele bends.

There's more to it -but in general you can get a feel for when something was recorded. So about Start Me up: that really sounds like the old black Gretsch set, no China, Bill is playing the short scale Travis Bean. Guitar amps are Boogie. This leads to a most likely recording date of February 1978.

They could have played it for sure in 1975, but any of the 1975 versions simply is not available to us.

Mathijs

I just got mine yesterday in the mail , and on the shelf it goes along with the previous Bigger Bang Box set . Unopened , some day maybe ?

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TheGreek
I just got mine yesterday in the mail , and on the shelf it goes along with the previous Bigger Bang Box set . Unopened , some day maybe ?

Mine already went back for replacement. The outer box was damaged upon arrival. Very poor packaging by amazon and, apparently, reckless delivery by post office. Not to mention a bit stupid construction of the box itself.

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martinw
Vinyl version has the original four and a half minute or so edit of Slave - do digital versions have the longer six and a half minute version that was released on CD in the 1990s? Also crappy edit (sounds like a jump at around 2.50 point) on Fiji Jim - is this on digital versions as well?

Digital version and CD came with 03-Slave (6:32), i.e. so called long version.
Digital download and CD contain the same digital material.

In digital world 03-Slave
Short LP version on:
Toshiba-EMI, 'black triangle' CD, Japan only 1983
CD CBS, mastered by Greg Calbi 1986
Japan only SHM-SACD and SHM-CD based on 2011 'flat transfer from original master tapes'

Long version on
CD Virgin, mastered by Bob Ludwig 1994
CD UM, mastered by Stephen Marcussen 2009
40th Anniversary edition CD1, mastered by Stephen Marcussen 2021



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-28 15:26 by ironbelly.