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frankotero
Is it possible to measure the DR level (brick walling) on the vinyl. They sound good to me.

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ironbelly
Evolution of Start Me Up for different mastering and editions in digital domain.

1983, Toshiba-EMI [CP35-3032] CD with 'black triangle' label. The very first CD of The Rolling Stones in the world ever. Apart of very obvious pop at the mark 0.03 the rest looks pretty much OK. Dynamic Range (DR) for the track is DR=12. Well, the tape used for A/D transfer was obviously not the 1st generation, A/D converters were really bad. However, (most probably) not too many manipulations in digital domain were done. Call it a flat transfer if you wish. Mumbo-jumbo in digital domain was not well developed at the time.


1986, CBS mastering for catalog re-issue. Tattoo You CD was mastered by Greg Calbi. Again, minimal intrusion in digital domain. Although, it is a tad louder comparing to the previous one. Really nicely sounding CD. This time DR=14


1994, Virgin remaster made by Bob Ludvig. He used new A/D converters, much better than those for previous cases and (allegedly) better tpes. But he also increased the volume, added compression and equalized the CD differently. Hate to tell to fans of this remaster, but many peaks were shaved due to clipping. That is not drastic 'shave' but tops of the loudest peaks are flat. DR=11


2009, Stephen 'Masher' Marcussen's remaster. Very controversial one. At the time it was considered as an example of brickwall mastering. Volume to the max, tons of compression added. DR=7. We did not know all in 2009 .


2011, back to the egg. Japanese only SHM-CD edition prepared as a flat transfer from original master tapes. This one is pretty similar to old good 1983 EMI-Toshiba CD. But this time the tape was original, A/D converters were better. The CD sounds fabulous. But I have a feeling they applied some equalizing. DR=14


2021, Masher strikes again. This time it is no brickwall, it is a concrete plate.
DR=4. Ear-bleeding over-compressed loud mess.


Call me a moaner but there is extremely nicely done Japanese flat transfer. It was done for archival purposes and exist in DSD format. It was re-issued in Japan in 2020 on SHM-CD once again. It is handy. So why we got another barely listenable product in 2021?

Quote
Hairball
Might have been a better idea to take all these extras, oddballs, and other assorted ditties, and make them a standalone release rather than trying to force fit them on to a well established album.
It's similar to adding chapters to an old favorite book, with some of the chapters being rewritten/updated 40+ years after the fact - it sort of tarnishes and corrupts the original cohesiveness as it has with past editions.
Not a complaint, just a thought, but in the end I guess it's better to have them vs. not to have them at all.

Quote
Hairball
Might have been a better idea to take all these extras, oddballs, and other assorted ditties, and make them a standalone release rather than trying to force fit them on to a well established album.
It's similar to adding chapters to an old favorite book, with some of the chapters being rewritten/updated 40+ years after the fact - it sort of tarnishes and corrupts the original cohesiveness as it has with past editions.
Not a complaint, just a thought, but in the end I guess it's better to have them vs. not to have them at all.

Quote
erad
Well after sampling some of the Wembley show via Spotify I am not so sure about springing for the Super Deluxe anymore. It sounds super thin, the drums in particular. Not much better than a standard 1981/82 SBD boot. Actually I had a boot of the Hampton show that I downloaded years ago which sounds 10x better than this release... Certainly not worth paying the extra $100+ for a book and an average sounding SBD recording.

Quote
frankotero
Thanks again ironbelly for the DR information. I thought the vinyl was better, although 8 isn't too bad 10 would have been nice. Oh well.

Quote
ironbelly
Evolution of Start Me Up for different mastering and editions in digital domain.

1983, Toshiba-EMI [CP35-3032] CD with 'black triangle' label. The very first CD of The Rolling Stones in the world ever. Apart of very obvious pop at the mark 0.03 the rest looks pretty much OK. Dynamic Range (DR) for the track is DR=12. Well, the tape used for A/D transfer was obviously not the 1st generation, A/D converters were really bad. However, (most probably) not too many manipulations in digital domain were done. Call it a flat transfer if you wish. Mumbo-jumbo in digital domain was not well developed at the time.


1986, CBS mastering for catalog re-issue. Tattoo You CD was mastered by Greg Calbi. Again, minimal intrusion in digital domain. Although, it is a tad louder comparing to the previous one. Really nicely sounding CD. This time DR=14


1994, Virgin remaster made by Bob Ludvig. He used new A/D converters, much better than those for previous cases and (allegedly) better tpes. But he also increased the volume, added compression and equalized the CD differently. Hate to tell to fans of this remaster, but many peaks were shaved due to clipping. That is not drastic 'shave' but tops of the loudest peaks are flat. DR=11


2009, Stephen 'Masher' Marcussen's remaster. Very controversial one. At the time it was considered as an example of brickwall mastering. Volume to the max, tons of compression added. DR=7. We did not know all in 2009 .


2011, back to the egg. Japanese only SHM-CD edition prepared as a flat transfer from original master tapes. This one is pretty similar to old good 1983 EMI-Toshiba CD. But this time the tape was original, A/D converters were better. The CD sounds fabulous. But I have a feeling they applied some equalizing. DR=14


2021, Masher strikes again. This time it is no brickwall, it is a concrete plate.
DR=4. Ear-bleeding over-compressed loud mess.


Call me a moaner but there is extremely nicely done Japanese flat transfer. It was done for archival purposes and exist in DSD format. It was re-issued in Japan in 2020 on SHM-CD once again. It is handy. So why we got another barely listenable product in 2021?

Quote
Hairball
Might have been a better idea to take all these extras, oddballs, and other assorted ditties, and make them a standalone release rather than trying to force fit them on to a well established album.
It's similar to adding chapters to an old favorite book, with some of the chapters being rewritten/updated 40+ years after the fact - it sort of tarnishes and corrupts the original cohesiveness as it has with past editions.
Not a complaint, just a thought, but in the end I guess it's better to have them vs. not to have them at all.

Quote
ironbelly
Evolution of Start Me Up for different mastering and editions in digital domain.

1983, Toshiba-EMI [CP35-3032] CD with 'black triangle' label. The very first CD of The Rolling Stones in the world ever. Apart of very obvious pop at the mark 0.03 the rest looks pretty much OK. Dynamic Range (DR) for the track is DR=12. Well, the tape used for A/D transfer was obviously not the 1st generation, A/D converters were really bad. However, (most probably) not too many manipulations in digital domain were done. Call it a flat transfer if you wish. Mumbo-jumbo in digital domain was not well developed at the time.


1986, CBS mastering for catalog re-issue. Tattoo You CD was mastered by Greg Calbi. Again, minimal intrusion in digital domain. Although, it is a tad louder comparing to the previous one. Really nicely sounding CD. This time DR=14


1994, Virgin remaster made by Bob Ludvig. He used new A/D converters, much better than those for previous cases and (allegedly) better tpes. But he also increased the volume, added compression and equalized the CD differently. Hate to tell to fans of this remaster, but many peaks were shaved due to clipping. That is not drastic 'shave' but tops of the loudest peaks are flat. DR=11


2009, Stephen 'Masher' Marcussen's remaster. Very controversial one. At the time it was considered as an example of brickwall mastering. Volume to the max, tons of compression added. DR=7. We did not know all in 2009 .


2011, back to the egg. Japanese only SHM-CD edition prepared as a flat transfer from original master tapes. This one is pretty similar to old good 1983 EMI-Toshiba CD. But this time the tape was original, A/D converters were better. The CD sounds fabulous. But I have a feeling they applied some equalizing. DR=14


2021, Masher strikes again. This time it is no brickwall, it is a concrete plate.
DR=4. Ear-bleeding over-compressed loud mess.


Call me a moaner but there is extremely nicely done Japanese flat transfer. It was done for archival purposes and exist in DSD format. It was re-issued in Japan in 2020 on SHM-CD once again. It is handy. So why we got another barely listenable product in 2021?

Quote
retired_dog

Quote
Hairball
Might have been a better idea to take all these extras, oddballs, and other assorted ditties, and make them a standalone release rather than trying to force fit them on to a well established album.
It's similar to adding chapters to an old favorite book, with some of the chapters being rewritten/updated 40+ years after the fact - it sort of tarnishes and corrupts the original cohesiveness as it has with past editions.
Not a complaint, just a thought, but in the end I guess it's better to have them vs. not to have them at all.

As the original albums always remained intact on all Deluxe Editions by keeping the bonus tracks on separate discs (even the bonus live tracks on YaYas Deluxe), I can't see what actually "tarnishes and corrupts the original cohesiveness". It's not that they sprinkled bonus tracks inbetween the tracks of the original albums and played with the original running order!

Quote
maumau
Lost and Found Rarities sounds more like Blue & Lonesome Part II than the lost chapter of TY, soundwise

The hard work, that is told in the book, to make a cohesive unit of songs coming from so many different sessions time and locations for the album in 1981 has not been made

that is, it has not been made taking the sound of TY as a reference

it sounds more like what a contemporary new stones WOULD sound (if such thing will ever be)

in a way it even makes sense

bottom line, as Hairball said, good to have them instead of not

ps: wembley, i confirm, is a pretty fine bootleg, good to have it. pricey though

Quote
micha063

Quote
ironbelly
Evolution of Start Me Up for different mastering and editions in digital domain.

1983, Toshiba-EMI [CP35-3032] CD with 'black triangle' label. The very first CD of The Rolling Stones in the world ever. Apart of very obvious pop at the mark 0.03 the rest looks pretty much OK. Dynamic Range (DR) for the track is DR=12. Well, the tape used for A/D transfer was obviously not the 1st generation, A/D converters were really bad. However, (most probably) not too many manipulations in digital domain were done. Call it a flat transfer if you wish. Mumbo-jumbo in digital domain was not well developed at the time.


1986, CBS mastering for catalog re-issue. Tattoo You CD was mastered by Greg Calbi. Again, minimal intrusion in digital domain. Although, it is a tad louder comparing to the previous one. Really nicely sounding CD. This time DR=14


1994, Virgin remaster made by Bob Ludvig. He used new A/D converters, much better than those for previous cases and (allegedly) better tpes. But he also increased the volume, added compression and equalized the CD differently. Hate to tell to fans of this remaster, but many peaks were shaved due to clipping. That is not drastic 'shave' but tops of the loudest peaks are flat. DR=11


2009, Stephen 'Masher' Marcussen's remaster. Very controversial one. At the time it was considered as an example of brickwall mastering. Volume to the max, tons of compression added. DR=7. We did not know all in 2009 .


2011, back to the egg. Japanese only SHM-CD edition prepared as a flat transfer from original master tapes. This one is pretty similar to old good 1983 EMI-Toshiba CD. But this time the tape was original, A/D converters were better. The CD sounds fabulous. But I have a feeling they applied some equalizing. DR=14


2021, Masher strikes again. This time it is no brickwall, it is a concrete plate.
DR=4. Ear-bleeding over-compressed loud mess.


Call me a moaner but there is extremely nicely done Japanese flat transfer. It was done for archival purposes and exist in DSD format. It was re-issued in Japan in 2020 on SHM-CD once again. It is handy. So why we got another barely listenable product in 2021?

Do you know, if all cbs releases are the same?
I don't think so. Do you know wjich release is the one mixed by Greg Calbi? Thank You!

Quote
micha063

Do you know which release is the one mixed by Greg Calbi?

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Gazza

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crholmstrom
I think there was plenty of good reason that the outtakes weren't released on the record.

They were never even worked on or considered for Tattoo You to begin with.

Quote
ab
I took all the newly released songs from Exile, GHS, Some Girls and Tattoo You and made the following 2 CD-R compilation:

Disc 1
Scarlet
Plundered My Soul
All the Rage
I'm Not Signifying
Dancing in the Light
Living in the Heart of Love
Following the River
Criss Cross
Pass the Wine
So Divine
Drift Away
Come to the Ball
Fast Talking, Slow Walking
Title 5

Disc two
Tallahassee Lassie
Claudine
Fiji Jim
Do You Think I Really Care
Keep Up Blues
So Young
You Win Again
When You're Gone
Shame Shame Shame
Trouble's A-Comin'
It's a Lie
No Spare Parts
Don't Be a Stranger
I Love You Too Much
We Had It All
Petrol Blues

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Irix

Quote
micha063

Do you know which release is the one mixed by Greg Calbi?

Mastered by Greg Calbi - CBS Europe 1989: [www.Discogs.com] .

All releases of Tattoo You - [www.Discogs.com] .

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JordyLicks96

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Taylor1
I find it hard to believe that Taylor is not playing on WOAF in some capacity. Bass? There is no song from the Goats Head Soup sessions he is not playing on

Interestingly on outtakes of WOAF, I can hear an acoustic guitar being played in the background but can not hear it on the official release unless it is buried in the mix. Perhaps that was Taylor?

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jahisnotdead
Do people really think the vocals on Drift Away are new? I personally don't hear any difference.

Quote
micha063

Do you know, if all cbs releases are the same?
I don't think so. Do you know wjich release is the one mixed by Greg Calbi? Thank You!

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frankotero
I would like to make one final comment about audio quality. It's understandable the brick wall strategy is for smartphones and lo-fi ear buds. However, maybe it's possible to make the records closer to audiophile. And yes I would agree it's basically nice to have this concert and out-takes in the state they're in. But I can still wish.

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ironbelly

Quote
micha063

Do you know, if all cbs releases are the same?
I don't think so. Do you know wjich release is the one mixed by Greg Calbi? Thank You!

All CBS releases around the world are the same. No matter year of issue (1986-1993), catalog number, CD label style etc. Nice price/Mid price Austrian and Japanese editions are the same too. If you want all at once (including b-sides and rarities) - head for big pink box Collection 1971-1989
[www.discogs.com]
But this one can be rather pricey.

Digital mastering was done in 1986 on album per album basis by

Greg Calbi
1971 - Sticky Fingers
1972 - Exile On Main Street
1978 - Some Girls
1981 - Tattoo You

Vlado Meller
1973 - Goats Head Soup
1976 - Black And Blue
1977 - Love You Live
1980 - Emotional Rescue
1981 - Sucking in the Seventies
1982 - Still Life

George Marino
1984 - Rewind

Ted Jensen
1974 - It's Only Rock And Roll
1975 - Made In The Shade
1983 - Undercover

Bob Ludwig
1986 - Dirty Work

All CBS discs are good with exception of Sticky Fingers, Exile and IORR. These are subjects to some criticism in terms of sound quality.

Some prefer Virgin editions mastered by Bob Ludvig over CBS discs, the others visa versa. It depends on your ears and your system. But I do not want to go to that discussion here.