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TravelinMan
I think the Exile version of Sweet Virginia stems from Olympic in 1970 during the Sticky Fingers sessions. There are too many similarities for me to think it was originally recorded elsewhere.

Listen to Loving Cup from the Let It Bleed sessions and then the Exile version (which may have even been recorded again for Sticky Fingers). They were obviously recorded at different times in different sessions. I don't really hear that with Sweet Virginia. They probably did some overdubs in France or LA though.

As far as Tattoo You goes, I imagine the outtakes would be the material Kimsey brought forward to work on or maybe alternate versions of some songs that made the record.

No. Listen to that 1970 version. It's not the same as the released version. A lot of markers to reveal that.

We already know that Loving Cup was done over again.

In regard to what you said about TATTOO YOU, "alternate versions"? They do 20, 30 takes, more, sometimes only 2 or 3, of a song, so... not sure what you're really getting at, especially considering that the, for example, take of Neighbours was probably not the first, yet alone how many they actually did, but whatever reason occurred for the take to be the one Mick (and Keith and Ronnie) finished in early 1981 was the one that worked. Bob Clearmountain (and possibly Jagger) distinguished why the cymbals were muted out of the mix for a majority of the song.

There's no apparent way of how a song gets recorded at least up through 1985, because it seems rather apparent that since STEEL WHEELS they don't do multiple takes of a song. One aspect that is not known is if they ever decided to blend takes together like The Beatles did. I'm going to guess not, because the Stones were more of the moment, where as The Beatles were not.

There was a poster that complained that TATTOO YOU wasn't a genuine LP because it was all leftovers and wasn't fresh etc and therefor didn't count as an original album. What that mope didn't understand, and refused to understand based on a fake principle, is that, musically, it doesn't matter when it's recorded (which is pretty much what Keith is saying in all and any of his quips about what they do, especially regarding TY), and it doesn't matter when the vocals are done, as well, which Mick mentioned as well.

You'll see people saying in whatever threads, 'they need to record new versions' but... they don't if they don't need to. If it was the case of the complainer then there's a portion of really good songs on really good albums that wouldn't exist because of a fake morality in what constitutes a new LP.

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda

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Gazza
The use of 'sic' in the quote is the clue. In other words, he's mistaken.

Mick's recollection of what albums songs are from is notoriously erratic. He's stating (correctly) that Sweet Virginia was recorded for an older album but he's incorrect in guessing it was for Beggars Banquet - the first known version is from summer 1970.

thank you, I assumed the "sic" was because of the mangling of the English language in that incomplete sentence: "That was recorded from before Beggars Banquet (sic)."

I didn't think the song went back that far, certainly doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for clarifying I am not losing my mind completely.

Where can one hear this supposed 1970 version?

jb

Apparently this is from the October 1970 Stargroves sessions for STICKY FINGERS. The EXILE version was most likely recorded in France and finished in Los Angeles but also could've been recorded in Los Angeles like whatever other tracks were.

Sweet Virginia was recorded at Olympic in 1970, not Stargroves or Nellcote.

Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan
I think the Exile version of Sweet Virginia stems from Olympic in 1970 during the Sticky Fingers sessions. There are too many similarities for me to think it was originally recorded elsewhere.

Listen to Loving Cup from the Let It Bleed sessions and then the Exile version (which may have even been recorded again for Sticky Fingers). They were obviously recorded at different times in different sessions. I don't really hear that with Sweet Virginia. They probably did some overdubs in France or LA though.

As far as Tattoo You goes, I imagine the outtakes would be the material Kimsey brought forward to work on or maybe alternate versions of some songs that made the record.

No. Listen to that 1970 version. It's not the same as the released version. A lot of markers to reveal that.

We already know that Loving Cup was done over again.

In regard to what you said about TATTOO YOU, "alternate versions"? They do 20, 30 takes, more, sometimes only 2 or 3, of a song, so... not sure what you're really getting at, especially considering that the, for example, take of Neighbours was probably not the first, yet alone how many they actually did, but whatever reason occurred for the take to be the one Mick (and Keith and Ronnie) finished in early 1981 was the one that worked. Bob Clearmountain (and possibly Jagger) distinguished why the cymbals were muted out of the mix for a majority of the song.

There's no apparent way of how a song gets recorded at least up through 1985, because it seems rather apparent that since STEEL WHEELS they don't do multiple takes of a song. One aspect that is not known is if they ever decided to blend takes together like The Beatles did. I'm going to guess not, because the Stones were more of the moment, where as The Beatles were not.

There was a poster that complained that TATTOO YOU wasn't a genuine LP because it was all leftovers and wasn't fresh etc and therefor didn't count as an original album. What that mope didn't understand, and refused to understand based on a fake principle, is that, musically, it doesn't matter when it's recorded (which is pretty much what Keith is saying in all and any of his quips about what they do, especially regarding TY), and it doesn't matter when the vocals are done, as well, which Mick mentioned as well.

You'll see people saying in whatever threads, 'they need to record new versions' but... they don't if they don't need to. If it was the case of the complainer then there's a portion of really good songs on really good albums that wouldn't exist because of a fake morality in what constitutes a new LP.

I didn’t say Sweet Virginia was the same take, but it’s an earlier take from the same session. Bobby Keys is still figuring out his solo.

I’m not sure what’s confusing you about Tattoo You having alternate takes. They’ve included older versions of songs as outtakes before. For instance, I’m sure it would be interesting for the non-die-hard fans to hear the reggae version of Start Me Up. Or perhaps there is the mythical version of Waiting on a Friend with a Mick Taylor solo. Maybe even a Heaven acoustic guitar demo!

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda

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Gazza
The use of 'sic' in the quote is the clue. In other words, he's mistaken.

Mick's recollection of what albums songs are from is notoriously erratic. He's stating (correctly) that Sweet Virginia was recorded for an older album but he's incorrect in guessing it was for Beggars Banquet - the first known version is from summer 1970.

thank you, I assumed the "sic" was because of the mangling of the English language in that incomplete sentence: "That was recorded from before Beggars Banquet (sic)."

I didn't think the song went back that far, certainly doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for clarifying I am not losing my mind completely.

Where can one hear this supposed 1970 version?

jb

Apparently this is from the October 1970 Stargroves sessions for STICKY FINGERS. The EXILE version was most likely recorded in France and finished in Los Angeles but also could've been recorded in Los Angeles like whatever other tracks were.

Sweet Virginia was recorded at Olympic in 1970, not Stargroves or Nellcote.

Mathijs

Totally agree. I think Jagger’s final vocals were done in LA.

When people say they recorded it in France, I believe they probably just jammed the song around the house. I think it’s romantic to think the backing vocals were done in France, but they were most likely done in LA too.

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TravelinMan

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan
I think the Exile version of Sweet Virginia stems from Olympic in 1970 during the Sticky Fingers sessions. There are too many similarities for me to think it was originally recorded elsewhere.

Listen to Loving Cup from the Let It Bleed sessions and then the Exile version (which may have even been recorded again for Sticky Fingers). They were obviously recorded at different times in different sessions. I don't really hear that with Sweet Virginia. They probably did some overdubs in France or LA though.

As far as Tattoo You goes, I imagine the outtakes would be the material Kimsey brought forward to work on or maybe alternate versions of some songs that made the record.

No. Listen to that 1970 version. It's not the same as the released version. A lot of markers to reveal that.

We already know that Loving Cup was done over again.

In regard to what you said about TATTOO YOU, "alternate versions"? They do 20, 30 takes, more, sometimes only 2 or 3, of a song, so... not sure what you're really getting at, especially considering that the, for example, take of Neighbours was probably not the first, yet alone how many they actually did, but whatever reason occurred for the take to be the one Mick (and Keith and Ronnie) finished in early 1981 was the one that worked. Bob Clearmountain (and possibly Jagger) distinguished why the cymbals were muted out of the mix for a majority of the song.

There's no apparent way of how a song gets recorded at least up through 1985, because it seems rather apparent that since STEEL WHEELS they don't do multiple takes of a song. One aspect that is not known is if they ever decided to blend takes together like The Beatles did. I'm going to guess not, because the Stones were more of the moment, where as The Beatles were not.

There was a poster that complained that TATTOO YOU wasn't a genuine LP because it was all leftovers and wasn't fresh etc and therefor didn't count as an original album. What that mope didn't understand, and refused to understand based on a fake principle, is that, musically, it doesn't matter when it's recorded (which is pretty much what Keith is saying in all and any of his quips about what they do, especially regarding TY), and it doesn't matter when the vocals are done, as well, which Mick mentioned as well.

You'll see people saying in whatever threads, 'they need to record new versions' but... they don't if they don't need to. If it was the case of the complainer then there's a portion of really good songs on really good albums that wouldn't exist because of a fake morality in what constitutes a new LP.

I didn’t say Sweet Virginia was the same take, but it’s an earlier take from the same session. Bobby Keys is still figuring out his solo.

I’m not sure what’s confusing you about Tattoo You having alternate takes. They’ve included older versions of songs as outtakes before. For instance, I’m sure it would be interesting for the non-die-hard fans to hear the reggae version of Start Me Up. Or perhaps there is the mythical version of Waiting on a Friend with a Mick Taylor solo. Maybe even a Heaven acoustic guitar demo!

Oh. Right. Got it. Yes, certainly they could include the other takes of Neighbours or Hang Fire, Start Me Up. I was simply going by what takes were used to make the album.

About Sweet Virginia, was just specifying that it isn't the LP take, that's all.

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda

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Gazza
The use of 'sic' in the quote is the clue. In other words, he's mistaken.

Mick's recollection of what albums songs are from is notoriously erratic. He's stating (correctly) that Sweet Virginia was recorded for an older album but he's incorrect in guessing it was for Beggars Banquet - the first known version is from summer 1970.

thank you, I assumed the "sic" was because of the mangling of the English language in that incomplete sentence: "That was recorded from before Beggars Banquet (sic)."

I didn't think the song went back that far, certainly doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for clarifying I am not losing my mind completely.

Where can one hear this supposed 1970 version?

jb

Apparently this is from the October 1970 Stargroves sessions for STICKY FINGERS. The EXILE version was most likely recorded in France and finished in Los Angeles but also could've been recorded in Los Angeles like whatever other tracks were.

Sweet Virginia was recorded at Olympic in 1970, not Stargroves or Nellcote.

Mathijs

Apparently it was recorded at Olympic in June or July... and the version posted is from Stargroves in October. And was likely recorded again at Nellcote. Perhaps what they're saying is the one recorded at Nellcote wasn't used.

Much as I'd like it, I imagine most of the stuff that could have been on a Tattoo Two deluxe has already been 'released' on the marvellous Fully Furnished outtakes.

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tomcat2006
Much as I'd like it, I imagine most of the stuff that could have been on a Tattoo Two deluxe has already been 'released' on the marvellous Fully Furnished outtakes.

They could cull the three ffso disks down into one and have a killer bonus disk. If they let me choose which ones to include.

jb

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tomcat2006
Much as I'd like it, I imagine most of the stuff that could have been on a Tattoo Two deluxe has already been 'released' on the marvellous Fully Furnished outtakes.

I'd have to have another look but I think you're quite a bit off.

Mick opted to not do a 40 year with EMOTIONAL RESCUE. Even though it charted well it didn't have the impact that the almost 40 year old TATTOO YOU had.

Just a guess. He very well've been told about X amount of leftover tracks. Meanwhile UMe is probably telling Mick - this is the last big chance with a reissue, go dig up tracks from 1972 to 1980.

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GasLightStreet

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda

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Gazza
The use of 'sic' in the quote is the clue. In other words, he's mistaken.

Mick's recollection of what albums songs are from is notoriously erratic. He's stating (correctly) that Sweet Virginia was recorded for an older album but he's incorrect in guessing it was for Beggars Banquet - the first known version is from summer 1970.

thank you, I assumed the "sic" was because of the mangling of the English language in that incomplete sentence: "That was recorded from before Beggars Banquet (sic)."

I didn't think the song went back that far, certainly doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for clarifying I am not losing my mind completely.

Where can one hear this supposed 1970 version?

jb

Apparently this is from the October 1970 Stargroves sessions for STICKY FINGERS. The EXILE version was most likely recorded in France and finished in Los Angeles but also could've been recorded in Los Angeles like whatever other tracks were.

Sweet Virginia was recorded at Olympic in 1970, not Stargroves or Nellcote.

Mathijs

Apparently it was recorded at Olympic in June or July... and the version posted is from Stargroves in October. And was likely recorded again at Nellcote. Perhaps what they're saying is the one recorded at Nellcote wasn't used.

I really doubt all that. It really doesn't have that in-your-face quality from Stargroves but it does have the room and snare sound of Olympics. I also really doubt they would have been able to properly record acoustic guitars at Nellcote.

If you deduct Exile's tracks it shows that actually not that much was recorded at Nellcote, and a lot of what was recorded was wiped and overdubbed in LA.

Mathijs

Yeah, Mathijs.
Of course you're right about the Nell./ LA recordings.

But the Nellcote myth is just too tempting.
One of those great Stones' myths.
So please . .

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GasLightStreet
Mick opted to not do a 40 year with EMOTIONAL RESCUE. Even though it charted well it didn't have the impact that the almost 40 year old TATTOO YOU had.

Just a guess. He very well've been told about X amount of leftover tracks. Meanwhile UMe is probably telling Mick - this is the last big chance with a reissue, go dig up tracks from 1972 to 1980.

That's a shame and a sin not to do the deluxe treatment for Emotional Rescue as the tracks between Pathe Marconi and Paris I believe (correct me if I am wrong ) are plenty to merit the deluxe treatment . I love Emotional rescue , with such diverse tracks there is a little bit of everything on there to please all of us . So Many tracks were recorded for Some Girls and Emotional rescue , so the material is all there !

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda

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Gazza
The use of 'sic' in the quote is the clue. In other words, he's mistaken.

Mick's recollection of what albums songs are from is notoriously erratic. He's stating (correctly) that Sweet Virginia was recorded for an older album but he's incorrect in guessing it was for Beggars Banquet - the first known version is from summer 1970.

thank you, I assumed the "sic" was because of the mangling of the English language in that incomplete sentence: "That was recorded from before Beggars Banquet (sic)."

I didn't think the song went back that far, certainly doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for clarifying I am not losing my mind completely.

Where can one hear this supposed 1970 version?

jb

Apparently this is from the October 1970 Stargroves sessions for STICKY FINGERS. The EXILE version was most likely recorded in France and finished in Los Angeles but also could've been recorded in Los Angeles like whatever other tracks were.

Sweet Virginia was recorded at Olympic in 1970, not Stargroves or Nellcote.

Mathijs

Apparently it was recorded at Olympic in June or July... and the version posted is from Stargroves in October. And was likely recorded again at Nellcote. Perhaps what they're saying is the one recorded at Nellcote wasn't used.

I really doubt all that. It really doesn't have that in-your-face quality from Stargroves but it does have the room and snare sound of Olympics. I also really doubt they would have been able to properly record acoustic guitars at Nellcote.

If you deduct Exile's tracks it shows that actually not that much was recorded at Nellcote, and a lot of what was recorded was wiped and overdubbed in LA.

Mathijs

I tend to agree here. I can’t even think of an acoustic guitar track that was recorded in France (Hopkins Tapes). I’m assuming the acoustic guitars on Ventilator Blues were overdubs in LA to fill it out. Haven’t heard a Hopkins Tape version of that.

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TravelinMan

I tend to agree here. I can’t even think of an acoustic guitar track that was recorded in France (Hopkins Tapes). I’m assuming the acoustic guitars on Ventilator Blues were overdubs in LA to fill it out. Haven’t heard a Hopkins Tape version of that.

That's a good catch, the dobro on Ventilator Blues. There's quite a lot of pics of Keith with the dobro at Nellcote so that could be recorded there.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

I tend to agree here. I can’t even think of an acoustic guitar track that was recorded in France (Hopkins Tapes). I’m assuming the acoustic guitars on Ventilator Blues were overdubs in LA to fill it out. Haven’t heard a Hopkins Tape version of that.

That's a good catch, the dobro on Ventilator Blues. There's quite a lot of pics of Keith with the dobro at Nellcote so that could be recorded there.

Mathijs

Yeah there is a dobro in there and that is a likely candidate. There’s another acoustic in there too. I wish we had some more info on how this song was recorded.

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

I tend to agree here. I can’t even think of an acoustic guitar track that was recorded in France (Hopkins Tapes). I’m assuming the acoustic guitars on Ventilator Blues were overdubs in LA to fill it out. Haven’t heard a Hopkins Tape version of that.

That's a good catch, the dobro on Ventilator Blues. There's quite a lot of pics of Keith with the dobro at Nellcote so that could be recorded there.

Mathijs

Yeah there is a dobro in there and that is a likely candidate. There’s another acoustic in there too. I wish we had some more info on how this song was recorded.

RE: Sweet Virginia. On the legal documents in the Stones vs Klein case, 30.06.70 is stated as the recording date. The date is relevant due to the ownership of the master. In a Stones memo dated September 3rd 1971, during the Nellcote sessions, Sweet Virginia is said to have received "new overdubs", though there is no mention to which/what.
Re: Ventilator. I agree, it is logical that the acoustic that fattens out the dobro riff (starting midway) could be a LA thing. IMHO the dobro is a Nellcote recording, as it "creates" the whole track and has a rather weird, thin sound. Ventilator is among those positively recorded at Nellcote.

Until we have the tape-boxes and/or raw tapes from Villefranche and LA there is really no way of knowing which instrument stems from what session. The acoustic guitars that were recorded at Nellcote were tracked at the basement kitchen. A room about 15m2, 3,5 metre high ceiling with ceramic tiles and a rather grand sound. According to Robin Millar some vocals (guide tracks I guess) were done there as well, but again, no mention of specific tracks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-07-14 22:26 by RobberBride.

Good points, RobberBride.

Perhaps the gang vocals on Sweet Virginia were done in France. I suppose the sax solo could be an overdub as well.

I agree on Ventilator. I’m trying to figure out what the basic tracks were and I’d guess piano, drums, bass, and Richards’ electric guitar. Perhaps the dobro was played by Taylor on the basic track since he was credited for the riff. Or maybe he wrote the riff and it was taken up by Richards and turned into the song we know.

Haha all roads lead to Exile outtakes!

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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jbwelda

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Gazza
The use of 'sic' in the quote is the clue. In other words, he's mistaken.

Mick's recollection of what albums songs are from is notoriously erratic. He's stating (correctly) that Sweet Virginia was recorded for an older album but he's incorrect in guessing it was for Beggars Banquet - the first known version is from summer 1970.

thank you, I assumed the "sic" was because of the mangling of the English language in that incomplete sentence: "That was recorded from before Beggars Banquet (sic)."

I didn't think the song went back that far, certainly doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for clarifying I am not losing my mind completely.

Where can one hear this supposed 1970 version?

jb

Apparently this is from the October 1970 Stargroves sessions for STICKY FINGERS. The EXILE version was most likely recorded in France and finished in Los Angeles but also could've been recorded in Los Angeles like whatever other tracks were.

Sweet Virginia was recorded at Olympic in 1970, not Stargroves or Nellcote.

Mathijs

Apparently it was recorded at Olympic in June or July... and the version posted is from Stargroves in October. And was likely recorded again at Nellcote. Perhaps what they're saying is the one recorded at Nellcote wasn't used.

I really doubt all that. It really doesn't have that in-your-face quality from Stargroves but it does have the room and snare sound of Olympics. I also really doubt they would have been able to properly record acoustic guitars at Nellcote.

If you deduct Exile's tracks it shows that actually not that much was recorded at Nellcote, and a lot of what was recorded was wiped and overdubbed in LA.

Mathijs

I agree. I was just going by what's posted on a couple of sites.

I don't doubt Mick, the only exception being WHEN it was recorded, which, forget the mix, EQ, etc...

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tomcat2006
Much as I'd like it, I imagine most of the stuff that could have been on a Tattoo Two deluxe has already been 'released' on the marvellous Fully Furnished outtakes.

Post EOMS, the really good stuff hasn't come out yet.

Back to the initial question: yes, I think a Tattoo You deluxe version will be out soon!

Although the tracks were outtakes from various sessions, I agree that it was "the last great Stones record".

“Me and Mick have done nine new tracks for the [40th anniversary] re-release of [the Rolling Stones album] Tattoo You”

Rolling Stones guitarist Ronnie Wood, 74, has just bought himself a new home in London. I bet the neighbours’ curtains have been twitching. “I saw Mick [Jagger] here last week and Rod [Stewart] and Kenney [Jones] were here yesterday,” Wood enthuses. He is talking to me on Zoom from an art-filled room in his new place in Little Venice, west London. Upstairs is for painting. Downstairs he has set up a recording studio.

“Me and Mick have done nine new tracks for the [40th anniversary] re-release of [the Rolling Stones album] Tattoo You. And me, Rod and Kenney [the only surviving original members of Wood’s pre-Rolling Stones band the Faces] have been recording some new Faces music.”
[www.thetimes.co.uk]

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MisterDDDD
“Me and Mick have done nine new tracks for the [40th anniversary] re-release of [the Rolling Stones album] Tattoo You”

Rolling Stones guitarist Ronnie Wood, 74, has just bought himself a new home in London. I bet the neighbours’ curtains have been twitching. “I saw Mick [Jagger] here last week and Rod [Stewart] and Kenney [Jones] were here yesterday,” Wood enthuses. He is talking to me on Zoom from an art-filled room in his new place in Little Venice, west London. Upstairs is for painting. Downstairs he has set up a recording studio.

“Me and Mick have done nine new tracks for the [40th anniversary] re-release of [the Rolling Stones album] Tattoo You. And me, Rod and Kenney [the only surviving original members of Wood’s pre-Rolling Stones band the Faces] have been recording some new Faces music.”
[www.thetimes.co.uk]

this is complete awesomeness.

Originally released 24th August 1981, so that would be only 5 weeks away?....or are they waiting for the xmas market or tour dates...imagine them doing the whole album in a club like they did for sticky fingers.....slave live at last.

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Taylor1
Where is Keith on those nine tracks

What makes you, or anyone, think that Keith hasn't worked on any tracks? Maybe he doesn't need to.

Where is Keith on those nine tracks


Where's The Brick Wall Kid when we need him ....hell know HHHHaaAAAAhhhAAAAAAA



ROCKMAN

Hopefully there are some outtakes they left alone.

Thought this perhaps worthy of a thread.. also posted on Tattoo You thread.

VERY exciting.
Article paywalled for me, but wonder if Keith or Charlie had any involvement (remotely etc)?

Ronnie Wood: What having cancer has taught me
The Rolling Stones star on getting the all-clear at 74 and working with Mick again. By Michael Odell


Rolling Stones guitarist Ronnie Wood, 74, has just bought himself a new home in London. I bet the neighbours’ curtains have been twitching. “I saw Mick [Jagger] here last week and Rod [Stewart] and Kenney [Jones] were here yesterday,” Wood enthuses. He is talking to me on Zoom from an art-filled room in his new place in Little Venice, west London. Upstairs is for painting. Downstairs he has set up a recording studio.

“Me and Mick have done nine new tracks for the [40th anniversary] re-release of [the Rolling Stones album] Tattoo You. And me, Rod and Kenney [the only surviving original members of Wood’s pre-Rolling Stones band the Faces] have been recording some new Faces music.”
[www.thetimes.co.uk]

Where is Keith on those nine tracks

Then this needs to be merged with the Tattoo You Deluxe thread. They're not doing nine 'new' tracks for Tattoo You. What would be the point of that? They're polishing old tracks.