Blame it on the Stones
... they've always been takin' the rap ......



ROCKMAN

Brian got a bum rap.

Any notables in the reverse? (this isn't really one )
Rap remixes of the Stones music?

The Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter (Big Hush Rap Remix)

video: [www.youtube.com]

Not quite the Stones, but check out this version of Can't You Hear Me Knocking, by Bernard Fowler with Chuck D rapping...

Straight Outta Dartford



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-24 18:15 by crholmstrom.

There's not one person in hiphop who would credit the Stones for influencing the genre in any regard whatsoever. 1st rap song by the Stones? Hilarious.

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treaclefingers

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SomeGuy
Not every spoken word thingy is rap, or else Patti Smith and Jim Morrison would have been rappers also
Just saying.

Lou Reed was the Original Wrapper!

Well, sorry for Lou Reed, but Rap is not an "new post war thing". There were some great rappers in the Roaring Twenties. I've seen B&W live recorings dating back to the 1920s from USA based Afro-American Blues/Jazz bands with rappers that would knock flat any post war rappers. Nothing new under the horizon here.

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

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georgie48

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laertisflash
I think "Memo From Turner" is their most "rapy" tune.

I can't disagree with you, but ... officially it's not a Rolling Stones song, at least the official version (I know the blootleg version, though)

There is definitely some "talk-singing" on the Stones's officially released version, too

[youtu.be]

One could argue how 'officially released' the Metamorphosis album is. And the fact that Memo is on it doesn't necessarily make it a Rolling Stones song, in my opinion. Apparently a lot of the songs don't feature the band, even.

It's the Stones, only with Al Kooper instead of Mick Taylor. And it's on a released album, as "officially released" as Hot Rocks is.

It also lacks Keith and perhaps Charlie. To me the term 'officially released Stones version' doesn't quite convey the fact that Metamorphosis was not sanctioned by the band and was simply a cashgrab by the then-already ousted Allen Klein, of whom we all know the history of. I'm pretty sure if you'd confront Mick or Keith with a term like 'the version that you officially released in '75' would most certainly raise their eyebrows

It certainly doesn't lack Keith

And what would they say about Hot Rocks? "Never heard of it. Must be a bootleg".

Once it's out there it's out there. Hot Rocks still charts in the US, btw..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-24 09:27 by DandelionPowderman.

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georgie48

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treaclefingers

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SomeGuy
Not every spoken word thingy is rap, or else Patti Smith and Jim Morrison would have been rappers also
Just saying.

Lou Reed was the Original Wrapper!

Well, sorry for Lou Reed, but Rap is not an "new post war thing". There were some great rappers in the Roaring Twenties. I've seen B&W live recorings dating back to the 1920s from USA based Afro-American Blues/Jazz bands with rappers that would knock flat any post war rappers. Nothing new under the horizon here.

The roots of ‘rapping’ go way back, for sure. However, hip-hop as a genre and cultural movement, developed amongst the black and Latino communities of NYC in the 70’s.

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Big Al

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georgie48

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treaclefingers

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SomeGuy
Not every spoken word thingy is rap, or else Patti Smith and Jim Morrison would have been rappers also
Just saying.

Lou Reed was the Original Wrapper!

Well, sorry for Lou Reed, but Rap is not an "new post war thing". There were some great rappers in the Roaring Twenties. I've seen B&W live recorings dating back to the 1920s from USA based Afro-American Blues/Jazz bands with rappers that would knock flat any post war rappers. Nothing new under the horizon here.

The roots of ‘rapping’ go way back, for sure. However, hip-hop as a genre and cultural movement, developed amongst the black and Latino communities of NYC in the 70’s.

Absolutely. Although I really had to get used to their musical approach, I meanwhile think I can distnguish between good and poor examples. The culturele part made it extra interesting, like in 1967 period there was this unwritten link between fashion and music. For me it's like adding some very taste cream on the ice (or icing on the cake, whatever ).

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DandelionPowderman

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

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georgie48

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laertisflash
I think "Memo From Turner" is their most "rapy" tune.

I can't disagree with you, but ... officially it's not a Rolling Stones song, at least the official version (I know the blootleg version, though)

There is definitely some "talk-singing" on the Stones's officially released version, too

[youtu.be]

One could argue how 'officially released' the Metamorphosis album is. And the fact that Memo is on it doesn't necessarily make it a Rolling Stones song, in my opinion. Apparently a lot of the songs don't feature the band, even.

It's the Stones, only with Al Kooper instead of Mick Taylor. And it's on a released album, as "officially released" as Hot Rocks is.

It also lacks Keith and perhaps Charlie. To me the term 'officially released Stones version' doesn't quite convey the fact that Metamorphosis was not sanctioned by the band and was simply a cashgrab by the then-already ousted Allen Klein, of whom we all know the history of. I'm pretty sure if you'd confront Mick or Keith with a term like 'the version that you officially released in '75' would most certainly raise their eyebrows

It certainly doesn't lack Keith

And what would they say about Hot Rocks? "Never heard of it. Must be a bootleg".

Once it's out there it's out there. Hot Rocks still charts in the US, btw..

Hot Rocks features a selection of the Stones' most important music, which was put out by the band during the 60s. No way Mick or Keith would deny having any knowledge of releasing Satisfaction or Jumpin' Jack Flash, I don't think.
Metamorphosis consists of tracks that were recorded partly by Mick with studio musicians (would you call them Stones songs too?) that were never meant to be released, at least not by The Stones, and partly of Stones demos or outtakes, that were equally not intended for release by the band.
But I guess Mick's original solo version suddenly wasn't a solo single anymore when it was included in the mid 80s on The London Years ROLLING STONES single collection box set...
Ok, Mick was not the only Stone present at the Metamorphosis version but no way is it Keith playing. And to call that 'the Stones' officially released version' just because some unauthorised dork wrote 'Rolling Stones' on the sleeve design, I don't think so.
But: let's just agree that I don't hear Keith (and he isn't listed as having played on it) and that you are thinking that it is him, and leave it at that. Cheers!

Shattered is rappier than anything else in the oeuvre especially ASMB where there's basically just a listing of the NY boroughs ham-fisted in there.

<but no way is it Keith playing>

Rap/hip hop is generally credited to have been started by a Jamaican DJ called DJ Kool Herc. He brought the Jamaican style of DJing to NYC and it was through him and his fellow Jamaicans that the style evolved. This was way before Africa Baambatta or Grandmaster Flash or any of those pioneers; they were largely influenced by Kool Herc and that was the beginning of the genre.

jb

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DandelionPowderman
<but no way is it Keith playing>

-[iorr.org], and also see these quotes:
LONDON – Olympic Sound Studios, 18 November 1968
•Sean Egan
“..., energies were focused on overdubs of ‘Memo From Turner’, a track earmarked for soundtrack of the Performance movie. As only overdubs were required, Watts and Wyman were not present. Not, to Kooper’s recollection, was Miller, with only Andy Johns accompanying himself, Jagger and Richards in the studio.
To the best of his recollection, there was already a Jagger vocal on the track when he began overdubbing with Richards.”
“It’s difficult to asses what stage in this fraught process Jagger and Richards had reached the evening Kooper worked on the track. Despite the claims against Richards of non-cooperation, a lot of work seems to have been done on this song, for the two officially released versions do not - according to Kooper himself – feature Al Kooper’s handiwork. Kooper played not keyboards but guitar at the session he attended.”
“(Due to) the affair between Jagger and Pallenberg, “Keith just refused to get down with it”.


•Philip Norman:
“With Keith against in the studio, the song sounded just awful – still and lifeless.”
Mick Jagger - vocals, maracas (both later removed)
Al Kooper - guitar (overdubbed at a second session and later removed by Jack Nitzche)
Keith Richards - guitar (overdubbed at a second session and most probably later removed by Jack Nitzche)
Andy Johns – engineer

This ‘awful’ version could be the one that ended up in the ‘Metamorphosis’ album, in 1975."

-[www.youtube.com] ("AND KEEF DiNDNT PLAY in NONE of those sessions....")

-[www.youtube.com] (view comment "I like all three versions of this song, but I love the feel on this one. It's funny that Keith doesn't play on any of them.")

-(From Keno)
"...Why it ended up on a Stones album is not known. There is a question about who is playing drums on the Metamorphosis cut. One thing for sure is that Keith Richards didn't play guitar on any of the session's tracks.

MEMO FROM TURNER (Metamorphosis version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Brian Jones, Steve Winwood & Al Kooper Bass: Bill Wyman Drums: Charlie Watts (?) or Jim Capali (?) Keyboards: Al Kooper

MEMO FROM TURNER (London Years/Performance version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Ry Cooder (Slide), Russ Titelman Bass: Jerry Scheff Drums: Gene Parsons Keyboards: Randy Newman"


When I first heard the album version in 1984, the first thing I thought was: this must be Jimmy Page (as he was credited on the sleeve), as it sounded nothing like Keith at all, but had a definite, late 60s heavy rock sound to it a la Led Zeppelin (a sound that Keith always stayed away from). That of course wasn't true, but it shows that from the very first listen I sensed that something was off in the guitar part that might have been done by Keith. Just my impression, but I feel sort of justified so many years later (as I never delved into this before this discussion) that my gut feeling wasn't wrong.

Sorry for detracting from the topic for so long, I will stop now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-24 22:10 by SomeGuy.

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SomeGuy

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DandelionPowderman

-[iorr.org], and also see these quotes:
LONDON – Olympic Sound Studios, 18 November 1968
•Sean Egan
“..., energies were focused on overdubs of ‘Memo From Turner’, a track earmarked for soundtrack of the Performance movie. As only overdubs were required, Watts and Wyman were not present. Not, to Kooper’s recollection, was Miller, with only Andy Johns accompanying himself, Jagger and Richards in the studio.
To the best of his recollection, there was already a Jagger vocal on the track when he began overdubbing with Richards.”
“It’s difficult to asses what stage in this fraught process Jagger and Richards had reached the evening Kooper worked on the track. Despite the claims against Richards of non-cooperation, a lot of work seems to have been done on this song, for the two officially released versions do not - according to Kooper himself – feature Al Kooper’s handiwork. Kooper played not keyboards but guitar at the session he attended.”
“(Due to) the affair between Jagger and Pallenberg, “Keith just refused to get down with it”.


•Philip Norman:
“With Keith against in the studio, the song sounded just awful – still and lifeless.”
Mick Jagger - vocals, maracas (both later removed)
Al Kooper - guitar (overdubbed at a second session and later removed by Jack Nitzche)
Keith Richards - guitar (overdubbed at a second session and most probably later removed by Jack Nitzche)
Andy Johns – engineer

This ‘awful’ version could be the one that ended up in the ‘Metamorphosis’ album, in 1975."

-[www.youtube.com] ("AND KEEF DiNDNT PLAY in NONE of those sessions....")

-[www.youtube.com] (view comment "I like all three versions of this song, but I love the feel on this one. It's funny that Keith doesn't play on any of them.")

-(From Keno)
"...Why it ended up on a Stones album is not known. There is a question about who is playing drums on the Metamorphosis cut. One thing for sure is that Keith Richards didn't play guitar on any of the session's tracks.

MEMO FROM TURNER (Metamorphosis version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Brian Jones, Steve Winwood & Al Kooper Bass: Bill Wyman Drums: Charlie Watts (?) or Jim Capali (?) Keyboards: Al Kooper

MEMO FROM TURNER (London Years/Performance version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Ry Cooder (Slide), Russ Titelman Bass: Jerry Scheff Drums: Gene Parsons Keyboards: Randy Newman"


When I first heard the album version in 1984, the first thing I thought was: this must be Jimmy Page (as he was credited on the sleeve), as it sounded nothing like Keith at all, but had a definite, late 60s heavy rock sound to it a la Led Zeppelin (a sound that Keith always stayed away from). That of course wasn't true, but it shows that from the very first listen I sensed that it couldn't be Keith playing it. Just my impression, but I feel sort of justified so many years later (as I never delved into this before this discussion) that my gut feeling wasn't wrong.

Sorry for detracting from the topic for so long, I will stop now.

Firstly, there are many versions of this track. Secondly, there are two guitars on the Metamorphosis version. One rhythm track, with some classic licks (Keith) and Al Kooper's track, which takes over gradually with lead guitar. Surely, it must be that track you don't think sounds like Keith? If you mean the other track then that's unfathomable to me.

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DandelionPowderman

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SomeGuy

Quote
DandelionPowderman

-[iorr.org], and also see these quotes:
LONDON – Olympic Sound Studios, 18 November 1968
•Sean Egan
“..., energies were focused on overdubs of ‘Memo From Turner’, a track earmarked for soundtrack of the Performance movie. As only overdubs were required, Watts and Wyman were not present. Not, to Kooper’s recollection, was Miller, with only Andy Johns accompanying himself, Jagger and Richards in the studio.
To the best of his recollection, there was already a Jagger vocal on the track when he began overdubbing with Richards.”
“It’s difficult to asses what stage in this fraught process Jagger and Richards had reached the evening Kooper worked on the track. Despite the claims against Richards of non-cooperation, a lot of work seems to have been done on this song, for the two officially released versions do not - according to Kooper himself – feature Al Kooper’s handiwork. Kooper played not keyboards but guitar at the session he attended.”
“(Due to) the affair between Jagger and Pallenberg, “Keith just refused to get down with it”.


•Philip Norman:
“With Keith against in the studio, the song sounded just awful – still and lifeless.”
Mick Jagger - vocals, maracas (both later removed)
Al Kooper - guitar (overdubbed at a second session and later removed by Jack Nitzche)
Keith Richards - guitar (overdubbed at a second session and most probably later removed by Jack Nitzche)
Andy Johns – engineer

This ‘awful’ version could be the one that ended up in the ‘Metamorphosis’ album, in 1975."

-[www.youtube.com] ("AND KEEF DiNDNT PLAY in NONE of those sessions....")

-[www.youtube.com] (view comment "I like all three versions of this song, but I love the feel on this one. It's funny that Keith doesn't play on any of them.")

-(From Keno)
"...Why it ended up on a Stones album is not known. There is a question about who is playing drums on the Metamorphosis cut. One thing for sure is that Keith Richards didn't play guitar on any of the session's tracks.

MEMO FROM TURNER (Metamorphosis version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Brian Jones, Steve Winwood & Al Kooper Bass: Bill Wyman Drums: Charlie Watts (?) or Jim Capali (?) Keyboards: Al Kooper

MEMO FROM TURNER (London Years/Performance version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Ry Cooder (Slide), Russ Titelman Bass: Jerry Scheff Drums: Gene Parsons Keyboards: Randy Newman"


When I first heard the album version in 1984, the first thing I thought was: this must be Jimmy Page (as he was credited on the sleeve), as it sounded nothing like Keith at all, but had a definite, late 60s heavy rock sound to it a la Led Zeppelin (a sound that Keith always stayed away from). That of course wasn't true, but it shows that from the very first listen I sensed that it couldn't be Keith playing it. Just my impression, but I feel sort of justified so many years later (as I never delved into this before this discussion) that my gut feeling wasn't wrong.

Sorry for detracting from the topic for so long, I will stop now.

Firstly, there are many versions of this track. Secondly, there are two guitars on the Metamorphosis version. One rhythm track, with some classic licks (Keith) and Al Kooper's track, which takes over gradually with lead guitar. Surely, it must be that track you don't think sounds like Keith? If you mean the other track then that's unfathomable to me.

One thing: I already changed my "sensed that it couldn't be Keith playing it" to "sensed that something was off in the guitar part that might have been done by Keith".
Secondly, the only thing I can think of is that my version of the album (early 80s German Decca issue, red label with black Decca logo) has another version on it than yours. I will listen to it again but I don't remember ever having heard any typical Keith 'lick' on the rhythm track whatsoever. And what I sensed back then, now turns out to be shared by others than just me.
I think I asked you on another issue if you have any source for what you claim, and I haven't seen any yet. I could repeat that question here.
But hey, all in good spirits mate.

Keith has a unique way of playing, easily recognisable.

And timeisonourside.com has Keith on rhythm guitar.

[timeisonourside.com]

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DandelionPowderman
Keith has a unique way of playing, easily recognisable.

And timeisonourside.com has Keith on rhythm guitar.

[timeisonourside.com]

Thanks for the link, but note that it says 'probable line up', but ok.
There may also be others who can appreciate Keith's unique way of playing, too.

“There was a lot of good genre-mashing going on before it all got a bit too separate,” adds Jagger, who was soaking up everything from the Clash to dance music at the time. ‘You had the end of punk and the beginnings of hip-hop — that kind of semi-rap thing, which you get a bit if you listen to ‘Miss You’ and ‘Shattered.'”

Mick Jagger

[www.rollingstone.com]

iorr is a hypnotized bunch this was about rap and now its who played guitar on turner again

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Nikkei
iorr is a hypnotized bunch this was about rap and now its who played guitar on turner again

There is semi-rap on both Turner-versions. Unavoidable that old debates will blossom

................... Under My Thumb ......



ROCKMAN

I think this is the closest thing Mick has done to rapping

will.i.am - T.H.E. (The Hardest Ever) ft. Mick Jagger, Jennifer Lopez

[www.youtube.com]

(from 3:30)

Anyway...... disco sucks, but rap swallows.

Rap - the ruination of blues based rock

Just one man's opinion, but it's right.

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Elmo Lewis


Rap - the ruination of blues based rock

What on earth are you on about?

The best Stones connection to rap was on the song Hold on to your hat

Hold on to your heart
Hold on to your hat
Don't give me no shit
Don't give me no crap
Hold on to your head
Don't give me no rap
I've had it up to here
With your yackety-yak

Given that Mick listens a lot to hip hop as it seems, its quite telling that he prefers to put rappers on songs instead of doing it himself (talk about knowing what you're good at), like with Skepta on England Lost or the then never realized collaboration with Missy Elliot on Hide Away

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mike567
Given that Mick listens a lot to hip hop as it seems, its quite telling that he prefers to put rappers on songs instead of doing it himself (talk about knowing what you're good at), like with Skepta on England Lost or the then never realized collaboration with Missy Elliot on Hide Away

TG theres no rapper on my copy of England Lost.