Quote
keithsman



Someone will comment in a minute that Brown Sugar is all Mick for instance to sway the discussion and try to turn it upside down, but even if you give Brown Sugar to Mick, what would that song have achieved without Keith's amazing intro and riff and general sound , it might have sounded like Testify or something from a Mick solo album.

On the other hand, if Mick wouldn't have come up with the basic Brown Sugar idea, this great song wouldn't have existed at all. Besides, there are some great live recording even before the official release (Essen'70 comes to mind) were it's obvious that the entire band was required to get that great soaring rock-vibe only the Rolling Stones could produce.

Quote
keithsman

Quote
Doxa

Quote
keithsman

Quote
Mathijs
Until the end of the 1960's, Keith wrote just about all of the music and parts of the lyrics, and Jagger the lyrics. Starting from 1969 Mick started to write more and more of the music, and the songs started to be really joint efforts. From 1985 on Keith seems to be fairly dried up, with Talk is Cheap his last truly great effort.

Mathijs

Absolutely agree with the first part of your post, Keith was definitely responsible for most of those great meaningful sounds and memerable songs in the 60's, and of course the masterpiece Exile was very much down to Keith and it's well documented that at that time Keith was very much relied upon, people waiting and waiting for the creative Keith to arrive and trying to work around Keith's hours of functioning.

But on iorr many posters focus on the Mick Songs.

But most fans are aware that the best music , the music this band is famous for, and 70% of the music that is played live is very much down to Keith and the sound he creates with those monster intros and killer riffs, that's what puts the chills down your spine musically speaking, of course it would be nothing without Mick's singing, Keith is the sound of the music, Mick is the voice, that's how I'm hearing it.

Someone will comment in a minute that Brown Sugar is all Mick for instance to sway the discussion and try to turn it upside down, but even if you give Brown Sugar to Mick, what would that song have achieved without Keith's amazing intro and riff and general sound , it might have sounded like Testify or something from a Mick solo album.

As for you thinking Keith dried up about 85' I'd say sure, but Mick dried up a whole lot more when it comes to writing great songs, and by the way i don't consider Crosseyed Heart dried up, far from it, someone needs to get Keith in the Studio and inspire those creative juices out of him, sadly Mick is no longer capable of doing that or willing to do that.

As typical, you really can't see such an honest question in trying to figure out the facts who did and what as anything else but a just another dick measure contest between Jagger and Richards. And we all know which one you suck.

- Doxa

A typical response from you, I'm just putting it out there as i see and hear it, the poster of the thread wants to know who is responsible for the music and songwriting credits for the Stones.
I thought that was an honest accurate account without going into your typical miss leading details.
If someone comes up to me and askes who writes the music for the Stones they don't want to read an essay on the assumed fantasy world of someone called Doxa, i don't tell them i have just the answer for you, there's this guy on iorr that loves Mick so much that he will convince you Mick Jagger did in fact write everything any good for the Stones and if you disagree it must be because you want to suck the lead guitarist.

Be honest Doxa the thread tittle is provocative, it's either designed to create a dick measuring contest or give the poster the credit of doubt it's a nieve question, it says Jagger Richards compositions, so it's a dick measuring contest and musically Keith wins, dress it up how you wish, Keith was the main songwriter in the peak era.

><

- Doxa

You gonna let me off that lightly Doxa, haha Doxa baby i love ya,
Expecting the rathe of your tongue any moment now ><

Quote
TheflyingDutchman

Quote
keithsman



Someone will comment in a minute that Brown Sugar is all Mick for instance to sway the discussion and try to turn it upside down, but even if you give Brown Sugar to Mick, what would that song have achieved without Keith's amazing intro and riff and general sound , it might have sounded like Testify or something from a Mick solo album.

On the other hand, if Mick wouldn't have come up with the basic Brown Sugar idea, this great song wouldn't have existed at all. Besides, there are some great live recording even before the official release (Essen'70 comes to mind) were it's obvious that the entire band was required to get that great soaring rock-vibe only the Rolling Stones could produce.

I think you hit the nail on the head , that's why Mick & Keith needed each other, Mick was always the spark that lights Keith's fire and visa versa and the Stones are an incredible cohesive unit.
Let's not forget Brian, he also made them a bit special in the early days.

No worries, keithsman, that's what we are like...

But, if someone comes to you, and asks 'hey who wrote wonderful tune the Stones played at One World show', what will you answer him? That "Keith is the genius and the main writer of the era" (something I, for example, agree with)? Was that really asked?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-30 17:11 by Doxa.

the problem as I see it, is it doesn't take much prodding for some folks to start measuring dicks...and that's pretty sad....cause it's never about that really....except for the very limited thinkers....and we've pretty much ID'd them.....thanks for the laughs this morning.

Is this right?

Keith songs:
Gimme Shelter
Angie
Happy
Ruby Tuesday (with Brian?)


Mick songs:
Brown Sugar
Miss You
It's Only Rock n' Roll
YCAGWYW
Sympathy for the Devil

Joint songs:
Midnight Rambler
Start Me Up
Tumbling Dice
Wild Horses
Honky Tonk Women
Street Fighting Man
Jumpin' Jack Flash
Paint it Black
Satisfaction

I would put JJF & Satisfaction towards being Keith's musically, words on paper don't make a song.
SFTD ended up being the bands song, i forget the name of the documentary but Keith had plenty of input, Mick started that off as a samba, it went on to be so much more. Another example really of the band making something good incredible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-30 19:07 by keithsman.

Wyman deserved a writing credit for Jumping Jack Flash.Paint it Black,Brian

Quote
Doxa
No worries, keithsman, that's what we are like...

But, if someone comes to you, and asks 'hey who wrote wonderful tune the Stones played at One World show', what will you answer him? That "Keith is the genius and the main writer of the era" (something I, for example, agree with)? Was that really asked?

- Doxa

Yeah you got me there Doxa, good point, nothing is black and white when you go into details.

What does Keith. Mean when he says he gives the band a riff or chord structure and lets them cook up something?

Quote
Taylor1
Wyman deserved a writing credit for Jumping Jack Flash.Paint it Black,Brian

Why Brian?

I read that it originally was supposed to be a Nanker Phelge credit,and figured Brian with his sitar added enough to get a credit. On a different topic ,I thought it was ridiculous to give K.D. Lang a credit for Anybody Seen My Baby.That is like giving the lyricist for Heaartbreak Hotel credit for Yer Blues

Quote
Taylor1
I read that it originally was supposed to be a Nanker Phelge credit,and figured Brian with his sitar added enough to get a credit. On a different topic ,I thought it was ridiculous to give K.D. Lang a credit for Anybody Seen My Baby.That is like giving the lyricist for Heaartbreak Hotel credit for Yer Blues

The melody is played by Keith on electric guitar, Brian adds some subtle (but beautiful) touches on sitar. Obviously, it was written on guitar, although Jack may have helped a bit with the melody - hence they considered a Nanker/Phelge-credit.

That's how I understood it anyway.

Quote
Taylor1
What does Keith. Mean when he says he gives the band a riff or chord structure and lets them cook up something?

Play it together a zillion times, so he can extract something from how it's sounding, I believe.

Quote
Doxa

Quote
keithsman

Quote
Mathijs
Until the end of the 1960's, Keith wrote just about all of the music and parts of the lyrics, and Jagger the lyrics. Starting from 1969 Mick started to write more and more of the music, and the songs started to be really joint efforts. From 1985 on Keith seems to be fairly dried up, with Talk is Cheap his last truly great effort.

Mathijs

Absolutely agree with the first part of your post, Keith was definitely responsible for most of those great meaningful sounds and memerable songs in the 60's, and of course the masterpiece Exile was very much down to Keith and it's well documented that at that time Keith was very much relied upon, people waiting and waiting for the creative Keith to arrive and trying to work around Keith's hours of functioning.

But on iorr many posters focus on the Mick Songs.

But most fans are aware that the best music , the music this band is famous for, and 70% of the music that is played live is very much down to Keith and the sound he creates with those monster intros and killer riffs, that's what puts the chills down your spine musically speaking, of course it would be nothing without Mick's singing, Keith is the sound of the music, Mick is the voice, that's how I'm hearing it.

Someone will comment in a minute that Brown Sugar is all Mick for instance to sway the discussion and try to turn it upside down, but even if you give Brown Sugar to Mick, what would that song have achieved without Keith's amazing intro and riff and general sound , it might have sounded like Testify or something from a Mick solo album.

As for you thinking Keith dried up about 85' I'd say sure, but Mick dried up a whole lot more when it comes to writing great songs, and by the way i don't consider Crosseyed Heart dried up, far from it, someone needs to get Keith in the Studio and inspire those creative juices out of him, sadly Mick is no longer capable of doing that or willing to do that.

As typical, you really can't see such an honest question in trying to figure out the facts who did and what as anything else but a just another dick measure contest between Jagger and Richards. And we all know which one you suck.

- Doxa

Thank you, Doxa, for taking care of both proportions and perspective here!

Quote
Rip This
the problem as I see it, is it doesn't take much prodding for some folks to start measuring dicks...and that's pretty sad....cause it's never about that really....except for the very limited thinkers....and we've pretty much ID'd them.....thanks for the laughs this morning.

No need to bring up the tiny todger incident...Keith apologized!
And thankfully so as he and Stones have been quite productive since then both live and to a lesser degree in the studio.
Imagine if Keith never apologized...there'd be more Mick solo projects, and probably little if any live shows...might have even been the end of the Stones...

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
Send It To me
Is this right?

Keith songs:
Gimme Shelter
Angie
Happy
Ruby Tuesday (with Brian?)


Mick songs:
Brown Sugar
Miss You
It's Only Rock n' Roll
YCAGWYW
Sympathy for the Devil

Joint songs:
Midnight Rambler
Start Me Up
Tumbling Dice
Wild Horses
Honky Tonk Women
Street Fighting Man
Jumpin' Jack Flash
Paint it Black
Satisfaction

I read somewhere that Ron came up with the riff to IORR and Bill - JJF

Quote
Taylor1
What does Keith. Mean when he says he gives the band a riff or chord structure and lets them cook up something?

Start Me Up is one example - Keith considered it a reggae lick, hence the over and over multiple takes - and then they decided to do a 'rock version', so the Stones did the Stones and after what, 2 or 3 runs of it, went back to the reggae. The take that became the LP/single version there is a vocal working mix, probably done in Paris before Mick finished it in NYC, that reveals the working state of how the vocals evolve. That, in essence, is a combination of Jagger finding what works and the producer/engineer saying No this is better, or, Do that again only an octave higher, etc.

SFTD - started out as a folk song; the band "got a hold of it", as in, as they started to play it, it evolved. The obvious was at hand - this is not a folk song.

Listen to Live With Me from LET IT BLEED and then on YA-YA'S and the band got a hold of it and turned it into a monster rock'n'roll song live.

Mick had an idea was relatively loose, as shown in GIMME SHELTER, playing the embryonic body of Brown Sugar. Keith got a hold of it, gave it the intro lick (although there is no documentation of this as far as I know) and very likely structured the song, let's say he arranged it, said Oh it needs a bridge and wrote the other part...

There are a few early run throughs of songs, JordyLicks69 has a great collection you can listen to - early runs of Shattered, Hang Fire, Neighbours and on and on... great examples of what happened with the general idea starting and then the band shaping them.

[www.youtube.com]

There you go.

Thanks for the link GasLightStreet, just listened to that isolated guartar on HTW, amazing, it's just all over it and completely structures the song in its entirety.

Quote
keithsman
Before the Stones made solo records I got the impression 70 % of the lyrics were Mick's and 70% of the music was Keith's.
After listening to their solo albums i have the same impression but also feel certain that some of the more meaningful material like Gimme Shelter is Keith's, and that the sound of the Stones is Keith's.

Now in resent decades that dynamic and ratio has changed, I'd say 70% of the music and lyrics are down to Mick.

I would also point out that Mick's best spell of writing in the early 70s had a lot of help from Mick Taylor who gets virtually no songwriting credits, but a lot of great songs during that period have Taylor all over them.

70% would be very conservative.

I would doubt that there are more than 3-4 songs on ABB that are primarily written by Keith.

1 of the 4 Licks songs and 1 of the 2 new songs on Grr are Keith compositions.

The rewritten lyrics for the bonus tracks on the reissues of Exile and Some Girls seem to be Mick-written.

And going by the interviews theyve done for the album they're currently making, its going to follow a similar pattern. I cant recall the exact quote but Keith mentioned something about Mick coming in with about 20-30 new songs or ideas for songs to the 4-5 that he had.

Quote
Gazza
I cant recall the exact quote but Keith mentioned something about Mick coming in with about 20-30 new songs or ideas for songs to the 4-5 that he had.

From Uncut: Nov. 2016

Keith vs. Mick

Q: Don Was told me that Mick‘s got 40 new songs.

Keith: Being prolific dont mean shit.I‘ve got three songs and they‘re dynamite....
I‘ve always got a few songs on the back burner and so does Mick - he writes a lot. I don‘t.
I tend to concentrate on two or three really interesting riffs or ideas, rather than being prolific.

Funny, I always remember it as 40 demos vs. three dynamite riffs...maybe he specifically said that in a different interview?
Whatever the case, Keith seemed a bit grumpy and nasty when giving the above answer...

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-01 00:21 by Hairball.

Thanks, Hairball.

So - three 'dynamite' songs by November 2016. So you'd think that 3 and a half years later that might have stretched to half an album's worth...

ROCKMAN

Ha good old Keith...working out the kinks of a single riff for days on end...

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Mick once said: "When I write a song, it is Jagger/Richards; when he writes a song, it is Jagger/Richards".

Quote
Gazza

Quote
keithsman
Before the Stones made solo records I got the impression 70 % of the lyrics were Mick's and 70% of the music was Keith's.
After listening to their solo albums i have the same impression but also feel certain that some of the more meaningful material like Gimme Shelter is Keith's, and that the sound of the Stones is Keith's.

Now in resent decades that dynamic and ratio has changed, I'd say 70% of the music and lyrics are down to Mick.

I would also point out that Mick's best spell of writing in the early 70s had a lot of help from Mick Taylor who gets virtually no songwriting credits, but a lot of great songs during that period have Taylor all over them.

70% would be very conservative.

I would doubt that there are more than 3-4 songs on ABB that are primarily written by Keith.

1 of the 4 Licks songs and 1 of the 2 new songs on Grr are Keith compositions.

The rewritten lyrics for the bonus tracks on the reissues of Exile and Some Girls seem to be Mick-written.

And going by the interviews theyve done for the album they're currently making, its going to follow a similar pattern. I cant recall the exact quote but Keith mentioned something about Mick coming in with about 20-30 new songs or ideas for songs to the 4-5 that he had.

To be honest do you think Mick would have it any other way, he's well known to be a control freak
( the commander these last few decades, do you think if Keith said I've got 10 tracks supiorior to yours and they are going in the album Mick would agree, no Keith knows that would be a waste of effort on his part. Obviously Keith can make music when he wants too, Crosseyed Heart shows Keith has nothing to prove in that department,
It is what it is these days, Mick Jagger solo Stones albums with Keith playing on them and being allowed or permitted about a third of the album if he's lucky.
It's basically Mick's way or the highway and Keith knows it. There is no winning with someone like that and as a result we get substandard product because it's not a collaboration.
Keith is either in denial about taking a back seat and letting Mick pull the shots or he has become incredibly lazy or both. Shame on him.

As for Mick coming in with 40 demos or songs and Keith having three, what does that tell you, all these years later no album, the demos must have been wanting as Stones material, and maybe finally Keith put his foot down and rejected them, otherwise we would have had a Stones album years ago or a Mick solo album. I'd say Mick's cornered himself.

OK we will finally get this Stones album but I'd rather have had a couple solo album's from Mick, Keith and Ronnie in the time it's taken to complete, and we know what it's going to consist of, stuff like the new single, it's OK but it's not worth waiting 15 years for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-01 13:24 by keithsman.

I think it's astonishing that people are both so partisan and divided and divisive on this issue. The nature of collaboration is mysterious, and it's very hard ultimately to work out who is responsible for what. Sometimes it's the "inspiration" from Ron Wood, the drum of Charlie, the bass rhythm of Bill etc ad infinitum, never mind who originates the "monster" riff, the insinuating melody or the captivating lyrics. All of this is true regardless of who begins the skeleton of the song, or where, whether they are separate or in the same room. Both Mick and Keith are astonishing in the body of work they have created individually and collectively. I know it's fun to discuss and know who does what, I love that as well, but there is a tipping point in everything, and WE will never know where or when that is.....

Quote
keithsman

Quote
Gazza

Quote
keithsman
Before the Stones made solo records I got the impression 70 % of the lyrics were Mick's and 70% of the music was Keith's.
After listening to their solo albums i have the same impression but also feel certain that some of the more meaningful material like Gimme Shelter is Keith's, and that the sound of the Stones is Keith's.

Now in resent decades that dynamic and ratio has changed, I'd say 70% of the music and lyrics are down to Mick.

I would also point out that Mick's best spell of writing in the early 70s had a lot of help from Mick Taylor who gets virtually no songwriting credits, but a lot of great songs during that period have Taylor all over them.

70% would be very conservative.

I would doubt that there are more than 3-4 songs on ABB that are primarily written by Keith.

1 of the 4 Licks songs and 1 of the 2 new songs on Grr are Keith compositions.

The rewritten lyrics for the bonus tracks on the reissues of Exile and Some Girls seem to be Mick-written.

And going by the interviews theyve done for the album they're currently making, its going to follow a similar pattern. I cant recall the exact quote but Keith mentioned something about Mick coming in with about 20-30 new songs or ideas for songs to the 4-5 that he had.

To be honest do you think Mick would have it any other way, he's well known to be a control freak
( the commander these last few decades, do you think if Keith said I've got 10 tracks supiorior to yours and they are going in the album Mick would agree, no Keith knows that would be a waste of effort on his part. Obviously Keith can make music when he wants too, Crosseyed Heart shows Keith has nothing to prove in that department,
It is what it is these days, Mick Jagger solo Stones albums with Keith playing on them and being allowed or permitted about a third of the album if he's lucky.
It's basically Mick's way or the highway and Keith knows it. There is no winning with someone like that and as a result we get substandard product because it's not a collaboration.
Keith is either in denial about taking a back seat and letting Mick pull the shots or he has become incredibly lazy or both. Shame on him.

As for Mick coming in with 40 demos or songs and Keith having three, what does that tell you, all these years later no album, the demos must have been wanting as Stones material, and maybe finally Keith put his foot down and rejected them, otherwise we would have had a Stones album years ago or a Mick solo album. I'd say Mick's cornered himself.

OK we will finally get this Stones album but I'd rather have had a couple solo album's from Mick, Keith and Ronnie in the time it's taken to complete, and we know what it's going to consist of, stuff like the new single, it's OK but it's not worth waiting 15 years for.

Your question is purely hypothetical, because:

Keith: "...he writes a lot. I don‘t."

That's the fact we know - coming directly from Keith's mouth. Like you said: "It is what it is". Why is it like that? Here your speculation sets in - Mick the control freak, Keith "being allowed or permitted about a third of the album if he's lucky" - leading to your conclusion that Keith is lazy because he knows "writing more would be a waste of effort on his part".

Basically, you conclude that Keith is lazy because Mick suppresses him, that Mick would reject Keith's songs anyway even if they are superior to Mick's songs.

If true, this Mick Jagger would be a truly mean & ill-spirited guy - is that the message you're trying to transport here?

I for one better stick to the facts we know:

"Mick writes a lot. I don‘t." - Keith Richards



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-01 18:10 by retired_dog.

I'm going to guess the 40 demos vs 3 songs is just a loose interpretation: Mick has a lot of stuff, Keith doesn't. So he said 3 songs. There's no way he's only got 3 songs. Mick probably has 80 demos but 40 was used to imply there's a lot of potential songs. Keith probably has a ton of riffs...

Anyone think Keith had all those riffs and licks etc before the SOME GIRLS and EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions? He may've had a few but he certainly seemed to be able to come up with stuff on the studio.

So that's all it probably is - a framework of A Lot vs Hardly Any with two arbitrary numbers.