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Winning Ugly VXII

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GasLightStreet

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TornAndFried
I always wondered why they didn't play this song live until I heard it on the Licks Tour. Like other classics like 'Rocks Off', 'Sway', 'Torn And Frayed' and 'Can't You Hear Me Knocking' these songs just sound much better on their original album versions. I wish Ronnie was a much better lead guitarist. He is "functional" at best. At worst he is mediocre.

Those you listed and a few others, including this one and Crazy Mama, and they've never done a decent version of She's So Cold as well as She Was Hot; for whatever reasons they can not play those live worth a shit. They're awful.

I've mentioned this elsewhere in the past but it is extremely frustrating that they can play Monkey Man excellently but they can't play Rocks Off etc worth a damn.

I have to disagree there.

Maybe,of all those mentioned,you could make an argument that they struggle with "She's So Cold" however,I have heard good live versions of all of those songs.

One of the best live versions of "Hand of Fate" were the first live versions in Frankfurt '76 but,some in 2002 as well.Maybe not at the same level.Still decent versions,though.

They usually struggle more with performing decent versions of "Miss You", "Sympathy for the Devil", and even "Brown Sugar" post -1973.

I can't remember who it was that posted a live She'S So Cold from some recent tour that was the best live version I've ever heard - point is, even with that, they've never come close to giving that song its due. They've been able to take some songs and go past the perfection of the studio version (Shattered, for me, in 1994-95; Start Me Up 1989-90; Honky Tonk Women 1975-76; Tumbling Dice 1994, 1997 and a few others, like Monkey Man...

Yet they simply can't produce something with such ease as the snappiness of the studio version of She Was Hot or the precision and space of She's So Cold yet they manage a pretty damn good version of Monkey Man, which is similar in its atmosphere to those 2 just mentioned.

It's part of the charm but also the frustration. It makes other things better, perhaps.

This song does not remind of She Was Cold or Hot or even Monkey Man. Monkey Man is definitely one of the best rock songs ever. However. these songs are so different in approach, sound and should not be compared to each other.

Hand of Fate still is a standout song because the coarse guitar licks are simply great.

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Chris Fountain
This song does not remind of She Was Cold or Hot or even Monkey Man. Monkey Man is definitely one of the best rock songs ever. However. these songs are so different in approach, sound and should not be compared to each other.

Hand of Fate still is a standout song because the coarse guitar licks are simply great.

That wasn't the point. Just that they have trouble playing some of these songs live, which is how Hand Of Fate is similar.

I think they've (on the rather few occasions it's been played) nailed She Was Hot perfectly. It ain't a hard song for Keith and the Beacon version with Lisa's shout is brilliant, capturing a cold, Windy City evening 110% musically. The version they did at the O2 last night 2007 was also great.

She's So Cold was from Roskilde 2014, yeah that was probably one of the most effective and close-to-the-studio versions they've ever done.

Seemingly, they need to include the intro to get into that 'snappy' SSC groove. I don't know why they keep omitting it.

How Charlie enters on the studio version is rock'n'roll masterclass.

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GasLightStreet

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Chris Fountain
This song does not remind of She Was Cold or Hot or even Monkey Man. Monkey Man is definitely one of the best rock songs ever. However. these songs are so different in approach, sound and should not be compared to each other.

Hand of Fate still is a standout song because the coarse guitar licks are simply great.

That wasn't the point. Just that they have trouble playing some of these songs live, which is how Hand Of Fate is similar.

Thanks for the clarification. Hey, It is strange how things changed - but Zion Williamson was becoming the real deal before this world changed. We'll see how the NFL Draft goes and how? - Glad Panthers have new coach.

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Chris Fountain

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GasLightStreet

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Chris Fountain
This song does not remind of She Was Cold or Hot or even Monkey Man. Monkey Man is definitely one of the best rock songs ever. However. these songs are so different in approach, sound and should not be compared to each other.

Hand of Fate still is a standout song because the coarse guitar licks are simply great.

That wasn't the point. Just that they have trouble playing some of these songs live, which is how Hand Of Fate is similar.

Thanks for the clarification. Hey, It is strange how things changed - but Zion Williamson was becoming the real deal before this world changed. We'll see how the NFL Draft goes and how? - Glad Panthers have new coach.

Way OT, but definitely looking forward to the draft, and I'm not really a big NFL fan. But it's so nice to have some normal news when I listen to the radio.

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Taylor1

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More Hot Rocks

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Taylor1
I mean replaced meaning equaled.And Ronnie had no input in Bill’s”replacement”.He wasn’t even a full member until Bill left. And if he did have a say in picking one, it would have maybe been a better choice.Jones may be a great bass player,but IMO has never had the right chemistry for this band

I guess you now more than Charlie

. Well,people who hate some of Mick’s solo albums or Stone’s songs like Streets of Love must know more than Mick.Let me ask you this,if Charlie had retired in 1994 and was replaced by Steve Jordan,or someonelse,would the band be as good?

Not sure of the point -- are they even as good since '94 WITH Charlie?

They've only had 2 studio albums since then (both which I love - contrary to the opinion of most), and I think they would have done just as well w/ Steve Jordan -- Keith's latest album is pretty amazing, don't think the drummer made much of a difference, the songs are great!


** edit -- I almost forgot! Hand of Fate ... fantastic track, it is in my Stones top 20 for sure!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-11 19:06 by LeonidP.

The point is Bill and Charlie were the best combo in rock.You can’t replace that.But ,I still think Voodoo Lounge and Bridges are full of terrific songs.I think they really miss Bill live.

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DandelionPowderman
Seemingly, they need to include the intro to get into that 'snappy' SSC groove. I don't know why they keep omitting it.

How Charlie enters on the studio version is rock'n'roll masterclass.

That's part of the issue - where's the detail of the intro? She Was Hot - very sharp, tight intro; live, it's a slopfest.

She's So Cold - very precise intro, single strings, clean playing, song comes in clean and with plenty of atmosphere; live - chords are just banged out and it's like Luke's X-wing rising out of the swamp, covered in gradeaux.

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Chris Fountain

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GasLightStreet

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Chris Fountain
This song does not remind of She Was Cold or Hot or even Monkey Man. Monkey Man is definitely one of the best rock songs ever. However. these songs are so different in approach, sound and should not be compared to each other.

Hand of Fate still is a standout song because the coarse guitar licks are simply great.

That wasn't the point. Just that they have trouble playing some of these songs live, which is how Hand Of Fate is similar.

Thanks for the clarification. Hey, It is strange how things changed - but Zion Williamson was becoming the real deal before this world changed. We'll see how the NFL Draft goes and how? - Glad Panthers have new coach.

I know it's OT so I'll keep it short, not sure where else to talk about it at the moment, but Zion got me to start paying attention to the Pelicans. New Orleans is not a basketball town. With Brees set to play 2 more years and Brady in the NFC South and Bridgewater in Carolina... if it happens it will be the most interesting season, for me as a Saints fan anyway, since 2009.

Back on subject, I've always thought of Hand Of Fate as a plodding song - it never really seems to get going. Perkins' solo sticks out like a red lump on the face and, to me, is a bit out of place ie maybe too much. I like it but it probably doesn't help.

I do like the song but it's not one I listen to often, and in regard to BLACK AND BLUE, I listen to Crazy Mama the most, then probably Memory Motel and Hot Stuff and once in a while Fool To Cry, because the single edit is so heavily edited. But as an overall album, Hand Of Fate fits in quite well considering the album is all over the place. It's just one of those songs... kind of like Can You Hear The Music or Turd On The Run... not something I'd just put on a playlist unless it's a specific playlist, like NEVER PLAYED STONES or something.

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Taylor1
I mean replaced meaning equaled.And Ronnie had no input in Bill’s”replacement”.He wasn’t even a full member until Bill left. And if he did have a say in picking one, it would have maybe been a better choice.Jones may be a great bass player,but IMO has never had the right chemistry for this band

Anybody who tries to "equal" somebody else is on a fool's errand....especially when entering a MegaBand.

Which is probably why Daryl fits well (and probably why they chose him).

I don't know the man, but in interviews he seems very content w/ his station in life and what he brings to the band. He doesn't seem to strive to be anything he's not...which is the key to happiness, IMO.

Ron is an(other) excellent example - he never tried to "equal Brian or Mick T" but rather, be his own man & bring his own sound - for better or worse.

I never really understood the fascination w/ Bill....but, I'm far from an expert on anything. All the post-Bill Albums were very good, IMO. I don't miss him in any real way.

but, again...that's just me...and what do I know? I just know that I know enough to know I don't know what makes Bill so special.

cosmic.

that and that I like Hand of Fate. Good stuff - with or without Bill.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-11 22:54 by stickyfingers101.

I had a longterm relationship which was Hand Of Fate ALL over the Place, the lyrics are spot on for that 2011-2017 period in my life.

One of the boys finest for sure! (Just wish Charlie would do that shuffle in the end of the tune when they play it live)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-12 00:10 by MadMax.

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stickyfingers101

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Taylor1
I mean replaced meaning equaled.And Ronnie had no input in Bill’s”replacement”.He wasn’t even a full member until Bill left. And if he did have a say in picking one, it would have maybe been a better choice.Jones may be a great bass player,but IMO has never had the right chemistry for this band

Anybody who tries to "equal" somebody else is on a fool's errand....especially when entering a MegaBand.

Which is probably why Daryl fits well (and probably why they chose him).

I don't know the man, but in interviews he seems very content w/ his station in life and what he brings to the band. He doesn't seem to strive to be anything he's not...which is the key to happiness, IMO.

Ron is an(other) excellent example - he never tried to "equal Brian or Mick T" but rather, be his own man & bring his own sound - for better or worse.

I never really understood the fascination w/ Bill....but, I'm far from an expert on anything. All the post-Bill Albums were very good, IMO. I don't miss him in any real way.

but, again...that's just me...and what do I know? I just know that I know enough to know I don't know what makes Bill so special.

cosmic.

that and that I like Hand of Fate. Good stuff - with or without Bill.

Listening to Atlantic City 1989 with Bill ,where the music is greatand every tour after he left that was never as good.Maybe it’s just a coincidence that Bill left after the 1990 tour



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-12 00:42 by Taylor1.

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GasLightStreet

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TornAndFried
I always wondered why they didn't play this song live until I heard it on the Licks Tour. Like other classics like 'Rocks Off', 'Sway', 'Torn And Frayed' and 'Can't You Hear Me Knocking' these songs just sound much better on their original album versions. I wish Ronnie was a much better lead guitarist. He is "functional" at best. At worst he is mediocre.

Those you listed and a few others, including this one and Crazy Mama, and they've never done a decent version of She's So Cold as well as She Was Hot; for whatever reasons they can not play those live worth a shit. They're awful.

I've mentioned this elsewhere in the past but it is extremely frustrating that they can play Monkey Man excellently but they can't play Rocks Off etc worth a damn.

You are correct on all of these. And the simple reason is that Keith does not play the full riffs/sequences. He alters them or drops out. Hand Of Fate is a perfect example. Compare it to the 76 version where he is constantly playing, as opposed to the later ones where he stops and leaves gaps in the transition from the open G typical chord hammer-ons to the first position twangy riff.

Since 72 he has not played the intro to Rocks Off correctly/fully. I think he does the same on Monkey Man. He changes the intros' riffing, adds stops or leaves out parts. Causes the grooves to be completely altered.

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JMARKO

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GasLightStreet

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TornAndFried
I always wondered why they didn't play this song live until I heard it on the Licks Tour. Like other classics like 'Rocks Off', 'Sway', 'Torn And Frayed' and 'Can't You Hear Me Knocking' these songs just sound much better on their original album versions. I wish Ronnie was a much better lead guitarist. He is "functional" at best. At worst he is mediocre.

Those you listed and a few others, including this one and Crazy Mama, and they've never done a decent version of She's So Cold as well as She Was Hot; for whatever reasons they can not play those live worth a shit. They're awful.

I've mentioned this elsewhere in the past but it is extremely frustrating that they can play Monkey Man excellently but they can't play Rocks Off etc worth a damn.

You are correct on all of these. And the simple reason is that Keith does not play the full riffs/sequences. He alters them or drops out. Hand Of Fate is a perfect example. Compare it to the 76 version where he is constantly playing, as opposed to the later ones where he stops and leaves gaps in the transition from the open G typical chord hammer-ons to the first position twangy riff.

Since 72 he has not played the intro to Rocks Off correctly/fully. I think he does the same on Monkey Man. He changes the intros' riffing, adds stops or leaves out parts. Causes the grooves to be completely altered.

Great observations ,I remember when I posted on stonesdougs site years ago and I was getting killed for pointing that out.
Of course my usual tactful way of putting things probably didn’t help( “ WTF is Keith doing? ) during a time when he was basically off limits.
He just beat the hell out of that guitar for a straight two hours back in the 70s and it’s probably been too much for him later in his career.
I eventually accepted it, my theory is he’s too proud to say it but those hands- I mean let’s be real, it makes my knuckles ache just looking at them.

My favorite track from the Black And Blue Album. A real great Stones song!!

....and the growl...I mean....come on....

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Rip This
....and the growl...I mean....come on....

Yeah. That Bill Cosby "Fat Albert" voice. I remember him doing that during "Midnight Rambler" during the L.A. shows in '75. Weird.

I agree with GasLightStreet that "Hand of Fate" is a plodding song. I think it's kind of paint-by-numbers Stones. Never really takes off. Sounds like they were sitting down while recording it.

It's probably the song that's described on pg. 52 in the Crawdaddy article posted the "Magazine Articles" thread.

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stickyfingers101

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Taylor1
I mean replaced meaning equaled.And Ronnie had no input in Bill’s”replacement”.He wasn’t even a full member until Bill left. And if he did have a say in picking one, it would have maybe been a better choice.Jones may be a great bass player,but IMO has never had the right chemistry for this band

I never really understood the fascination w/ Bill....but, I'm far from an expert on anything. All the post-Bill Albums were very good, IMO. I don't miss him in any real way.

Bill had a heave to his culture of playing. It's way more evident live than in the studio.

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GasLightStreet

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stickyfingers101

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Taylor1
I mean replaced meaning equaled.And Ronnie had no input in Bill’s”replacement”.He wasn’t even a full member until Bill left. And if he did have a say in picking one, it would have maybe been a better choice.Jones may be a great bass player,but IMO has never had the right chemistry for this band

I never really understood the fascination w/ Bill....but, I'm far from an expert on anything. All the post-Bill Albums were very good, IMO. I don't miss him in any real way.

Bill had a heave to his culture of playing. It's way more evident live than in the studio.

can you explain what this means?

and gimme some tracks to listen to that illustrate the point....

much appreciated!

sticky

Try Just My Imagination from Hampton 1981, Sticky.





[www.youtube.com]

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DandelionPowderman
Try Just My Imagination from Hampton 1981, Sticky.





[www.youtube.com]

thanks!

but what does "having a heave to his culture of playing" mean?

it's not your post, but....just wondering what that means, if you know.

Probably that Bill comes from a different school of bass players, rooted in 50s rock'n'roll - where the swing was an important feature in his bass motifs. For instance, more audible and distinct walking bass patterns, locked in with the drums vs an underlying foundation with a less distinct sound (to be a bit tabloid).

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DandelionPowderman
Probably that Bill comes from a different school of bass players, rooted in 50s rock'n'roll - where the swing was an important feature in his bass motifs. For instance, more audible and distinct walking bass patterns, locked in with the drums vs an underlying foundation with a less distinct sound (to be a bit tabloid).

thanks for the input...you've given me something to listen more intently for!

much appreciated. Always good to get a "new" take on "old favorites"

dig it.

The live versions of HOF from 76 and the El Mocombo version from the following year are smokin' hot.


Re: Bill's contribution to the Stone's live sound, he gave their songs menacing quality. Everything sounded slightly dangerous. This is even present on the otherwise "clean" sound of the SW and UJ tour. They never had that again after he left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-14 19:47 by ryanpow.

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stickyfingers101

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GasLightStreet

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stickyfingers101

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Taylor1
I mean replaced meaning equaled.And Ronnie had no input in Bill’s”replacement”.He wasn’t even a full member until Bill left. And if he did have a say in picking one, it would have maybe been a better choice.Jones may be a great bass player,but IMO has never had the right chemistry for this band

I never really understood the fascination w/ Bill....but, I'm far from an expert on anything. All the post-Bill Albums were very good, IMO. I don't miss him in any real way.

Bill had a heave to his culture of playing. It's way more evident live than in the studio.

can you explain what this means?

and gimme some tracks to listen to that illustrate the point....

much appreciated!

sticky

I'll dig around and try to find the ones I know of. Dande understands it well, I'm sure he'll post whatever, too.

Out of all the live performances that are on YouTube, it's excellently noticeable in the 1981-82 ones. Under My Thumb has some heave going on in places.

By heave I mean it sounds like the song is about to fall off the rails but there's this weird time lag, where it almost goes around the object, and comes back - he does that by dragging the notes a bit, by not playing when expected, by playing a bit early - any and all, sometimes.

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ryanpow
The live versions of HOF from 76 and the El Mocombo version from the following year are smokin' hot.


Re: Bill's contribution to the Stone's live sound, he gave their songs menacing quality. Everything sounded slightly dangerous. This is even present on the otherwise "clean" sound of the SW and UJ tour. They never had that again after he left.

Agree 100 percent.His playing was great .I particularly like him on Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out and BrusselsandFlashpoint

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Taylor1

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ryanpow
The live versions of HOF from 76 and the El Mocombo version from the following year are smokin' hot.


Re: Bill's contribution to the Stone's live sound, he gave their songs menacing quality. Everything sounded slightly dangerous. This is even present on the otherwise "clean" sound of the SW and UJ tour. They never had that again after he left.

Agree 100 percent.His playing was great .I particularly like him on Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out and BrusselsandFlashpoint

Get Yer Ya Yas is dope...I'll give it's 4 billionth listen w/ more focus on Bill.

Mick T. always got the brunt of my attention from Brussels...the dude could play. I had this vision of Keith thinking "Ok..this guy's too good...get him out of the band!"

hahahaha!

I always attributed the "menacing" sound to the fact that the Stones were simply less "Vegas" (ie. Polished?) and simply more "raw" overall Back in Da Day....

going back w/ new ears...thanks all!

Hand Of Fate live in Paris 1976

[www.youtube.com]