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jbwelda

Not only that but often the Stones recordings were of somewhat less than state of the art in recording technology because they used less than the best studios, and hence some sketchy sounding master tapes were used for final mixdowns etc.

This would explain the dearth of available outtakes from certain sessions released as bonus tracks or as "vault" releases, and would also explain how so many studio outtakes and seemingly pro recorded live sessions got out into the bootleg world, when the abandoned masters were "discovered" by people with access to studio archives and then purloined and released via underground sources.

jb

Not true at all. The Stones have just about always recorded in the absolute best studio's available in their time, always trying out the newest studio's with the newest most modern technology. The only acception is Pathe Marconi in 1977 - 1980, but even that Studio 2 was equipped with excellent equipment, and when the Stones recorded there the best and most expensive microphones, pre-amps and compressors/limiters were brought in. They are the Stones after all, with basically unlimited funds.

The reason why we have so many outtakes is that they had a habit of making studio mix-downs on tape for members to bring back to the homes and hotels to listen to, which they also did with live shows. The 1977 - 1980 Marconi tapes are available as a French engineer ran a lead from the console of Studio 2 to the console of the vocal studio and recorded just about everything.

Mathijs

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RWFish
I think you're wrong about this. L&G was originally released to theaters w/ quadrophonic capabilities. It was supposed to simulate being at a live Rolling Stones Show. I saw it at the Biograph theater in January '74 with the quad sound - it sounded much better than the DVD/CD release. I agree that the sound / mix on the DVD/CD is horrible - I rarely listen to it because it is so bad. It's really disappointing that the DVD/CD becomes the audio representation of that tour. The Stones need a 'Giles Martin' to oversee a project such as this. Surely, if someone,[who cared about the significance of this recording,]had spent some time with the masters they could have done a better job. The STP tour was amazing; the set list, the band, and Mick Taylor really shined on this tour.

The Biograph Theater in Chicago where John Dillinger was gunned down?


plexi

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Mathijs

The 1977 - 1980 Marconi tapes are available as a French engineer ran a lead from the console of Studio 2 to the console of the vocal studio and recorded just about everything.

Mathijs

That's interesting. Mathijs, does it also mean that there are some better sounding, proper recordings of the same out-takes?

- Doxa

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Doxa

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Mathijs

The 1977 - 1980 Marconi tapes are available as a French engineer ran a lead from the console of Studio 2 to the console of the vocal studio and recorded just about everything.

Mathijs

That's interesting. Mathijs, does it also mean that there are some better sounding, proper recordings of the same out-takes?

- Doxa

They sound pretty good. I guess the key is to get hold of low generation recordings?

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 12:17 by Erik_Snow.

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Erik_Snow

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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Mathijs

The 1977 - 1980 Marconi tapes are available as a French engineer ran a lead from the console of Studio 2 to the console of the vocal studio and recorded just about everything.

Mathijs

That's interesting. Mathijs, does it also mean that there are some better sounding, proper recordings of the same out-takes?

- Doxa

They sound pretty good. I guess the key is to get hold of low generation recordings?

Several different sources of the same takes, for that era.
For examples of the best/near perfect quality versions, get the allready legendary bootlegs "Better Results" (DAC/OBR) and "Accident Will Happen" (VGP)

Thanks guys. Yeah, there are 'pretty good' and 'near perfect' quality recordings, but I was thinking that despite whatever has been released in bootleg markets, there might be some actually 'perfect' quality recordings we might not heard of yet. Just a (wishful) thought.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 12:18 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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Erik_Snow

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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Mathijs

The 1977 - 1980 Marconi tapes are available as a French engineer ran a lead from the console of Studio 2 to the console of the vocal studio and recorded just about everything.

Mathijs

That's interesting. Mathijs, does it also mean that there are some better sounding, proper recordings of the same out-takes?

- Doxa

They sound pretty good. I guess the key is to get hold of low generation recordings?

Several different sources of the same takes, for that era.
For examples of the best/near perfect quality versions, get the allready legendary bootlegs "Better Results" (DAC/OBR) and "Accident Will Happen" (VGP)

Thanks guys. Yeah, there are 'pretty good' and 'near perfect' quality recordings, but I was thinking that despite whatever has been released in bootleg markets, there might be some actually 'perfect' quality recordings we might not heard of yet. Just a (wishful) thought.

- Doxa

I don't want to spoil a party

The Rolling Stones - Complete Recording Sessions 1962-2012 by Martin Elliott
Extract from Foreword by Chris Kimsey

Chris Kimsey's description of the 'management'of the Stones recordings is quite startling. Clearly money seems to be no object, but that rather contradicts the view that Mick (in a purely business sense) wants to keep costs down and checks 'every detail'.
Also, in regards to attention to detail....would valuable assets (ie master tapes) be kept in an environment where water damage was not a remote possibility? In other words, a sixth floor office or something similar would surely have been safer. Also the material recorded at their Mobile going astray and the tale of the RRCircus film footage (being found in a shed)......all seems very chaotic. One assumes Prince Rupert was looking just at the finances.

Well, aren't Chris Kimsey saying that what was lost due to a flood was his log books, but not the actual master tapes (which I guess where preserved better)?

I wonder which album that 'lost' Columbia album was.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 14:41 by Doxa.

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Doxa
Well, aren't Chris Kimsey saying that what was lost due to a flood was his log books, but not the actual master tapes (which I guess where preserved better)?

I wonder which album that 'lost' Columbia album was.

- Doxa

Aah...yes I think I misread, thanks.

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jlowe

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Doxa
Well, aren't Chris Kimsey saying that what was lost due to a flood was his log books, but not the actual master tapes (which I guess where preserved better)?

I wonder which album that 'lost' Columbia album was.

- Doxa

Aah...yes I think I misread, thanks.

Well, an irony is that the Stones sessions are generally very sloppily documentated - compare that, for example, to the Beatles - and as there happen once to be a detailed documentation it got lost due to a flood....

- Doxa

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Doxa

I wonder which album that 'lost' Columbia album was.

- Doxa

I believe, EOMS. Similar story was told in Musician April 1987 # 102

Rolling Stones on CD: You Can Get What You Need.
By Scott Isler

Nothing brought that home to Calbi like working on Exile, his self-described "favorite record" when it originally came out. "Exile On Main Street was probably the most perplexing one of all" the Columbia Stones CDs, he says. "The master tape sounded so drastically different from the record that was out on the market. I wouldn't want to insult anybody, but the master tape I had was dreadful. It was very muddy and there was very little separation between everything. It was obvious that whoever mastered the album did something magical to it, something which I couldn't figure out. I worked for two or three days on it, and I just gave up. I thought maybe over the years the tape had lost some quality. I couldn't get it to jump out. I did the best I could.

"Three days after I sent out the final product, they found another tape. It was an equalized tape done when they cut the record. I put it on, and it's phenomenal. With the help of some people at Columbia, we stopped production on what we had, and went back and actually used the equalized master that was done for [vinyl] disc. It just sounds fantastic.

All this just supports exactly what I said in my last post. Most of this has been general knowledge over the past four decades. I do appreciate pointing out some of my misconceptions, but most of what I asserted stands the test of truth and time.

The other thing I would add is that hindsight is 20/20. While it may seem short sighted to have kept the documentation of sessions in a basement that flooded, no one would have foreseen that possibility and putting them up on a sixth floor would have no doubt prevented that...only to have that building burn down or something. The only "safe" place to store something like this would be in a deep earth vault inside a fire and everything else proof safe...and digs like that are expensive and hard to come by.

Also note that no one "officially" saved the session documents, the producer or other third parties took it on themselves to do so. Seems strange, but that's how it often happens if you do not have a major label and all their administrative overhead looking after you (and looking after themselves, protecting their assets).

jb



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 18:20 by jbwelda.

Ladies and Gentlemen would benefit a lot from a brand new mix from the multitracks. I wonder why they did not do so when the 2010 theatrical re-release was being put together. The one night only screening I went to in my local cinema of this managed to make things even worse as the projectionist had somehow managed to misconfigure the sound system so only the bass speakers were working!

I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to keep (and remaster) the original mix was down to legal complications, as I recall Led Zeppelin had similar issues when re-releasing The Song Remains the Same with not being able to change any of the video elements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-22 05:38 by ChrisMahavishnu.