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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: bv ()
Date: May 18, 2020 19:57

There are very few differences between Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. These five countries form the Nordic countries. We do all have social democratic governments, with a public health system. Iceland is a small island with just 360,000 people, so they have been doing great in testing and control of the virus, being quite small.

Norway, Denmark and Finland do all have approx 5-6 million people population. When the corona virus hit us, all thee countries had political shutdown. I.e. the governments take the final decision. As for Norway, the FHI, public health experts, and the politicians, have been in tune within 80% of all recommendations at all times. FHI give advice to the politicians, then the politicians make the laws, regulations and shutdown rules week by week.

Sweden, with 11 million people, i.e. approx double vs Norway, Denmark, Finland, have been following advice and recommendations given by the health authorities all the time. I have not seen any politicians at the Swedish press conferences. Anders Tegnell is State Epidemiologist of the Public Health Agency of Sweden. His group of health experts have been doing all advices on TV since the virus hit us in back in March this year.

At some point both Anders Tegnell, and other virus experts in Sweden, have been saying that the country must move on, and that you can not stop the virus. Sure there are advices about distance etc in Sweden too, but from pictures and daily life, Sweden is as far away from the shutdown we have seen in Italy and Spain, as it is possible to get. Schools and kindergarten never closed. Also, they did not isolate the homes for elderly (nursing homes) back in March. In Norway, all nursing homes were shut out from visits long time before the shutdown of the rest on March 12. Protecting the old people has been essential, and this is probably one reasons why you see differences in different countries.

This is a new report dated yesterday, presenting Anders Tegnell and his thoughts:

Finland better at protecting seniors from virus, says Swedish state epidemiologist (YLE Finland 17 May 2020)

Anders Tegnell said that it could take up to two years to know which country adopted the right approach to the crisis.

Finland has performed far better than Sweden with regard to protecting the elderly from the novel coronavirus outbreak, according to Anders Tegnell, Sweden's state epidemiologist.

"In this matter, we in Sweden can learn from Finland so that we could be just as effective," said the face of the country's unique response to the coronavirus pandemic.

As of Friday, Sweden had recorded 3,646 deaths from Covid-19, the disease caused by the virus and public health officials have not been able to bring the numbers down. The death toll in Finland on Friday was 287.

In Sweden, deaths from the disease among nursing home residents have been far higher than in other Nordic countries, with the capital region in Stockholm leading the count.

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 19:59 by bv.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: daspyknows ()
Date: May 18, 2020 20:00

Also, Sweden has a much more robust public health system than most countries, especially compared to the US.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Javadave ()
Date: May 18, 2020 21:08

When I was in Sweden in the Summer of 2014, I caught the 14 On Fire show in Stockholm, then spent a month vacationing on the West Coast in the Bohuslan region north of Gothenburg.

The handle on my travel bag broke during the trip, and I needed something more functional for the return to the U.S., so my father and I drove off one morning from Ragordsvik, the quiet little seaside village we were at, to a small inland city called Udevalla which had a large shopping mall where I could find my replacement luggage.

When we got back to Ragordsvik, my extended family was outside on my Swedish Aunt Kajsa’s porch, enjoying wine, beer, hors d’oeuvres and a lovely midsummer afternoon. My cousin’s asked how the shopping excursion had gone. I told them that it had been fine, that I’d found just what I needed, but I had been surprised how much the other people at the shopping mall had reminded me of being in American shopping malls. Instead of the thin, naturally handsome people I was used to seeing in Sweden, there were many overweight, heavily tattooed people at the mall. Without dropping a beat, my Aunt blurted out, “Oh, those were Norwegians!”, which resulted in convulsive fits of laughter among all my cousins and siblings.

So, my take on it, is that, sure, BV is correct in pointing out the similarities between the Nordic countries as far as political and civic structure, but there are vast differences and rivalries between those countries.

First of all, the Finns aren’t even considered Scandinavians because their language is completely different than the others. The Swedes and the Danes are the old money of the region, and like my dear Aunt Kajsa, can get a little snooty. They clearly resent the newfound affluence of their oil-rich cousins the Norwegians, and complain that despite all their wealth, their highways are abysmal, and they mooch off of the superior Swedish medical and academic establishment. Iceland is considered barren and remote, while the hearty pioneering spirit of it’s inhabitants earns respect.

These are just my observations as an outsider, though, so take them with a grain of salt. There are plenty of fat Swedes, too. One thing that struck me on that visit was how much more ethnically diverse Sweden has become since my childhood visits. They have clearly had large waves of immigration, which was a hot topic between my more conservative and more progressive relatives during our visit, and continues to be this day.

Also, to smooth over any rough feelings my shopping mall story may give BV and the other Norwegians, I’ll share one more story.

On my previous trip to Sweden I flew into Gothenburg via Amsterdam on an SAS flight, and was picked up by my parents. As we drove off to Ragardsvik, my father who was born in Sweden and moved to the U.S. as a 22 year old, asked me how the flight was. I told him that I had been reminded how aesthetically beautiful the Swedes were on my flight into Gothenburg, compared to the people who had been on my flight from the U.S. to Amsterdam. I commented that in my experience, the Swedes and the Thai people were the prettiest I had encountered, to which my dad responded, “huh, I always thought it was the Norwegians”, which raised the eyebrows of my Louisiana born mother.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 22:20 by Javadave.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: bv ()
Date: May 18, 2020 21:12

May be Sweden is doing the right thing. If we never get a vaccine.

Norway have less than 1% immunity from the corona virus, right now. The calculation is 0.7 fatality rate, 233 deaths, 35,000 total cases of which just 8,257 of the cases are verified.

Sweden have 3,700 deaths, 30,000 confirmed cases. If we assume 0.7% fatality, they may have half a million people with immunity. Out of a population of 11 mill that is giving 5% immunity.

If there never is a vaccine, Sweden will have 60% immunity in 12 months time, and 90% by the end of next year, while the rest of us are still not immune at all.

But ... I hear from more and more experts they will have one of the 100+ vaccine candidates ready within a year, tested and approved, and with all the money involved in getting it to the market, it will be out half a year after that in billions of samples, i.e. mid to late 2021. Mind you most of the vaccines have been in the works since early spring, some even from January, when WHO supplied the virus signature to labs across the world, so that vaccine works might start.

Sweden i.e. Tegnell have said they do NOT have a strategy of getting immunity, but they want life to be as normal as possible, with an R around 1, as far as I understand. With Stockholm at 50% or more immunity, life will for sure be easier in Stockholm, than in many other places across the globe.

Bjornulf

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: May 18, 2020 21:13

Finland reopened schools last Thursday. Some quotes from today's news:

    [*]6,380 lab-confirmed infections as of Monday (18.5), up by 33 since Sunday
    [*]300 deaths due to Covid-19 complications as of Monday (up by 2 from Sunday)[*]134 people in hospital, 29 of them in intensive care as of Monday (18.5)
    [*]Pupils, staff quarantined at two Helsinki schools
    [*]Dozens of pupils in Porvoo and Sipoo are back home after exposure to Covid-19
    [*]Many students in Porvoo absent from affected school on Monday
    [*]Contact tracing app pilot begins in Vaasa


The air carrier Finnair plans to open some of its European and Asian routes in July.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: bv ()
Date: May 18, 2020 21:26

How did the virus spread in Norway?

First we had 400-500 people who got infected with the corona virus during their winter holiday ski travels to Tirol Austria, late February. They were on average age 45, many male, so most of them survived the virus.

When the ski tourists arrived home from Austria, to Oslo Airport, quite a few took a taxi home. Many taxi drivers are immigrants from Somalia. They got the virus and took it home to their large families of several family generations. Then the virus multiplied and made damage. The information from the authorities was in Norwegian and English, not really Somali. When the Somali and other immigrant groups went high in the numbers of people hospitalized from Covid-19, the authorities took action, and we do now have very little virus in the country. For a while back in late March, there was a steep learning curve at the hospitals, and at the health authorities.

The less money you have, the less space you have at home, and the more chance it is for you or family members to pass on the virus. The virus does not care if you are rich, poor, left or right, but it is for sure more dangerous to live in a home with many people, essential workers, with taxi drivers, people who clean at hospitals, drive the bus, and they have to go to work, so that the rest of us get clean hospital beds, the bus trip we need, and so on.

Bjornulf

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: daspyknows ()
Date: May 18, 2020 21:42

Staying safe isn't just about hygiene and distance. It's about time, too.

[www.cnn.com]

This is another thing to consider. Also explains why lower income people have a harder time staying safe at home. If a family of four lives in a huge house it is easier to isolate at home than if the family lives in one room. Also explains why some occupations are higher risk than others and why people shopping in stores and being out in public should wear masks to protect others.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: May 18, 2020 21:50

Okay, Sweden then. There are some factors involved which I think can explain the relatively high numbers of infected and deceased here. First of all I think we were slow to react in the initial stage of the pandemic.
People coming home from holidays in inflicted countries should have been quarantined and stronger measures should have been introduced in the earliest stages. Politicians have been sidestepped here.
Which most people think is a good thing. Simply because politicians don't know anything. Science is Greek to them. So our state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell is calling all the shots. From 6 am to 10 pm, every day.

There are different strategies here. Anders Tegnell doesn't believe there will be a vaccine in short enough time. And he doesn't believe in shutting down societies. Because he knows it won't work in the long run.
His strategy is beginning to receive som criticism though. 22 professors wrote a critical article weeks ago. And journalists are starting to raise their voices. The study about herd immunity from Spain was ominous.
The population there haven't reached herd immunity in high enough numbers. Which epidemiologists here were counting on. So basically, their theory has been proven wrong.

To be continued...

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: rbp ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:02

COVID-19 protective immunity article from The Lancet.
[www.thelancet.com]

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: stickyfingers101 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:04

So....are the obesity rates low in the Nordic countries?

I assume they are...at least lower than the US (which isn't saying much b/c we're up to like 30-40%)

[www.nbcnews.com]

not nearly enough focus is being put on how this is linked to the death toll (esp. among people under 65).

obesity is linked to basically all of the "pre-existing health conditions" that make this illness more deadly.

the US is simply in very poor health, so it's no surprise that our death-rate and death-toll is high.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: stickyfingers101 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:06

Quote
daspyknows
Also, Sweden has a much more robust public health system than most countries, especially compared to the US.

we have awesome health care....best in the world...if you can afford it, that is.

and, simply put, many Americans have obesity-related illnesses that all the health care in the world can do nothing about.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:11

We have problems with obesity here in Sweden also. Even obesity among kids and young adults since many tend to spend too much time in front of computer screens (or smartphones).
But I guess it's even worse in the USA?

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Beast ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:17

Quote
stickyfingers101
So....are the obesity rates low in the Nordic countries?

For details, hover your mouse over whichever country on this world obesity map:

[www.worldobesitydata.org]

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:22

..continue (see above): The health care system has stood up pretty well here. Which, of course, was prio number one for the authorities. And the R-rate is below 1 now. Even in Stockholm.
Stockholm, by the way, has been a cluster for this virus. And the so called "utsatta områden", "deprived areas", where mostly immigrants live. The rest of the country is less affected.
Some counties hardly at all.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: stickyfingers101 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:29

Quote
Beast
Quote
stickyfingers101
So....are the obesity rates low in the Nordic countries?

For details, hover your mouse over whichever country on this world obesity map:

[www.worldobesitydata.org]

so, I guess 3.8% of Japanese are Sumo Wrestlers.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: stickyfingers101 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:35

Quote
Stoneage
..continue (see above): The health care system has stood up pretty well here. Which, of course, was prio number one for the authorities. And the R-rate is below 1 now. Even in Stockholm.
Stockholm, by the way, has been a cluster for this virus. And the so called "utsatta områden", "deprived areas", where mostly immigrants live. The rest of the country is less affected.
Some counties hardly at all.

Yeah, the US has some similar trends.....mostly isolated places.

[www.usatoday.com]

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: nellcote'71 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:40

Governors from New York, California and Texas said Monday that professional sports could resume in their respective states in the near future.

[www.espn.com]

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:48

Quote
nellcote'71
Governors from New York, California and Texas said Monday that professional sports could resume in their respective states in the near future.

[www.espn.com]

I think that would be a mistake, Nellcote. Huge gatherings of people. That is a no-no. And a hotbed for mass infection...

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: nellcote'71 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:50

They are talking about no fans in attendance.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:53

I see, nellcote. I hear that the German football league has started again. Without fans attendance also.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: nellcote'71 ()
Date: May 18, 2020 23:57

Quote
Stoneage
I see, nellcote. I hear that the German football league has started again. Without fans attendance also.

I streamed some of the German football games this weekend.
Kind of weird without fans but it was good to watch live sports.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: mrjones ()
Date: May 19, 2020 01:04

video: [www.youtube.com] Trump taking hydroxychloroquine. no comment.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: daspyknows ()
Date: May 19, 2020 01:05

Quote
stickyfingers101
Quote
daspyknows
Also, Sweden has a much more robust public health system than most countries, especially compared to the US.

we have awesome health care....best in the world...if you can afford it, that is.

and, simply put, many Americans have obesity-related illnesses that all the health care in the world can do nothing about.

Yes we do but most can't afford it. The insurance system does a good job of limiting treatment unless you can afford it. When my mom was fighting cancer her medical bills paid by insurance were close to $2 million over 5 years but her out of pocket was $500K. Without the $500K the insurance would not have paid their share and most people don't have that kind of money.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: MisterDDDD ()
Date: May 19, 2020 01:11

Realize this is a can of political worms, but also realize this is very much on topic and was discussed the last time the issue was raised.
Multiple stations airing this press briefing live cut away or quickly followed it with warnings not to take this drug as it can be very dangerous or fatal to some people with certain conditions (including FOX) Unbelievably irresponsible.


Trump says he is taking hydroxychloroquine

President Trump said Monday that he is taking the controversial drug hydroxychloroquine — an antimalaria drug that the Food and Drug Administration has warned against widespread use — along with zinc as preventative measures against the coronavirus. "I get a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy and I say, hey, you know the expression I've used ... what do you have to lose?" Mr. Trump said.

Mr. Trump said he's has been taking a pill "every day" for about a week and a half, and "I'm still here."

But the FDA cautions hydroxycholoroquine has been linked to serious and even fatal heart risks in some patients. The largest study on the drug to date showed it did not improve the condition of coronavirus patients and was linked to a greater number of deaths. Other studies are looking into the potential impact of using the drug in combination with zinc or azithromycin, an antibiotic.

[www.cbsnews.com]




Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: May 19, 2020 01:33

Quote
daspyknows
Also, Sweden has a much more robust public health system than most countries, especially compared to the US.

No we don’t.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: NICOS ()
Date: May 19, 2020 02:01

The problem with all these messages is...........who should i believe....my heart says this and my mind say that.....maybe we will get the answer of this whole problem or not......

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: 5stringTele ()
Date: May 19, 2020 05:39

Quote
MisterDDDD
Realize this is a can of political worms, but also realize this is very much on topic and was discussed the last time the issue was raised.
Multiple stations airing this press briefing live cut away or quickly followed it with warnings not to take this drug as it can be very dangerous or fatal to some people with certain conditions (including FOX) Unbelievably irresponsible.

{--SNIP--}

President Trump said Monday that he is taking the controversial drug hydroxychloroquine — an antimalaria drug that the Food and Drug Administration has warned against widespread use — along with zinc as preventative measures against the coronavirus. "I get a lot of tremendously positive news on the hydroxy and I say, hey, you know the expression I've used ... what do you have to lose?" Mr. Trump said.

Mr. Trump said he's has been taking a pill "every day" for about a week and a half, and "I'm still here."

But the FDA cautions hydroxycholoroquine has been linked to serious and even fatal heart risks in some patients. The largest study on the drug to date showed it did not improve the condition of coronavirus patients and was linked to a greater number of deaths. Other studies are looking into the potential impact of using the drug in combination with zinc or azithromycin, an antibiotic.

{--SNIP--}

I bet it's more than a coincidence that Trump threw that to the press the day after Dr Bright appeared on 60 Minutes to discuss his whistle blower complaint, which, in part, questioned Trumps embracing HCQ.

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Date: May 19, 2020 11:13

Quote
Stoneage
..continue (see above): The health care system has stood up pretty well here. Which, of course, was prio number one for the authorities. And the R-rate is below 1 now. Even in Stockholm.
Stockholm, by the way, has been a cluster for this virus. And the so called "utsatta områden", "deprived areas", where mostly immigrants live. The rest of the country is less affected.
Some counties hardly at all.

Didn't it spread quite a lot in Västra Götaland (where I have a cabin, of course sad smiley )?

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: May 19, 2020 11:31

Looked at the figures, Dandy. Your (vacation-) region is number two in the charts. Clearly so. But still five time less fatalities than the Stockholm region.

[www.svt.se]

Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by: Kurt ()
Date: May 19, 2020 13:14

At this point, we should focus on what actually went wrong from the very beginning...

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