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bv
Delta Airlines added a $200 cost per month to employees without a vaccine, deducted from their pay check monthly. They say it cost on average $50,000 for the company if an employee get hospitalized with covid-19, so it makes sense. Also, it is probably a better solution than the United Airlines way, they fired non-vaccinated.

There is a lot of anger vs non-vaccinated, as it seems. Some are just selfish, others are afraid, some do not trust the authorities, no wonder, there have been quite a few not so good experiences from vaccine projects in history.

The non-vaccinated will get covid-19 one day, probably in a more worse version that for those who are vaccinated, so I don't see any reason why we should force anyone to vaccinate. We will all be immune during 2022 anyway. If they work in the health system, you may keep them away from elderly and weak people, but they should still be respected for whatever reason they have of not accepting the vaccine.

Been a long pandemic and a long thread.
Probably the first statement I've disagreed with you on (although I was more certain of mask wearing early on, in terms of Americans adapting)

Maybe elsewhere in the world where it's not as politicized, but there are literally anti-vaxxers not getting vaxxed to "own the libs" here.
Just had a state Senator die in my county who expressed that sentiment loudly.
It's a real thing.. They would rather see people die than our current POTUS or experts have success.

No respect from me for that faction. Ever.

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MisterDDDD

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bv
Delta Airlines added a $200 cost per month to employees without a vaccine, deducted from their pay check monthly. They say it cost on average $50,000 for the company if an employee get hospitalized with covid-19, so it makes sense. Also, it is probably a better solution than the United Airlines way, they fired non-vaccinated.

There is a lot of anger vs non-vaccinated, as it seems. Some are just selfish, others are afraid, some do not trust the authorities, no wonder, there have been quite a few not so good experiences from vaccine projects in history.

The non-vaccinated will get covid-19 one day, probably in a more worse version that for those who are vaccinated, so I don't see any reason why we should force anyone to vaccinate. We will all be immune during 2022 anyway. If they work in the health system, you may keep them away from elderly and weak people, but they should still be respected for whatever reason they have of not accepting the vaccine.

Been a long pandemic and a long thread.
Probably the first statement I've disagreed with you on (although I was more certain of mask wearing early on, in terms of Americans adapting)

Maybe elsewhere in the world where it's not as politicized, but there are literally anti-vaxxers not getting vaxxed to "own the libs" here.
Just had a state Senator die in my county who expressed that sentiment loudly.
It's a real thing.. They would rather see people die than our current POTUS or experts have success.

No respect from me for that faction. Ever.

Agreed. There are way too many people who refuse to get the vaccine for bad-faith reasons, for me to ever respect them.

I do not support those who do not want to get the covid-19 vaccine. Still, I live in a country where we respect each other, no matter what we do or what political opinion we do have. I can not force my opinion on others, no matter. We do not live in a dictatorship country. But, I can tell people what is smart.

There are women who have been experiencing side effects from the vaccine from bleeding and changes in their period. They do experience this themselves, and tell their friends. So their non vaccinated friends get worried. They do not see the danger from covid-19, but they see the rare side effect of the vaccine.

There are football players and other elite sports people who think they are stronger than anyone, like superman, and they are afraid of side effects, like loosing their sperm count, wherever they got that idea from. So let them stay non vaccinated, if they really want to live an outside life during 2022. The Liverpool head coach Klopp said he would prioritize vaccinated players so you will loose out in sports if you are not vaccinated in 2022.

If we bring out the good reasons for why people should vaccinate, and also we explain why the side effects are far less dangerous than actually getting covid-19, then more and more people will either get vaccinated, or get covid-19. It is their choice.

Liverpool manager Jürgen Klopp explains view on mandatory Covid vaccines (Echo)

From the above Jürgen Klopp interview:

"I am 54 years old and I really am a big believer in that you can convince people about the right things to do, but I’m not sure in this specific case.

"England is in a much better place vaccination rate wise than Germany is for example. It’s unbelievable how aggressive the anti-vaxxer scene is and how clear they are in that they obviously know better than the rest of us.

"It’s really tricky, really tricky. But no, I don’t think it should be mandatory legally, but morally, yes."

Bjornulf

Do those who act immorally deserve respect?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-30 21:59 by NashvilleBlues.

I spent three months on the tour in USA during Sep/Oct/Nov, on travel through the states the Stones visited. I had my mask on at all times in restaurants, bars, shows, hotels, flights, airports, buses, trams and so on. Everyone was respecting me for having my mask on, not one time I was asked or bugged for having my mask on. So I do believe in respect rather than hate.

Just one time during my three months in the cities across USA this year, I did see some 200 people walking a march protesting the vaccine. It was in St Paul on Saturday Oct 23, the day before the show in Minneapolis. They had signs about "Big Pharma" and all sorts of other theories. Not anything to worry about. Just let them mach and say their opinion. I respected them, they may say what they like, they will not change my opinion on taking vaccination. In general, I did not see much vaccine protests during my travel, mainly into big cities.

Then I do remember the religious guy on a street corner downtown Dallas, with signs and crosses, saying the vaccine was like the beast, a mark, it was like the devil. Most people who passed by him looked at him and smiled. I did not even bother to make a picture of him.

I may be naive, but I do believe most smart people in USA see that the vaccine is a smart thing to do. Even Donald Trump took the 3rd vaccine recently, as he said on TV, the booster, so what is the problem?

Pictures from St Paul MN Oct 23, 2021:





Bjornulf

No hate from me. I don’t treat them differently. They just get no respect from me. I appreciate your words about the tour and what you saw. Hope you liked Tennessee!

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NashvilleBlues
Do those who act immorally deserve respect?

That would depend on your moral compass.

Nate

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Nate

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NashvilleBlues
Do those who act immorally deserve respect?

That would depend on your moral compass.

Nate

Agree 100%.

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NashvilleBlues
No hate from me. I don’t treat them differently. They just get no respect from me. I appreciate your words about the tour and what you saw. Hope you liked Tennessee!

My point as well.
No hate... but respect?? Nope.

Respect those with differing opinions, reasoning and fears etc.. but that unfortunately doesn't cover all.

Wow, I am impressed by two recent contributions here. First the above one by BV for trusting on the pillars of open and free democracy and the power of not force or law, but rational discussion as the ultimate court of convincing people to do the right thing. Second the one (last page?) by Treacle for his Darwinian story of irrationalism might having a point in survival of human race in the long run (irony aside: a great insight!)

Both accounts suit very well to the majority of us struggling with the anti-vaccine minority and actually support each other: while BV's view promotes the moral obligation to spread the light of reason, no matter how difficult it is, to the ones in darkness (being there for whatever 'reason') and still treat them and their decisions with respect, Treacle's point reminds us that there might be factors in the world that we cannot predict and our reason control - so even though if our task to convince people rationally (in the light of our best knowledge now) doesn't quite succeed (like it never 100% does), that might not be that bad...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-30 23:06 by Doxa.

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NashvilleBlues
No hate from me. I don’t treat them differently. They just get no respect from me. I appreciate your words about the tour and what you saw. Hope you liked Tennessee!

I do treat them differently – I avoid any contact with them because I don't want to catch COVID. And I do respect them in the same way I respect people driving drunk – in other words: not at all because I don't see their behavoir as an opinion but as a threat to others.

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slewan

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NashvilleBlues
No hate from me. I don’t treat them differently. They just get no respect from me. I appreciate your words about the tour and what you saw. Hope you liked Tennessee!

I do treat them differently – I avoid any contact with them because I don't want to catch COVID. And I do respect them in the same way I respect people driving drunk – in other words: not at all because I don't see their behavoir as an opinion but as a threat to others.

That's exactly what it is. There are people who simply have a different opinion or have been misinformed about reasons they should fear the vaccine--and then there are the people who just refuse to get it as some kind of political statement, knowing all the time how reckless they're being both towards their own health and other people's. People who knowingly risk other people's lives get no respect from me, and I live surrounded by thousands of them. It's NOT just a different, valid opinion, it's much more dangerous than that.

Most people living in society inflict sickness and death on others by going about their daily lives.Ask yourself how many times you have walked somewhere instead of taking the car and polluting the air,how many times have you stopped yourself making a luxury purchase such as a concert ticket and sent the money to starving children in Africa,how many times have you stopped on the street on your way to a restaurant and said hello to a homeless person and gave them the money for a meal.

Most people care about unvaccinated people for the sole reason they are having a detrimental affect on their own lives not because they care about the greater good of humanity.People should be more honest about their reasons for wanting others to get vaccinated.

Nate

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Nate
Most people living in society inflict sickness and death on others by going about their daily lives.Ask yourself how many times you have walked somewhere instead of taking the car and polluting the air,how many times have you stopped yourself making a luxury purchase such as a concert ticket and sent the money to starving children in Africa,how many times have you stopped on the street on your way to a restaurant and said hello to a homeless person and gave them the money for a meal.

Most people care about unvaccinated people for the sole reason they are having a detrimental affect on their own lives not because they care about the greater good of humanity.People should be more honest about their reasons for wanting others to get vaccinated.

Nate

Agree 100%.

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Nate
Most people living in society inflict sickness and death on others by going about their daily lives.Ask yourself how many times you have walked somewhere instead of taking the car and polluting the air,how many times have you stopped yourself making a luxury purchase such as a concert ticket and sent the money to starving children in Africa,how many times have you stopped on the street on your way to a restaurant and said hello to a homeless person and gave them the money for a meal.

Most people care about unvaccinated people for the sole reason they are having a detrimental affect on their own lives not because they care about the greater good of humanity.People should be more honest about their reasons for wanting others to get vaccinated.

Nate

Honestly, it’s both for me. I care how it impacts me and humanity as a whole. The coin also has another side. Do most unvaxxed people care more about themselves or society?

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SomeTorontoGirl

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slewan

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terraplane
So does that same logic apply to overweight people who have a heart attack or smokers with lung cancer? They shouldn't receive treatment because they made their choice?

no - because obesity or drug addiction are not a free decision. Not being vaccinated, however, is not an addiction. It is more like refusing necessary medical treatment or refusing to take your prescribed medicine

Also, I didn't say that there are easy solutions to difficult problems. My point is just that making decisions is only a meaningful concept if it has consequences and responsibilities.

Also, the effect of COVid on the medical system, compared to the effects of of medical issues related to smoking, drinking, drugs, obesity or carelessness, is orders of magnitude different. None of those issues, individually or collectively, are filling hospitals, burning out crucial medical staff, or preventing treatment of other medical conditions. Context, please.

From March 2021 but:
A study estimated that nearly two-thirds of COVID-19 hospitalizations in the U.S. could be attributed to obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and heart failure.

NIH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 00:17 by terraplane.

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bv
I spent three months on the tour in USA during Sep/Oct/Nov, on travel through the states the Stones visited. I had my mask on at all times in restaurants, bars, shows, hotels, flights, airports, buses, trams and so on. Everyone was respecting me for having my mask on, not one time I was asked or bugged for having my mask on. So I do believe in respect rather than hate.

Just one time during my three months in the cities across USA this year, I did see some 200 people walking a march protesting the vaccine. It was in St Paul on Saturday Oct 23, the day before the show in Minneapolis. They had signs about "Big Pharma" and all sorts of other theories. Not anything to worry about. Just let them mach and say their opinion. I respected them, they may say what they like, they will not change my opinion on taking vaccination. In general, I did not see much vaccine protests during my travel, mainly into big cities.

Then I do remember the religious guy on a street corner downtown Dallas, with signs and crosses, saying the vaccine was like the beast, a mark, it was like the devil. Most people who passed by him looked at him and smiled. I did not even bother to make a picture of him.

I may be naive, but I do believe most smart people in USA see that the vaccine is a smart thing to do. Even Donald Trump took the 3rd vaccine recently, as he said on TV, the booster, so what is the problem?

Pictures from St Paul MN Oct 23, 2021:

But if 35% of a population isn't smart enough, they're still a minority of the population, just an incredibly large one, and large enough to wreak havoc.

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NashvilleBlues

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Nate
Most people living in society inflict sickness and death on others by going about their daily lives.Ask yourself how many times you have walked somewhere instead of taking the car and polluting the air,how many times have you stopped yourself making a luxury purchase such as a concert ticket and sent the money to starving children in Africa,how many times have you stopped on the street on your way to a restaurant and said hello to a homeless person and gave them the money for a meal.

Most people care about unvaccinated people for the sole reason they are having a detrimental affect on their own lives not because they care about the greater good of humanity.People should be more honest about their reasons for wanting others to get vaccinated.

Nate

Honestly, it’s both for me. I care how it impacts me and humanity as a whole. The coin also has another side. Do most unvaxxed people care more about themselves or society?

I think it's more about them thinking, "I only care about myself and don't give a sh*t about anyone else".

And in this unusual time, it's even more about 'being right' than even caring about themselves.

Extremism is never a good thing.

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treaclefingers
I think it's more about them thinking, "I only care about myself and don't give a sh*t about anyone else".

And in this unusual time, it's even more about 'being right' than even caring about themselves.

Extremism is never a good thing.

Would you recommend vaccinating a minor when it won't prevent them getting infected nor infecting others? It may reduce the probabilities overall and even that requires repeated vaccinations over the course of a year. Even vaccinated, I could not feel safe around them, because they could still transmit.

I believe you would recommend vaccinating them for the overall good of society, but to me that is extreme. I give a sh*t about them and could only justify it for vulnerable kids. Long term effects of the vaccines are not known yet.

From PBS:

3 big questions about the Biden administration’s COVID response in 2022
Health- Dec 30, 2021 3:13 PM EST

COVID19

2021 was supposed to be the year the pandemic ended. At least in the United States, anyway, where health officials administered roughly 500 million vaccine doses, more than any other country besides China or India. President Biden declared last spring that by summer, the country would be “closer than ever to declaring our independence from this deadly virus.” Things didn’t quite go to plan. U.S. health officials are currently reporting well over 238,000 new infections each day. The emergence of the Delta variant last summer, and the omicron variant more recently, threw a wrench into the administration’s grand plans to bring back “normal” life. As the pandemic stretches into its third year, Biden’s approval rating has slipped. And, more importantly, over 1,000 Americans continue to die from the disease each day, inching closer to the grim milestone of 1 million. In short, the White House has its work cut out for it, a year after assuming control of the U.S. coronavirus response. Below, STAT lays out the three biggest questions about the Biden administration’s COVID-19 strategy, and whether 2022 can finally be the year the pandemic fades into the background.

Will the government broaden its focus beyond vaccines?

Even before there were COVID-19 vaccines, there were commonsense tools used to prevent the disease from spreading: Wearing masks, and avoiding indoor gatherings with large numbers of other people. But two years into the pandemic, the U.S. is still laser-focused on vaccines, and has largely ignored other factors. In particular, federal regulators haven’t done much to incentivize Americans to wear higher-quality face coverings, or to maintain better filtration and cleaner air in indoor spaces. In fact, many of the masks that are still worn today aren’t really masks at all, but cloth face coverings that were used as makeshift protection back in early 2020. Still, experts have always known that masks used in medical or industrial settings, like a surgical mask or N95 respirator, are far superior at filtering out infectious particles. Nonetheless, there’s no mask requirement to board a train or plane, or to enter a government building. Instead, any face covering will do. Meanwhile, the federal government hasn’t done much to improve the quality of air filtration in buildings. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has issued numerous emergency standards requiring employees to be vaccinated, but so far has ignored calls to issue a firm standard for air quality. (Instead, OSHA has issued a number of vague encouragements to filter air to the maximum extent possible.) We’ve seen the consequences already, like in a recent outbreak among New York City children whose schools relied on portable air purifiers and open windows as opposed to upgraded air filtration systems.

Will people who feel sick have better options for tests and treatments?

Ideally, if someone suspects they have COVID-19, they’d have access to testing and treatments as soon as possible. Practically, though, both are tough to come by. Rapid tests remain in short supply, and they’re pricey, too. Bizarrely, the Biden administration initially scoffed at the idea of making them available for free. Instead, the White House announced a complicated scheme to let people with health insurance pay upfront for tests, then ask their health plan to pay them back later. Eventually, though, the administration announced a plan to buy 500 million COVID-19 rapid tests and mail them for free to anybody who requests the kits via a new government website. The first deliveries, however, won’t begin until sometime in January, and it’s not clear how many tests will be available immediately. Even if people who feel sick do access a rapid test, and it comes back positive, they have limited options besides monoclonal antibody treatments, many of which appear to be less effective against cases of the omicron variant. The same is true for COVID-19 antiviral treatments under development by a number of companies including Pfizer and Merck. Those two manufacturers’ drugs finally received emergency use authorizations from the FDA in late December. Still, experts have warned that Americans could face a host of problems when trying to access the drugs: Failure to recognize COVID symptoms, lack of access to testing, lack of access to a doctor who can prescribe the drug, and the inability to get to a pharmacy, health clinic, or hospital.

Forget a third vaccine dose — will Americans need a fourth, too?

The Biden administration’s late-2021 COVID response was marred by the back-and-forth debate over booster shots — whether they were necessary for everybody, and whether the White House interfered with the scientific process of getting them approved. That ship has sailed. Especially with the emergence of the omicron variant, a broad consensus has emerged that adults should be boosted. Now, there’s a new, looming question: Will Americans need a fourth dose, or even additional doses beyond that? Signs point to yes. Peter Hotez, a leading U.S. vaccine researcher, has acknowledged the possible need for a fourth dose on a more widespread basis. Scott Gottlieb, the former Food and Drug Administration commissioner and current Pfizer board member, also said recently that he expects COVID-19 vaccinations to become an annual ritual akin to flu shots, at least for a while. Some governments made the same acknowledgment. In Israel, one of the first countries to attain a high vaccination rate and one of the first countries to administer booster shots, an expert panel has recommended a fourth dose for some medically vulnerable individuals. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has already announced that immunocompromised Americans will be eligible for a fourth dose at some point in 2022. But administering more booster shots, to say nothing of fourth doses, could impede the effort to vaccinate the rest of the world currently last in line for vaccines, namely large regions of Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East. It could also complicate vaccine messaging and further strain the U.S. health infrastructure.

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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skytrench

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treaclefingers
I think it's more about them thinking, "I only care about myself and don't give a sh*t about anyone else".

And in this unusual time, it's even more about 'being right' than even caring about themselves.

Extremism is never a good thing.

Would you recommend vaccinating a minor when it won't prevent them getting infected nor infecting others? It may reduce the probabilities overall and even that requires repeated vaccinations over the course of a year. Even vaccinated, I could not feel safe around them, because they could still transmit.

I believe you would recommend vaccinating them for the overall good of society, but to me that is extreme. I give a sh*t about them and could only justify it for vulnerable kids. Long term effects of the vaccines are not known yet.

So, do you 'give a sh*t' about kids that die or have other bad outcomes because of the virus, or are they 'collateral damage' in your fear that there may be a long term outcome from taking a vaccine?

Just curious because your jumping up and down so hard defending children on the one hand, yet not addressing the issue of them dying or having long term bad outcomes themselves when getting sick with the virus. I have children, and weighing the risks, it was a no brainer. With anything there is a risk so it always makes you a bit nervous, but when looked at in totality, it was a NO-brainer.

Are you against vaccinations altogether for children? It's a reasonable question, because some people are.

BUT, if you're not, then why this one? The MRNa's have been tested for over 10 years, on other diseases, most notably cancer. Why is this your hill to die on?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 02:12 by treaclefingers.

From the Guardian:

How Australia went from Covid-zero to Covid-central in just a few months

Since the Covid-19 pandemic began to emerge across the globe almost two years ago, Australia has often appeared to be living in a parallel reality. In November last year, when more than 50,000 people had already died in the UK and daily case numbers were hovering at about 33,000 during a suffocating lockdown, the Queensland premier, Annastacia Palaszczuk, was boasting of packed crowds at rugby games. In Victoria, the only state in the country to experience a significant outbreak of the virus in 2020, the term “donut day” had been coined to celebrate the arrival of zero new cases of the virus. Australians have largely been content to endure their enforced isolation from the globe on the basis that life continued largely unaffected by a pandemic which has killed 5.4 million people globally to date. But that policy of Covid zero, dubbed “fortress Australia” or “the hermit kingdom”, has now been profoundly deserted after the arrival of the Omicron variant coincided with a loosening of Covid-era restrictions.

On Thursday Australia’s largest state, New South Wales, recorded more than 12,000 new cases, up from 6,000 two days earlier. The state is now recording about 1.4 cases per 1,000 people in the population, rapidly catching the UK’s figure of about 2 per 1,000. Victoria also reported a record 5,100 cases, up about 2,000 from the previous record set the day before. States which attempted to eradicate the virus for longer, such as Queensland and South Australia, are setting daily case records. In all more than 20,000 cases were reported on Thursday. Though the leap in cases has mirrored the explosion globally since the emergence of the highly-contagious Omicron variant, much of Australia now finds itself grappling with the reality of living with the pandemic for the first time.


More.> COVID19

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

As for Queensland:

There are 11,697 active cases and only one person is in intensive care in hospital, a man in his 50s with the Delta variant. The man was fully vaccinated.

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CindyC

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Nate

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CindyC
Sometorontogirl - thank you for post that article. That is a perspective that I haven't given much consideration to. I sympathize with that family in their frustration, and can only imagine how helpless they must have felt seeing their loved one getting sicker and sicker and it makes me really angry. It makes me have irrational thoughts such as refusing to give a hospital bed to an unvaxxed covid patient if there is not enough space. They made their choice, and took their chances, others should shouldn't suffer as a result.

So you are ok with refusing treatment to people who require it due to choices they made themselves?
Nate

Unfortunately, it appears to have come to that.

We are now in a situation with extremely limited resources. If people are being turned away, there should be protocols put in place where an unvaxxed person looking for treatment related to COVID should be lower on the list. Obviously there will need to be exceptions due to the reasoning for not getting vaccinated, but if it's completely due to personal preference, then yes I am ok with it.

They already do this with organ transplants. The person who has a naturally occurring or congenital condition goes before the drug addict or alcoholic in regards to a liver transplants. If there is one dose of a treatment, the vaccinated person should go before the unvaccinated. If there is one hospital ICU bed, the heart attack victim is more deserving than the unvaxxed Covid pneumonia victim.

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CindyC

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Nate

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CindyC

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Nate

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CindyC
Sometorontogirl - thank you for post that article. That is a perspective that I haven't given much consideration to. I sympathize with that family in their frustration, and can only imagine how helpless they must have felt seeing their loved one getting sicker and sicker and it makes me really angry. It makes me have irrational thoughts such as refusing to give a hospital bed to an unvaxxed covid patient if there is not enough space. They made their choice, and took their chances, others should shouldn't suffer as a result.

So you are ok with refusing treatment to people who require it due to choices they made themselves?
Nate

Unfortunately, it appears to have come to that.

We are now in a situation with extremely limited resources. If people are being turned away, there should be protocols put in place where an unvaxxed person looking for treatment related to COVID should be lower on the list. Obviously there will need to be exceptions due to the reasoning for not getting vaccinated, but if it's completely due to personal preference, then yes I am ok with it.

You haven't understood my question so let's put it another way for example you have an accident whilst taking part in some sport and your leg has to be amputated unless the doctor performs surgery imminently but as it was your choice to take part in the sport instead of staying at home and baking a cake you will be refused treatment and your leg will end up in the trash bin because someone else more deserving than you has taken priority.

I personally couldn't care less if these people live or die and if it was up to me I would give priority to someone with the body of Salma Hayek over someone with the sex appeal of a potato but fortunately for society such decisions aren't taken by people like me.

Nate

I think i was pretty clear when I wrote "If people are being turned away, there should be protocols put in place where an unvaxxed person looking for treatment related to COVID should be lower on the list. "

Meaning, I am referring only to people seeking COVID relief that were not vaccinated

It's not you. Nate is logically challenged. You were perfectly clear.

Norway have a high level of vaccination because we do not force people to vaccinate. It is all up to yourself. I think we have something like 92% of all adults above 18 years old vaccinated, and 80% above age 12 and up. There have been talks about forcing vaccine, but every time that is talked about, by press or some populist politicians, then the health authorities do point at countries with low vaccination percentage, where a lot more force is being used, scaring people away.

If there are 30% or 40% of the people with no vaccination in an area, it must be due to lack or information or trust. We had that with immigrants from Africa, Asia and East Europe in Norway. By information and using mosques and local communities, also by telling them how many are in hospital and dead from covid-19 from their cultural groups in our country, they understand and do take vaccination at a higher degree now.

Vaccine has gotten into politics and religion some places. It is sad, but you can not force religious or fanatics people into vaccination, it will just lead to hate, segregation and lack of trust. Not the right way to build unity.

Bjornulf

Exactly so BV.

Very similar position here in the UK.

As an individual who was assessed as "clinically Extremely Vulnerable" I'm now just thankful that those of us who are "double jabbed " and "Boostered " are pretty well protected against a serious Covid illness.

But with levels as they are with Omicron , you do still worry for folks who for whatever reason are not protected.

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 12:49 by Stoneage.

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bv
Norway have a high level of vaccination because we do not force people to vaccinate. It is all up to yourself. I think we have something like 92% of all adults above 18 years old vaccinated, and 80% above age 12 and up. There have been talks about forcing vaccine, but every time that is talked about, by press or some populist politicians, then the health authorities do point at countries with low vaccination percentage, where a lot more force is being used, scaring people away.

If there are 30% or 40% of the people with no vaccination in an area, it must be due to lack or information or trust. We had that with immigrants from Africa, Asia and East Europe in Norway. By information and using mosques and local communities, also by telling them how many are in hospital and dead from covid-19 from their cultural groups in our country, they understand and do take vaccination at a higher degree now.

Vaccine has gotten into politics and religion some places. It is sad, but you can not force religious or fanatics people into vaccination, it will just lead to hate, segregation and lack of trust. Not the right way to build unity.

well, people in Norway seem to be more rational than in other place. In Germany for example vaccination rates are high in the Northwestern parts of the country and low in the south Western and the Eastern parts. What seems to unite those people who refuse vaccination is a general distrust in science, politics, expertise, and facts etc. German sociologists coined the term 'Misstrauensgemeinschaft' (community of distrust) to discribe the phenomenon because the only things that unites these people is distrust in nearly everything. Beside shared distrust they are completely heterogen ranging from far right wing people, neonazis to anthrophosphists, libertariens, evangelicalist, former hippies etc. and not to forget: pure nihilists who are against everything.


And interessting aspect about mandatory vaccination might be that it might enable at least some people who spoke out against vaccination to get vaccinated without losing their face. They just can retreat and say: I'm against vaccination but what can you do when it's mandatory? That way the don't have to admid that they changed their mind and got vaccinated.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-12-31 13:06 by slewan.

The US shattered its average daily Covid-19 case record again. Experts say numbers will keep climbing in the coming weeks

"We know that over the next five to six weeks we're going to continue to see transmission of this virus throughout this country, much like a viral blizzard," - Michael Osterholm

COVID19

Just a day after the US reported its highest average daily Covid-19 case number, the country shattered that record again Thursday, with an average of 355,990 new infections reported every day in the past week, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. But as the latest surge sweeps across the US, pushing cases and hospitalizations to unprecedented levels and altering daily life once again for many Americans, experts warn we're still weeks away from a possible turning point. "Given the size of our country and the diversity of vaccination versus not vaccination, that it likely will be more than a couple of weeks (until Covid-19 cases peak)," Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's leading infectious disease expert, told CNBC this week. "Probably by the end of January." And roughly 62% of the country is fully vaccinated, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Only about 33.4% of fully vaccinated adults have also gotten their booster vaccines -- a shot that experts say is now critical in helping further protect against severe illness from the dangerous variants circulating.

The Omicron variant -- the most contagious strain of the virus so far -- is spreading like wildfire across the world, with several European countries reporting their highest ever case counts. In the US, multiple states are seeing their highest Covid-19 case and hospitalization numbers ever, with some governors calling in the National Guard for help. New York state reported more than 74,000 new cases Thursday, according to the governor's office, breaking its single-day record of reported infections, while hospitalizations rose by almost 20% since Monday. "Get vaccinated, get boosted, mask up, and avoid large indoor public gatherings when possible," New York Gov. Kathy Hochul said in a statement. Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson announced Thursday his state also set a case record, with more than 4,970 residents testing positive in a day. Maryland, reporting more than 10,870 new cases Wednesday, beat a state record that was set just days earlier and also reported its highest Covid-19 hospitalization rate this week. Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine announced this week he was deploying 1,250 members of the state's National Guard on the same day the state reported its highest Covid-19 hospitalization number. Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp also announced the deployment of 200 troops in the same week that six major health systems across the state announced they saw 100% to 200% increases in hospitalizations. And things will only get worse before they get better, one expert said. "We know that over the next five to six weeks we're going to continue to see transmission of this virus throughout this country, much like a viral blizzard," said Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. "With that, we are going to see a perfect storm in our health care settings."

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Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......