Quote
wonderboy

Quote
GasLightStreet


That's a bit skewed and unhealthy. It's also unnecessary fake drama. Do you know anyone that's had COVID? I do. Long term isolation isn't anything like getting COVID and having the true dangers of mutilated internal organs or death. Seeing people one knows have not been exposed because of limited socializing is not part of "the dangers of longeterm isolation," but hanging out with a lot of people in bars or restaurants or big groups and parties inside is because of the true factual dangers of what COVID can do.

No one has died from isolation unless they've done it to themselves.

I'm just making an observation. Nobody has been able to do anything close to a full lockdown unless they have the financial resources, and even then they must depend on others getting out and working to keep the world going, as well as producing and delivering food and supplies. My parents have been able to this, thankfully. Most of us cannot. The elected officials recommending lockdowns are certainly not doing it. The people who lectured me about following the rules I have noticed break them when nobody is watching. I'm a realist. We've caused unnecessary divisions by adopting an unreal strategy.

What's the alternative?

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
wonderboy

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
wonderboy
Lockdowns are impossible for most people over extended periods, for reasons of human nature, the necessity to earn money and the realization by many people that their personal risks are very low. I encourage my young adult children to have people they can see because the dangers of longterm isolation are greater than Covid.

That's a bit skewed and unhealthy. It's also unnecessary fake drama. Do you know anyone that's had COVID? I do. Long term isolation isn't anything like getting COVID and having the true dangers of mutilated internal organs or death. Seeing people one knows have not been exposed because of limited socializing is not part of "the dangers of longeterm isolation," but hanging out with a lot of people in bars or restaurants or big groups and parties inside is because of the true factual dangers of what COVID can do.

No one has died from isolation unless they've done it to themselves.

I'm just making an observation. Nobody has been able to do anything close to a full lockdown unless they have the financial resources, and even then they must depend on others getting out and working to keep the world going, as well as producing and delivering food and supplies. My parents have been able to this, thankfully. Most of us cannot. The elected officials recommending lockdowns are certainly not doing it. The people who lectured me about following the rules I have noticed break them when nobody is watching. I'm a realist. We've caused unnecessary divisions by adopting an unreal strategy.

What's the alternative?

SOME people have had trouble doing a lockdown. Broad statements like that aren't accurate. Saying "Nobody has been able to do anything close to a full lockdown unless they have the financial resources" is a bit... you're a realist? That sounds more like defeatist. It's not realistic. I don't know anyone that's not been able to deal with it and some of my friends are not exactly well off. I live by myself. From January 2020 through part of August I basically lived with my girlfriend. For 6 months I didn't work. 2 of those 6 months I'd lived by myself again. Since then nothing's changed except I got my job back. Everyone I know that was in total isolation is back to work and is maintaining social isolation. A lot of people I don't know are having parties and spreading COVID.

Does that make any sense?

That aside I know what does work: keeping to ones self and paying attention to ones actions which means being respectful, which includes wearing a mask, as difficult as that is for some. I've heard so many people whine about having to wear a mask (probably the weakest dumbest most pathetic complaint I've heard in decades) and how this and that, quoting lies to make their opinion matter... when it's been said loudly, 'If you'd've only paid attention when it mattered'.

The whole "lockdowns don't work" mentality is because those people are unwilling to see something through. The original "flatten the curve" was just that - SACRIFICE three weeks of your life and get it to stop.

But ohhhhh, the sacrifice. My LIBERTY! Won't wait for 2 biscuits, give me the one now.

Pavlov slaves. The mentality of freedom means more than living smartly to avoid getting a virus that will kill your freedom?

I live in that country. I see it every day. COVID will be around for quite a while it looks like because people are "tired".

Have you ever wondered what someone from 1918 would say to us?

They have now begun vaccinating elderly people in San Diego County. I have registered my 90 and 91-year-old parents and they were put on a waitlist with zero information about where they are on that waitlist. My guess is there are many thousands of people ahead of them. I had to pick a vaccination location and I picked a smaller location that is closer to where we live, not at Petco Park stadium where more vaccinations will be taking place. Fingers crossed my parents will not have to wait too long.

Our dear Mum , who is 94 year's young (as we all tell her), has had her first vaccination on Saturday at her Care Home here in Epsom.

They had a nice guy come in to the Care Home and gave the vaccine to all the residents and staff on Saturday January 16th.

I heard that they really liked the guy who done their jabs, as he had a great way of just getting on with them all.

Good on yer all to our great NHS.

Open Florida versus Closed California - Number of cases nearly the same. Analysis:


[www.foxnews.com]

Quote
crawdaddy
Our dear Mum , who is 94 year's young (as we all tell her), has had her first vaccination on Saturday at her Care Home here in Epsom.

They had a nice guy come in to the Care Home and gave the vaccine to all the residents and staff on Saturday January 16th.

I heard that they really liked the guy who done their jabs, as he had a great way of just getting on with them all.

Good on yer all to our great NHS.

Hear! Hear! My parents are 78 & 79, and they both get their 1st vaccinations in Swindon this Saturday

Quote
Chris Fountain
Open Florida versus Closed California - Number of cases nearly the same. Analysis:

[www.foxnews.com]

By reading all the comments under that Fox News report above I sure understand why USA are struggling now.

Bjornulf

Some people are making huge personal sacrifices in order to help others and reduce the spread of this dreadful virus.

Medical staff, for example, are working extended shifts and under astonishing pressure to try and save lives. They don't complain because they understand that it's for the sake of all of us.

But some people find even the smallest of sacrifices for the good of others more than they can deal with without complaining.

At the moment there are a lot of highly paid professional tennis players (reportedly $100,000 prize if you get knocked out in the first round) assembling in Melbourne for the forthcoming Australian Open. Some have, very unfortunately, been caught up in the consequences of being on an inbound flight where someone else then tested positive. And so they have had to go into quarantine (they were forewarned of this).

Among those caught up is Bernard Tomic and his girlfriend. She's not happy, because the poor dear doesn't wash her own hair, and normally gets her hairdresser to wash it for her twice a week.

Read this..

[baseline.tennis.com]

...

"The social media influencer then went on to detail the “worst part of quarantine” – the fact she had to wash her own hair.

“It’s just not something that I do. I usually have hairdressers that do it twice a week for me,” Sierra said."

Methinks a few late shifts helping in a Hospital Emergency Department would help her sense of the world.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

To those who think rules, regulations, masks and distance does not matter... Ireland just did a test of this less than one month ago, and went from one of the best in Europe, with low number of corona cases, into really bad numbers just ten days after Christmas.

Christmas festivities blamed as Ireland battles new Covid wave (Financial Times Jan 16, 2021)

“You don’t need to be an epidemiologist, it’s obvious why this happened,” said Luke O’Neill, immunologist at Trinity College Dublin. 

“The Irish love Christmas and didn’t comply with the guidelines. Household gatherings, lots of parties — it’s such a contagious virus. Even if you had three households mixing together, that would affect the spread.” 

As coronavirus cases have surged across much of Europe, Ireland has felt the full force of the new wave. Rampant infections since Christmas forced Micheál Martin’s government into a series of drastic lockdown measures that have closed schools, construction, hospitality and retail, leaving tens of thousands jobless again. 

But those restrictions introduced around the festive period came too late to avert the surge that has put massive strain on hospitals, with intensive care wards filling up and 10 per cent of frontline health staff off work because of infection or close contact. 

Ireland - Coronavirus Cases by Worldometer

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-19 13:24 by bv.

Not unsurprisingly, we have the same post-Christmas surge in England.

As always, it will be interesting to see how different country approaches pan out in the end. Indonesia, for example, is following a reverse strategy by vaccinating its youngest inhabitants first, starting with 18 year olds. The idea is that it will be more productive to reduce transmission and achieve immunity first of all among the most economically and socially active groups.

Quote
bv

Quote
Chris Fountain
Open Florida versus Closed California - Number of cases nearly the same. Analysis:

[www.foxnews.com]

By reading all the comments under that Fox News report above I sure understand why USA are struggling now.

Yes and the article state that the Death Rate was higher in Florida, which may be a more important metric.

That's an interesting approach, but is it the real reason? I was in Indonesia a couple of times (not as supervisual tourist), but I think that another reason for starting with young people is because for many older people Islam is far more important than any vaccine. My guess is that there is a lot of resistence against the upcoming vaccine program and the older the people the bigger the resistance.
But who will tell?
I miss that beautiful country!

Quote
Chris Fountain

Quote
bv

Quote
Chris Fountain
Open Florida versus Closed California - Number of cases nearly the same. Analysis:

[www.foxnews.com]

By reading all the comments under that Fox News report above I sure understand why USA are struggling now.

Yes and the article state that the Death Rate was higher in Florida, which may be a more important metric.

Fox news are running this as a political story, with images of the FL and CA governors (DeSantis - Republican vs Newsom - Democratic), with the headline:

Closed California vs. Open Florida - who's outperforming the other?
Florida has smaller population than California, but both have similar number of cases per 100,000 residents

Rather than trying to twist any data into making some politicians lookingt better than others, I would prefer news sites where data are data and politics are politics.

Facts:

Florida : 1,130 deaths per million population
California : 854 deaths per million population

The number of corona positives rely on the test capacity. If there are few tests, then that number is useless. Deaths however, are a sadly more accurate fact about the pandemic.

Any countries and states with large urban areas and cities, like LA, NYC, Detroit, Chicago, Paris, London, Madrid and so on, will have large number of covid-19 cases due to people living close together, unfortunately also many deaths. It is impossible to avoid other people in elevators, on the metro, in packed bars, sidewalks and so on, and we all know that many people do not care about masks.

I would be more concerned about rural areas having high numbers, like North Dakota, South Dakota, Louisiana, all states on the top ten list of deaths per million population in USA, while I am not sure if they have large cities like NYC, Chicago and LA.

Bjornulf

Well I posted the article with intent of providing metrics of two states with respect to Covid and how they differ.


No offense whatsoever, I read the article again and honestly do not see political motives. The article imo should not have put emphasis on number of cases as opposed to the death rate.

Also, in defense of the article, yes, both governors were mentioned for their approaches; however, article did not Bad Mouth either one or take a political perspective.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-19 15:12 by Chris Fountain.

"Have you ever wondered what someone from 1918 would say to us"

GSL, I hear you on that.

Quote
Chris Fountain

Quote
bv

Quote
Chris Fountain
Open Florida versus Closed California - Number of cases nearly the same. Analysis:

[www.foxnews.com]

By reading all the comments under that Fox News report above I sure understand why USA are struggling now.

Yes and the article state that the Death Rate was higher in Florida, which may be a more important metric.

"Choose your metric to defend the result you want" has been the go-to from the beginning of this pandemic.....it's been Confirmation Bias in the extreme.

whatever "point" people want to make, there's a statistic to defend it.

....at least the prisoners are getting their shot this week in my dumb state

Incidentally, this policy is now defended by the statistics showing "close quarters living space" and the POSSIBILITY of spread (the actual numbers of spread are low in prisons)....

Use of this "close quarters" metric is a complete shift AWAY from the statistics related to how "essential" certain people/jobs are....which was the metric used to decide who could stay open and/or had to go to work)

....I'm not sure what statistic they used to give Cardinal O'Malley and the Pope their shots...but, it is very Christian of them to go to the FRONT of the line....

"me first" is not exactly what I learned at Church...but whatever....

my point is: You've got a conclusion you want to defend? There's a statistic/metric for that...

Israel has given at least one dose of vaccine to 30 percent of the country already. It is a small country but if they keep this pace the whole country will have at least one dose by March. It is possible they will be the first country to return to an almost normal way of life. [ourworldindata.org]

King Harald V of Norway age 83 got his first shot of the Pfeizer vaccine last week. By then all of the elderly at nursing homes in Norway had got their first vaccine shots, next up was age 85+, then 75+ etc. A couple of journalists made a point of the fact that our king was "just" 83 years old, so why did they give him the vaccine?

I am sure 99.9% of the population in Norway think our King should be first in line for the vaccine. Same with Pope Francis at age 83, and a few other very important persons in the world. This is not about the few, but about the many.

Bjornulf

International interest about deaths following coronavirus vaccination (Norwegian Institute of Public Health Jan 19, 2021)

On 14th January, a report about 23 deaths reported in Norway in connection with vaccination among severely frail elderly people published by the Norwegian Medicines Agency has generated interest outside Norway. An English version was published on the 15th January.

"Fatal incidents among these severely frail patients following vaccination do not imply a causal relationship between COVID-19 vaccination and death," explains Dr Sara Viksmoen Watle, Senior Physician at the NIPH.

“In order to be able to interpret this information, it is important to see the full picture. Nursing home residents are at very high risk of a severe disease course or dying from COVID-19, and have therefore been prioritised for vaccination. A large proportion of those who live in nursing homes have severe underlying conditions or are in the last stages of life. Life expectancy in nursing homes is relatively short and on average, more than 300 people die in Norwegian nursing homes every week,” says Dr Watle.

She explains that as of the 18th January, 48,680 people had been vaccinated in Norway. The majority will have mild or no side effects:

"When we vaccinate the eldest and sickest who often have several underlying conditions we expect high mortality in this population. Hence, we also expect deaths following vaccination. We do not yet know if these deaths are due to the vaccine or other causes, but we cannot exclude that common side effects may have led to a more severe course for some patients. The 23 deaths occurred within six days after vaccination. We will examine these events in relation to the expected number of deaths among the nursing home populations. The Norwegian Medicines Agency and the Norwegian Institute of Public Health are now carrying out in-depth analyses. So far, there are no statistical analyses that indicate that coronavirus vaccination has had an increased risk of death among those vaccinated," she concludes.

Bjornulf

Quote
Rocknroll1969
Israel has given at least one dose of vaccine to 30 percent of the country already. It is a small country but if they keep this pace the whole country will have at least one dose by March. It is possible they will be the first country to return to an almost normal way of life. [ourworldindata.org]

Correct me if I'm mistaken but from what I gather, life in New Zealand has already been almost normal for a few months now and that's even without any vaccinating. So the government there must have done something right that so many others didn't do and, in plenty of cases, still aren't doing.

But Israel has definitely shown the way with its vaccine rollout and will hopefully heed the calls for the rollout to include all of those living in its occupied territories.

Quote
Rocknroll1969
Israel has given at least one dose of vaccine to 30 percent of the country already. It is a small country but if they keep this pace the whole country will have at least one dose by March. It is possible they will be the first country to return to an almost normal way of life. [ourworldindata.org]

It would be a massive oversimplification to suggest that vaccinating a complete population is like switching a light on. Once done, restrictions will be slowly and carefully lifted and the impact on positive tests and deaths closely monitored.

I personally cannot see any events with spectators, be that sport, music or theatre resuming until 2022 at best. We’ll be doing very well if that’s achieved.

Quote
Rocknroll1969
Israel has given at least one dose of vaccine to 30 percent of the country already. It is a small country but if they keep this pace the whole country will have at least one dose by March. It is possible they will be the first country to return to an almost normal way of life. [ourworldindata.org]

as I said earlier: There's a statistic to defend any argument you want to make.

Does that "30%" include Palestinians in the occupied territories?

no...it does not.

Hence: Israel is fudging their statistics.

This is NOT a political statement, but a mathematical one ONLY.

Please respect BV's rules and do NOT turn this into a political debate....my discussion is PURELY mathematical about the manipulation and selective use of statistics (which has been a problem since the beginning of the pandemic).

It's "easy" to get 30% vaccination rate if you don't count millions and millions of people....

as stated: Got a claim you wanna prove? There's a stat for that.

Quote
BN78
"Have you ever wondered what someone from 1918 would say to us"

GSL, I hear you on that.

Let's guess ... with only 2 million deaths so far (probably closer to 4 million) you're doing much, much better than we did. But, we knew nothing. You, with all your media choices, know everything, so taking that into account, you're a bunch of idiots (sorry for the wise ones amongst you )

Quote
stickyfingers101

Quote
Rocknroll1969
Israel has given at least one dose of vaccine to 30 percent of the country already. It is a small country but if they keep this pace the whole country will have at least one dose by March. It is possible they will be the first country to return to an almost normal way of life. [ourworldindata.org]

as I said earlier: There's a statistic to defend any argument you want to make.

Does that "30%" include Palestinians in the occupied territories?

no...it does not.

Hence: Israel is fudging their statistics.

This is NOT a political statement, but a mathematical one ONLY.

Please respect BV's rules and do NOT turn this into a political debate....my discussion is PURELY mathematical about the manipulation and selective use of statistics (which has been a problem since the beginning of the pandemic).

It's "easy" to get 30% vaccination rate if you don't count millions and millions of people....

as stated: Got a claim you wanna prove? There's a stat for that.

Boy your a hostile person. But you did make a good point. Adding the information you added the percentage would be a lot lower. The bottom line is we do not get back to close to normal until most of the world is vaccinated. Are we looking at one or two years? Will this take even longer considering most of Africa has not even started giving vaccines to the best of my knowledge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-19 22:24 by Rocknroll1969.

Re-Africa, the African Union purchased 270 million vaccines the other day, but the first batches won't be available till spring and the rest not until later in the year. Africa is also due to get 600 million vaccines via COVAX by the year's end and South Africa has secured 1.5 million.

Sounds like a lot, but these added together aren't enough to cover even half of the population in Africa. No idea what the overall situation is in areas like South-East Asia, Eurasia etc. Those of us in the West should not forget that we are the luckier ones by far.

Quote
Rocknroll1969

Quote
stickyfingers101

Quote
Rocknroll1969
Israel has given at least one dose of vaccine to 30 percent of the country already. It is a small country but if they keep this pace the whole country will have at least one dose by March. It is possible they will be the first country to return to an almost normal way of life. [ourworldindata.org]

as I said earlier: There's a statistic to defend any argument you want to make.

Does that "30%" include Palestinians in the occupied territories?

no...it does not.

Hence: Israel is fudging their statistics.

This is NOT a political statement, but a mathematical one ONLY.

Please respect BV's rules and do NOT turn this into a political debate....my discussion is PURELY mathematical about the manipulation and selective use of statistics (which has been a problem since the beginning of the pandemic).

It's "easy" to get 30% vaccination rate if you don't count millions and millions of people....

as stated: Got a claim you wanna prove? There's a stat for that.

Boy your a hostile person. But you did make a good point. Adding the information you added the percentage would be a lot lower. The bottom line is we do not get back to close to normal until most of the world is vaccinated. Are we looking at one or two years? Will this take even longer considering most of Africa has not even started giving vaccines to the best of my knowledge.

Hey 1969 -

sorry about that...my point was not meant to be hostile....nor was it aimed at you personally or specifically.

sorry for any confusion there...completely not meant that way.

I did write some words in BOLD for emphasis b/c there is a tendency for things to go "political" when comments about Israel/Palestine are involved and I definitely don't want to instigate that.

In all seriousness, I have been quite frustrated w/ how stats have been presented throughout the pandemic....

I just don't want you thinking it was/is aimed at you....it's not!

(I agree about not getting back to normal anytime soon...statistics say it will be at least another year...haha)

Extended lockdown with stronger rules in Germany till 14th Feb

Quote
MAF

Extended lockdown with stronger rules in Germany till 14th Feb

Article in English: [www.DW.com] .

The reasons I say that lockdowns don't work are two:
a) I look around and I see that people can't do them for very long. It's not our nature.
b) Even the rare people who can lock themselves up for months must depend on others to work for them and expose themselves. For those who cannot work or are vulnerable, this is acceptable transfer of risk. But for healthy, working people it is selfish privilege.
I am not talking about sensible precautions like wearing masks and not going to bars. Those are reasonable requests. But closing schools, certain businesses and public services have have caused damage and eroded faith in government.

In spain there is a shortage of vaccines due to pfizer chain supply problems (as pfizer states...). As a second dose availability is not guaranteed some regions have not begun to vaccinate people.