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Nate

You give the awful impression of someone that hasn’t read any of the arguments against your position.

He has (understandably) not, because Sweden goes its own way in the pandemic .... [www.BusinessInsider.com] , [www.BBC.com] .

"However, for now [13-Nov-2020], authorities are not considering recommending Swedes wear face masks, according to Euronews reporter Per Bergfors Nyberg. He says Swedish health officials believe making masks mandatory will give people a 'false sense of security' and could make matters worse." - [www.Euronews.com] .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-11-20 23:05 by Irix.

Every country have their own approach of how to handle the corona virus pandemic. Only time will tell what was the right, what was the wrong, and who failed.

Meanwhile, I trust science, and The World Health Organization. This is wjhat they say about masks:

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) advice for the public: When and how to use masks

In short, as per WHO:

Masks are a key measure to suppress transmission and save lives. Masks reduce potential exposure risk from an infected person whether they have symptoms or not. People wearing masks are protected from getting infected. Masks also prevent onward transmission when worn by a person who is infected.

Masks should be used as part of a comprehensive ‘Do it all!’ approach including: physical distancing, avoiding crowded, closed and close-contact settings, improving ventilation, cleaning hands, covering sneezes and coughs, and more.

Bjornulf

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Nate

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Stoneage
Wear a mask if you want. It won't stop the virus though. Personally, I see no reason to wear one. Fortunately, there is no mask law here. Most people don't wear one.

You give the awful impression of someone that hasn’t read any of the arguments against your position.

Nate

That's not true, Nate. And of course some personnel should wear masks. And do so. I listen to evidence. And as far as I know there is no evidence based study proving the benefits of mass mask wearing among populations. There are more significant factors involved here. But go ahead, wear one. By all means. I'm not telling you not to. I'll wear one when I'm told so.

Mask or no mask?

If masks are used in USA, there will be 400,000 covid-19 deaths by March 1. With mandates easing, there will be 650,000 deaths by March. The difference is 250,000 real people, dead or alive, that is the difference.

For my home country Norway, the numbers are 400 deaths from covid-19 by March 1 if we use masks, or 2,500 deaths with mandates easing.

Sweden will have 10,000 deaths with a mask mandate, or 40,000 deaths from covid-19 by March 1 with mandates easing.

And so on. It is not either or, but masks, distance, washing hands, all the tools used the right way, then we will be able to save lives. Many many lives. Also, we will be able to avoid lock down, and keep schools open.

Background data:

IHME, University of Washington, USA, are publishing a live prediction calculator, predicting the number of deaths in each country, based on rules of each country, related to mask mandate and so on:

Covid 19 Projections by IHME



Bjornulf



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-11-20 23:59 by bv.

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Stoneage
Wear a mask if you want. It won't stop the virus though. Personally, I see no reason to wear one. Fortunately, there is no mask law here. Most people don't wear one.

So you do not trust The World Health Organization, and their experts?

Just tell me one thing, and one thing only:

If one asymptomatic person, i.e. a person with covid-19, with no symptoms, is in a group of ten other people, talking for an hour, would a mask reduce the chance of the ten people getting sick from covid-19 by 0%, or more than zero percent? What would be the percent, and what is your basis for such a statement?

Bjornulf

Okay, BV. There are many studies out there. Enough to make you bewildered. I have heard many professors (medicine...) making predictions and juggling numbers.
So far most of them have been wrong. When it comes to this virus it isn't easy to tell. And there is a diversity even within the profession.
Anders Tegnell is receiving a lot of criticism from his peers, for instance. Constantly.

To answer your question, BV: First of all, you shouldn't be talking to a group of people for an hour without keeping safe distance. That's the key thing.
If wearing a mask makes a difference? I don't know. Maybe. The WHO? Sure, I trust them most often. Not always though. Politics sometimes gets in the way there.
As in any large organization. They are not flawless.

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Stoneage
Okay, BV. There are many studies out there. Enough to make you bewildered. I have heard many professors (medicine...) making predictions and juggling numbers.
So far most of them have been wrong. When it comes to this virus it isn't easy to tell. And there is a diversity even within the profession.
Anders Tegnell is receiving a lot of criticism from his peers, for instance. Constantly.

Sure. Welcome to the club. There are millions of people who still think the covid-19 is a hoax, and also they think that doctors invent the covid-19 cases just to make money. Doctors and nurses in Italy are getting death threats, because people think they make up cases in order to force lock down.

Still, when the hospitals break down, and they can not handle any more cases, more and more states in USA, and countries in Europe, do follow the guidelines made by WHO.

I am an optimist. Within the next few weeks, there will be a mask mandate in Sweden too.

Bjornulf

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bv

About face masks: They should ONLY be used if you are sick, and you want to avoid others from getting hit by your illness. Health experts in Norway say the masks, when used by people not being ill, will actually make things worse. First of all, they do collect drops on the outer side, also inner side, so they will collect virus rather than keeping it out. Secondly, they do not cover your eyes. Thirdly, you will fiddle with the mask every now and then, with your fingers, so you will simply have a virus collector rather than a protection.

Bv, you made quite a change in your mask Assessment there...
Now you are citing and seemingly agreeing with a study predicting xx deaths in case no masks are worn? Not very convincing.

You don’t need a large scale study to determine if a piece of cloth can stop viral particles being transmitted.

If I was infected with a virus that can be transmitted through the air and I was sitting in my car with the window wound down one inch and you were standing outside next to the window talking with myself do you think the chance of me passing on the infection to yourself would be increased if I opened the window all the way down?

Nate

Now you are off the mark, BV. I have never claimed the virus is a hoax. On the contrary. It's a life threatening disease. Still on the run. I have every respect for this virus. And any other virus.
We're all very fragile. We're just differing on the benefits of mass mask wearing. I follow the guidelines from our government closely. And do what they tell me to do. In respect of every other citizen.

Unfortunately those who are stupid and do not wear a mask get sick and both spread it and stress the healthcare system personnel and finances. If it was just affecting them I wouldn't care. Let em catch it and whatever happens happens but when it affects innocent people and society as a whole it is just selfish and irresponsible.

It's impossible to discuss this on a reasonable level. It just causes anger. So, I'm out. That is, in this case, the safest measure to take...

There's just too many unknowns still to make any conclusive statements.

First it was masks won't help, then they would, then they don't help you but help others, now a Dutch study is back to they don't help.

Then the concern was you can get it by touching hard surfaces, then they said you couldn't, then said maybe but most likely would be catching it airborne. Yet everyone is still sanitizing every hard surface.

It seems dumb to me I can walk into a restaurant with a mask on, then after sitting down take it off.

And they still don't seem to know why it affects everyone differently, like from deadly to no symptoms whatsoever.

But I still comply with all the rules, figure better safe than sorry.

Basically I think it just comes down to frustration that everyone is hearing conflicting information depending what day it is. And unfortunately this is becoming like politics and religion, it's going to be something that does nothing but starts fights because people can't debate respectfully.

Astute, Kovachs. Over and out.

No offence to anyone, but I need to let you know that the head of the Dutch Government Institute of Public Health claimed already way back in March that face masks are giving a false sense of security ... there was no scientific proof that they were really helping to stop the virus from spreading. The truth was that ... there were NO F*CKING MASKS in our country. The guy is a virologist, but only says what the government tells him. Off course he still to today is defending his statement, no surprise. But the guy has only proven that he is a very poor scientist. Scientific proof ... what is that?
As a former (white) analytical chemist I tought students in medicine, pharmatheutics, biology, etc. how to deal with analytical data. They are not just figures. You have to be able to READ figures. And not only that. In the case of facemasks there is a lot of "scientific" information that can not be overlooked. Ever since the Spanish Flu of about 100 years ago the Japanese (but along with them also many Chinese, Koreaans, etc.) have learned about the importance of facemasks. When someone catches a cold, he/she puts on a mask to protect OTHERS. We're now a hundred years further on the road and look at the data. Look at the rate of infection and the number of deaths (relative to the population). They are much, MUCH lower in the Far East than in the so called "white" world. Coincidence? Hell no.
The past 15+ years I passed through Hong Kong every year twice (not this year off course). At the airport customs people wear masks, body heart meters all over the place ... how many Covid-19 victims in Hong Kong? Peanuts.
Nothing works 100% (not even the hopefully near future vaccines!) but facemasks are making a big difference, despite what that (politically controlled) Dutch virologist still tries to tell the "deaf, dumb and blind" people in my country. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but here opinions should be based on a realistic view of what's going on, not just an opinion based on ignorence. One should not be feeling ashamed for wearing a facemask, just only ashamed for being ignorent.

The sad state of affairs is such that in the beginning of the year you were being lied to and told that masks were no good because the governments wanted to keep the limited supply available for health care workers. It's like living in a dystopian world.

Basic common sense tells you that this virus would almost certainly behave in the same way as viruses in the past - communicable through the air by water droplets generated by talking and coughing, etc.

I find it very frustrating.

I forgot where I heard this tidbit, but must have been a comedian as it is sort of funny - to paraphrase:

Do underwear stop the smell of farts from spreading?
If you can smell it, the answer is no, and to think of the multiple layers of cloth it has to go through and is still noticeable.
Same principle would apply to masks in the hope of preventing the spread of corona - exhaling is basically like farting through underwear, the molecules are still spreading everywhere.
Also, every time you inhale around people, chances are your breathing in air that others already have breathed - even when wearing a mask - similar to smelling a fart that someone let rip lol.

Not trying to make light of this, and not saying I believe in or promote the above as I constantly where a mask when out and about, but it was funny and thought provoking when I first heard it.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

I guess at present it will be difficult to raise grant money for investigating the effects of various layers of clothing (underpants, trousers, ...) on the fart load.

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georgie48
No offence to anyone, but I need to let you know that the head of the Dutch Government Institute of Public Health claimed already way back in March that face masks are giving a false sense of security ... there was no scientific proof that they were really helping to stop the virus from spreading. The truth was that ... there were NO F*CKING MASKS in our country.

We had more or less the same situation in Austria at some point back in February or March, like, no need to wear face masks because they wouldn't make a difference anyway. At the same time the government bought all masks available on the market (for giving them to hospitals) and if I remember correctly, you weren't even allowed to buy masks abroad on your own. Needless to say, this line of argument didn't last long, especially after they were reminded by doctors and scientists that while face masks may not provide full protection they may at least reduce the virus load, which does make a difference. At any rate, when we went into the first lockdown in the beginning of March, face masks were compulsory in all public places but it was very difficult to get one. At some point, pharmacies sold surgical masks at 10 euros a piece … (I had gotten my own stash from China as soon as the virus reached Italy because it was clear it was just a matter of time until it would make its way from Italy to the rest of Europe).

A conspiracy theory that I haven't heard (yet) would be that Covid was actually designed to promote the production and sale of face masks (to benefit China's national gross product). But there's always room for another conspiracy theory, so let me wait and see ….

i understood they start vaccinating in germany december 15th guess row will follow shortly after that

Life's just a cocktail party on the street

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Hairball
I forgot where I heard this tidbit, but must have been a comedian as it is sort of funny - to paraphrase:

Do underwear stop the smell of farts from spreading?
If you can smell it, the answer is no, and to think of the multiple layers of cloth it has to go through and is still noticeable.
Same principle would apply to masks in the hope of preventing the spread of corona - exhaling is basically like farting through underwear, the molecules are still spreading everywhere.
Also, every time you inhale around people, chances are your breathing in air that others already have breathed - even when wearing a mask - similar to smelling a fart that someone let rip lol.

Not trying to make light of this, and not saying I believe in or promote the above as I constantly where a mask when out and about, but it was funny and thought provoking when I first heard it.

You're right about this spreading, Hairball. Whenever someone passes by smoking a sigarette you can smell it dependent on the kind of mask you use. So you may wonder wether an infected smoker is transmitting the virus via the nicotine in the air to you (not the nicotine that directly comes from the burning sigarette).For one thing, there is the dilution factor, both in dry air or moist air. The latter is more favorable for the virus. I haven't found anything yet about nicotine being a pleasant virus carrier. Also did I not see anyone smoking a sigarette and wearing a mask at the same time.
Many months ago on a BBC TV channel they showed the difference between blowing heavily toward a burning candle with a proper facemask on (no movement of the flame at all) as well as with a shawl of any kind, like maybe a piece of underwear (the flame died instantly). I tried it myself and had the same outcome. Certainly not 100% protection, but the mask also certainly is no "false sense of security".
Doitywoik's conspiracy option is a nice one ). Another movie in the make

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calipachangero

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bv

About face masks: They should ONLY be used if you are sick, and you want to avoid others from getting hit by your illness. Health experts in Norway say the masks, when used by people not being ill, will actually make things worse. First of all, they do collect drops on the outer side, also inner side, so they will collect virus rather than keeping it out. Secondly, they do not cover your eyes. Thirdly, you will fiddle with the mask every now and then, with your fingers, so you will simply have a virus collector rather than a protection.

Bv, you made quite a change in your mask Assessment there...
Now you are citing and seemingly agreeing with a study predicting xx deaths in case no masks are worn? Not very convincing.

You are quoting a post I did February 28, 2020, on the very first page of this thread !!!! At that time, the current US president said the virus would go away in a week or two. We do all know that did not really happen. Since then, 250,000 people in USA have died, since then 1.4 million people in the world have died from covid-19. No wonder, nine months on since this post, we do know a lot more about the virus.

We do now know that the virus spread mainly by asymptomatic people, typically young people with the virus, who do not know they are sick. They go to their hair dresser, shop, the gym, their doctor, stay with their family, and we all know they live a normal life with their friends. They visit their grandparents at the nursing homes, and many work in nursing homes, stores, with contact with many people at risk.

The whole point of a mask, is to protect other people from any asymptomatic person carrying covid-19. We did not know that nine months ago, but now we do know, it is a matter of life and death.

Bjornulf

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bv

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calipachangero

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bv

About face masks: They should ONLY be used if you are sick, and you want to avoid others from getting hit by your illness. Health experts in Norway say the masks, when used by people not being ill, will actually make things worse. First of all, they do collect drops on the outer side, also inner side, so they will collect virus rather than keeping it out. Secondly, they do not cover your eyes. Thirdly, you will fiddle with the mask every now and then, with your fingers, so you will simply have a virus collector rather than a protection.

Bv, you made quite a change in your mask Assessment there...
Now you are citing and seemingly agreeing with a study predicting xx deaths in case no masks are worn? Not very convincing.

You are quoting a post I did February 28, 2020, on the very first page of this thread !!!! At that time, the current US president said the virus would go away in a week or two. We do all know that did not really happen. Since then, 250,000 people in USA have died, since then 1.4 million people in the world have died from covid-19. No wonder, nine months on since this post, we do know a lot more about the virus.

We do now know that the virus spread mainly by asymptomatic people, typically young people with the virus, who do not know they are sick. They go to their hair dresser, shop, the gym, their doctor, stay with their family, and we all know they live a normal life with their friends. They visit their grandparents at the nursing homes, and many work in nursing homes, stores, with contact with many people at risk.

The whole point of a mask, is to protect other people from any asymptomatic person carrying covid-19. We did not know that nine months ago, but now we do know, it is a matter of life and death.

"To protect other people ...". Exactly. The irony however is that those representing the asymptomatic group (I only speak for the "western world") are the ones who don't seem to understand that or simply don't care. Relatively few wear a facemask (both visible in our streets and on all kinds of international TV reportings). And even more ironic is that despite all the reporting about the virus, it doesn't even ring a bell among the majority. Positive development is that simply forbidding all kinds of social activities, like going to pubs, disco's, concerts, restaurants, etc. gets on the nerves of that group and slowly more and more, reluctantly, start using facemasks. Very strict rules and very high penalties seem to be the only way ...

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MononoM

i understood they start vaccinating in germany december

Then you had something misunderstood - the vaccine will get approval in December 2020 or early January 2021 - [iorr.org]. And if vaccination begins shortly after that, then there's a hierarchy: high-risk patients in danger of life will come first as well as other people with high risks, then medical personnel, and so on. Normal people have probably to wait until Spring 2021.

I would say that the vast majority here in the U.K. are adhering to the face-covering policy when it is mandatory to do so. Yes, there’s always some who don’t, but they’re usually the builders’ on their commute home, with their legs stretched-out onto the opposite seat, whilst cradling a can of Fosters.

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doitywoik

A conspiracy theory that I haven't heard (yet) would be that Covid was actually designed to promote the production and sale of face masks (to benefit China's national gross product).

I heard a similar rumor 25 years ago - the rumor said that Computer-Viruses were invented to sell more Anti-Virus-Software ....

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Big Al
I would say that the vast majority here in the U.K. are adhering to the face-covering policy when it is mandatory to do so. Yes, there’s always some who don’t, but they’re usually the builders’ on their commute home, with their legs stretched-out onto the opposite seat, whilst cradling a can of Fosters.

Yep Big Al, indeed the key is "mandatory"! As of December 1st wearing masks will (finally, much to late) be mandatory in the Netherlands too. Hopefully they don't apply the "first time warning" approach. It failed badly with group gathering (secret dance/disco parties in forests, f.i.) until they started to give panalties. Heavy fines, it hurts the purse and many are only sensitive to that (I was too when I was young ).

Mask wearing is uncomfortable, but the alternative is lock down. I bet most of us will survive wearing a mask for 10-20 minutes in the shopping center, per day, rather than months of lock down, because we did not care about masks.

This is from our leading national newspaper Aftenposten today, taken from a shipping center this week:





Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-11-21 13:15 by bv.

What I was referring to was a overconfidence in wearing masks. As if that's what it's all about. In reality there are many components involved. And some we don't even know about.
There also seems to be a demand for draconian measures. Due to political pressure. We have seen that in Sweden recently. Politicians giving in to that. To gain popularity.
The result of that can be horrific in the end. Businesses giving in, huge unemployment and bankruptcies. Further down the line homelessness and starvation.

[www.cdc.gov]