Tell Me :
Talk
OK, and for clarification, is it USA, or US of A?
So much for being in the pit!
I do it for the benefit of our European & elsewhere friends. It can get confusing. Like NYC vs New York State. Just trying to cut down on misunderstandings. If this were a predominantly American crowd I wouldn't do it.
As the article says one cannot say the final judgment until the crisis moves into history books. And this exactly been the strategy behind Sweden's "unorthodox approach" - to minimize the long-term effect. Especially Anders Tegnell, the head of Swedish health officials, has argued that the second wave of the virus supposedly will not not be hitting Sweden so hard as they think it will other countries (especially he has Finland in comparison). It surely looks harsh and tragical right now, but let's see what happens.
Anyway, the case of Sweden has really being an interesting one, particularly for us in Finland since we are culturally and geographically so close. I think there are some peculiar features behind their 'exceptional strategy' - which to me is difficult to say if it is 'cool-headed' or 'cold-blooded'.
First, the special role of health officials over the political leadership in making decisions. So what is important to note is that keeping the country open and not taking the lockdown further by heavy measures, is not a political decision but based on the specialist and scientific calculation what is best for the country. It is not a recommendation but a decision made by health officials. This differs, for example, from the 'march order' in Finland, where the decisions are in the hands of government (although, since they follow the recommendations of health officials, the outcome is the same). This feature, such a structural trust on specialists and institutions over political leaderhip, was a news to me.
Secondly, the people in charge trust on two important factors that rely heavily on the idea and tradition of Nordic welfare state. Roughly: if your country don't have these two, don't even dare to try this at home.
First, and most importantly, the trust on their own health care system - it is able to cope with such an overload of cases and it is covering the citizens equally. The most crucial thing is to provide a place to those in critical condition. For example, this was a feature why Finland, having lesser resources, needed to do a different decision than Sweden - we simply didn't have enough hospital beds to take the risk.
The second one is trust on the judgment of their own citizens. This probably echoes the hopes of some 'freedom-marchers' in one particular big country, but instead of not primarily trying to secure the liberties and rights of individuals it is based on sense of responsibility and solidarity typical to social democratic-based, well-educated Nordic Country. People are smart enough to do the right thing (social distancing) without heavy use of power by the government - just recommendation is enough. (Might sound idealistic, but as the data gathered by Google measering people's moving has shown, the Swedish move not signficantly differently in restaurants, stores and other public areas than the people in Finland, Norway and Denmark).
As it turned out to be, neither of these trusts didn't really work in practise as they do in a theory, but, however, good enough of not causing a bigger catastrophe. Had it tried in about almost anywhere else the results would have been disaster-like. (However, as it is argued, geography and a custom of people living in smaller units than in, say, Southern Europe helps there.)
But there is one extra feature that is rather much discussed at least here in Finland. Sweden is one lucky bastard (sic) as an European country, and haven't had much experience, if any, of any national emergencies for centuries (diplomatic wisdom or luck?). So the decision to call an emergency and start doing heavy measures by a law, is something that escapes their natural way of procedure. I have even heard that Sweden actually lacks such a heavy weapon in their lawful arsenal, but I dont know if there is any truth in there. Finland, by contrast, having enough of wars on belt during the 20th Century, and still over of thousand kilometers border with Russia, is naturally always 'ready for the worst', and thereby, the 'emergency' button is always near... (although, it wasn't any piece of cake here either legally, although having more or less 100% support by different political parties and people in general). Norway has had its own share of tough experiences as well - Norway had equal resources (those two 'trusts' I mention), but reacted differently to corona than Sweden.
Anyway, these were my observations based on following the discussion over Swedish strategy lately. It would be interesting to hear opinions from Swedish folks here - am I talking pure bullshit here...
- Doxa
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 10:54 by Doxa.
Partly true.
The biggest single factor though was the unequivocal guidance of scientists from Imperial College who had modelled the number of deaths if little was done, or if 'the curve was flattened'. This was released on March 16th. It is what the 'lockdown/isolate' policy was based around.
I'm pretty sure that Boris had a preview, and policy was changed in days. (I'm pretty sure that I posted here about it at the time, recognising that Boris had heeded advice and done a backflilp). Several levels of the heirarchy of scientific advisers to HM Govt are based at IC and would have fed this up the food chain as soon as they learnt of it.
By mid-march the number of cases in Spain and Italy were about 8k and 16k respectively (from the JHU site). I can't find a way to look at deaths by date in those countries, but looking at the cases and the timeframes, there would not by then have been the terrifying high numbers that we now seem to accept.
Edit: 250 deaths in Italy and 3 in Sweden by March 13th.
If anyone wants a copy of that paper, let me know.
--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 12:54 by CaptainCorella.
Except for the people who get sick and/or die because sensible precautions weren't taken. People are going to die any way, it's a question of how many. I think as a society we are obligated to protect as many people as we can regardless of age, race, health, wealth, etc.
Most effective protest. It definitely gets the message across. Much better than the rabble rousing approach.
I really hate how terms such as nazi and @#$%& are thrown around so casually today, it really diminishes the horror they inflicted on the world. Let's hope it never happens again (though with the sanitizing of history, we're probably unfortunately bound to repeat it) but until someone targets for execution tens of millions of people of a particular ethnic background, they should never be subjected to being compared to @#$%& or a nazi.
It's a mixture of several things.
Healthcare workers don't get enough recognition. They are obliged to work under too demanding circumstances, don't get paid very well and like you said, the shit just happened.
Try being raised on Capitol Hill In Seattle, Washington.
As a kid, all you see in the news is from the Capital, in Washington, they even talk about the report being from "the hill".
Took me years to realize the politicians and reporters weren't all in my neighborhood
The NYC vs NY State is perhaps the best analogy.
The better known, or more talked about locale, is NYC.
So a clarification is needed, especially when it's in print.
(also, it wasn't always NYC.. the city part was added for clarity.
Why isn't Seattle called Seattle City? Or Chicago- Chicago City? Because there's nothing to confuse it with)
Funny that this has come up a couple times in this thread though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 15:51 by MisterDDDD.
HAND DRAWN "RN" Badge....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!
holy crap....that's so horrible/awesome
I have to laugh, b/c otherwise I'd probably cry.
Oh dear - I was thinking of mentioning the Imperial College report, which as you say predicted a huge number of UK fatalities if the "herd immunity" strategy was followed. At this stage it all "seems about a hundred years ago" and it's hard to remember the exact order of events, but my real point was that the Government realised that a lockdown would be necessary because our health service, unlike Sweden's, wasn't up to coping with that many infections all at once.
Happy for you.
Rod
No worries - she is standing in a Tow Away Zone
Nothing to be happy about. It was the 3 countries with the most inept response to the virus. At the rate its going half the world's reported cases will be in just 3 countries.
Sweden’s outbreak has been far deadlier than those of its neighbors, but it’s still better off than many countries that enforced strict lockdowns.
I'd be interested to see what Sweden's obesity-rate is as compared to these other countries....
in fact, I'd be interested to see side-by-side death-rate/obesity rate stats.....
there's also the age-thing. If Sweden generally has a "younger" population than other places, that plays a factor....as does the overall health of elderly people and how many are in Care Facilities.
I don't know enough to speak intelligently, but I'd bet Sweden has a low obesity rate (esp. compared to the US/UK)....and, thus, healthier old people on the whole and, thus, fewer people in Elderly Care Facilities....
I'd also bet that in all of these categories, Sweden is comparable to its neighbors (BV...help me out) and, thus the importance of their lockdown decisions when compared to say, Norway.
They're not comparable to the US in any real way.
Demographics are the key to understanding all of this.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 19:36 by stickyfingers101.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: May 18, 2020 07:47
I've never really understood this: Washington is a STATE.
Why the need to say Washington State is ridiculous. It's as stupid as saying the Lower 48 (yeah yeah yeah, Alaska; however, it says without saying that there is an Upper 48, as in, 96 states).
There is a city named Washington in the District Of Columbia ie D.C. It's not a state. There are a few other states with cities named Washington.
Nobody says "In Seattle, Washington State...". Nobody says "In New York" meaning the city, they say "New York City". Nobody says "New Orleans City".
It's probably the same people that believe in chemtrails and flat Earth and listening microwaves and whatever.
Why the need to say Washington State is ridiculous. It's as stupid as saying the Lower 48 (yeah yeah yeah, Alaska; however, it says without saying that there is an Upper 48, as in, 96 states).
There is a city named Washington in the District Of Columbia ie D.C. It's not a state. There are a few other states with cities named Washington.
Nobody says "In Seattle, Washington State...". Nobody says "In New York" meaning the city, they say "New York City". Nobody says "New Orleans City".
It's probably the same people that believe in chemtrails and flat Earth and listening microwaves and whatever.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: May 18, 2020 08:05
Quote
GasLightStreet
I've never really understood this: Washington is a STATE.
Why the need to say Washington State is ridiculous. It's as stupid as saying the Lower 48 (yeah yeah yeah, Alaska; however, it says without saying that there is an Upper 48, as in, 96 states).
There is a city named Washington in the District Of Columbia ie D.C. It's not a state. There are a few other states with cities named Washington.
Nobody says "In Seattle, Washington State...". Nobody says "In New York" meaning the city, they say "New York City". Nobody says "New Orleans City".
It's probably the same people that believe in chemtrails and flat Earth and listening microwaves and whatever.
OK, and for clarification, is it USA, or US of A?
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
JadedFaded
()
Date: May 18, 2020 08:45
Quote
artedm
video
Why Stadiums Are Incubators for Coronavirus Spread
Sports fans are longing to return to the stands, but health experts say stadiums are one of the highest-risk areas for coronavirus transmission. Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease specialist, walks us through how easily the virus could spread among the crowd
[www.wsj.com]
So much for being in the pit!
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
crholmstrom
()
Date: May 18, 2020 10:15
Quote
GasLightStreet
I've never really understood this: Washington is a STATE.
Why the need to say Washington State is ridiculous. It's as stupid as saying the Lower 48 (yeah yeah yeah, Alaska; however, it says without saying that there is an Upper 48, as in, 96 states).
There is a city named Washington in the District Of Columbia ie D.C. It's not a state. There are a few other states with cities named Washington.
Nobody says "In Seattle, Washington State...". Nobody says "In New York" meaning the city, they say "New York City". Nobody says "New Orleans City".
It's probably the same people that believe in chemtrails and flat Earth and listening microwaves and whatever.
I do it for the benefit of our European & elsewhere friends. It can get confusing. Like NYC vs New York State. Just trying to cut down on misunderstandings. If this were a predominantly American crowd I wouldn't do it.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: May 18, 2020 10:35
Quote
curt
The ‘Swedish Model’ Is a Failure, Not a Panacea
When economies around the world started grinding to a halt in an effort to stop the carnage inflicted by the coronavirus, Sweden stood out with an approach that appeared to defy the prescription of most experts. Instead of shutting down, the Swedish government opted for much milder measures. The idea looked appealing. It suggested the possibility of containing the pandemic at a much lower economic cost.
The final judgment on Sweden’s unorthodox approach cannot be rendered until the crisis moves into the history books. So far, however, the statistics suggest that the Swedish model is more disaster than panacea. If the pandemic ended today, the actions of Swedish authorities, which have so far earned the support of the population, may ultimately be viewed by future generations of Swedes as a shameful chapter in the country’s history, one that resulted in large-scale suffering and thousands of unnecessary deaths. ...
As the article says one cannot say the final judgment until the crisis moves into history books. And this exactly been the strategy behind Sweden's "unorthodox approach" - to minimize the long-term effect. Especially Anders Tegnell, the head of Swedish health officials, has argued that the second wave of the virus supposedly will not not be hitting Sweden so hard as they think it will other countries (especially he has Finland in comparison). It surely looks harsh and tragical right now, but let's see what happens.
Anyway, the case of Sweden has really being an interesting one, particularly for us in Finland since we are culturally and geographically so close. I think there are some peculiar features behind their 'exceptional strategy' - which to me is difficult to say if it is 'cool-headed' or 'cold-blooded'.
First, the special role of health officials over the political leadership in making decisions. So what is important to note is that keeping the country open and not taking the lockdown further by heavy measures, is not a political decision but based on the specialist and scientific calculation what is best for the country. It is not a recommendation but a decision made by health officials. This differs, for example, from the 'march order' in Finland, where the decisions are in the hands of government (although, since they follow the recommendations of health officials, the outcome is the same). This feature, such a structural trust on specialists and institutions over political leaderhip, was a news to me.
Secondly, the people in charge trust on two important factors that rely heavily on the idea and tradition of Nordic welfare state. Roughly: if your country don't have these two, don't even dare to try this at home.
First, and most importantly, the trust on their own health care system - it is able to cope with such an overload of cases and it is covering the citizens equally. The most crucial thing is to provide a place to those in critical condition. For example, this was a feature why Finland, having lesser resources, needed to do a different decision than Sweden - we simply didn't have enough hospital beds to take the risk.
The second one is trust on the judgment of their own citizens. This probably echoes the hopes of some 'freedom-marchers' in one particular big country, but instead of not primarily trying to secure the liberties and rights of individuals it is based on sense of responsibility and solidarity typical to social democratic-based, well-educated Nordic Country. People are smart enough to do the right thing (social distancing) without heavy use of power by the government - just recommendation is enough. (Might sound idealistic, but as the data gathered by Google measering people's moving has shown, the Swedish move not signficantly differently in restaurants, stores and other public areas than the people in Finland, Norway and Denmark).
As it turned out to be, neither of these trusts didn't really work in practise as they do in a theory, but, however, good enough of not causing a bigger catastrophe. Had it tried in about almost anywhere else the results would have been disaster-like. (However, as it is argued, geography and a custom of people living in smaller units than in, say, Southern Europe helps there.)
But there is one extra feature that is rather much discussed at least here in Finland. Sweden is one lucky bastard (sic) as an European country, and haven't had much experience, if any, of any national emergencies for centuries (diplomatic wisdom or luck?). So the decision to call an emergency and start doing heavy measures by a law, is something that escapes their natural way of procedure. I have even heard that Sweden actually lacks such a heavy weapon in their lawful arsenal, but I dont know if there is any truth in there. Finland, by contrast, having enough of wars on belt during the 20th Century, and still over of thousand kilometers border with Russia, is naturally always 'ready for the worst', and thereby, the 'emergency' button is always near... (although, it wasn't any piece of cake here either legally, although having more or less 100% support by different political parties and people in general). Norway has had its own share of tough experiences as well - Norway had equal resources (those two 'trusts' I mention), but reacted differently to corona than Sweden.
Anyway, these were my observations based on following the discussion over Swedish strategy lately. It would be interesting to hear opinions from Swedish folks here - am I talking pure bullshit here...
- Doxa
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 10:54 by Doxa.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: May 18, 2020 12:08
Doxa: The UK government at first had some idea of following the Swedish model, but as you say, in a country where the health service was less well prepared than Sweden's, it would have been a recipe for disaster. Having seen what was happening in Italy and Spain, with hospitals overwhelmed, the message quickly became Stay Home and Protect the NHS (my italics).
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
CaptainCorella
()
Date: May 18, 2020 12:38
Quote
Green Lady
Doxa: The UK government at first had some idea of following the Swedish model, but as you say, in a country where the health service was less well prepared than Sweden's, it would have been a recipe for disaster. Having seen what was happening in Italy and Spain, with hospitals overwhelmed, the message quickly became Stay Home and Protect the NHS (my italics).
Partly true.
The biggest single factor though was the unequivocal guidance of scientists from Imperial College who had modelled the number of deaths if little was done, or if 'the curve was flattened'. This was released on March 16th. It is what the 'lockdown/isolate' policy was based around.
I'm pretty sure that Boris had a preview, and policy was changed in days. (I'm pretty sure that I posted here about it at the time, recognising that Boris had heeded advice and done a backflilp). Several levels of the heirarchy of scientific advisers to HM Govt are based at IC and would have fed this up the food chain as soon as they learnt of it.
By mid-march the number of cases in Spain and Italy were about 8k and 16k respectively (from the JHU site). I can't find a way to look at deaths by date in those countries, but looking at the cases and the timeframes, there would not by then have been the terrifying high numbers that we now seem to accept.
Edit: 250 deaths in Italy and 3 in Sweden by March 13th.
If anyone wants a copy of that paper, let me know.
--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 12:54 by CaptainCorella.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Svartmer
()
Date: May 18, 2020 12:39
There has been restrictions also here in Sweden, just ask all the companies, retaurants and other entrepeneurs that have been going bankrupt because of the lack of customers, and all the elder people who has been isolated from their relativs for months now.
That said, I think it´s difficult to draw any conclusions about which country that has the best strategy as long as the pandemi is ongoing. Maybe a year from now we will see how well the different countries succeeded in this struggle. One thing is for certain, the virus doesn´t go away just because countries are closing down everything,it will just prolong the process.
That said, I think it´s difficult to draw any conclusions about which country that has the best strategy as long as the pandemi is ongoing. Maybe a year from now we will see how well the different countries succeeded in this struggle. One thing is for certain, the virus doesn´t go away just because countries are closing down everything,it will just prolong the process.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
crholmstrom
()
Date: May 18, 2020 12:49
Quote
Svartmer
There has been restrictions also here in Sweden, just ask all the companies, retaurants and other entrepeneurs that have been going bankrupt because of the lack of customers, and all the elder people who has been isolated from their relativs for months now.
That said, I think it´s difficult to draw any conclusions about which country that has the best strategy as long as the pandemi is ongoing. Maybe a year from now we will see how well the different countries succeeded in this struggle. One thing is for certain, the virus doesn´t go away just because countries are closing down everything,it will just prolong the process.
Except for the people who get sick and/or die because sensible precautions weren't taken. People are going to die any way, it's a question of how many. I think as a society we are obligated to protect as many people as we can regardless of age, race, health, wealth, etc.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: May 18, 2020 13:02
Yeah, Green Lady, it is important to notice the differencies between the countries and their resources and culture to cope with the situation. Even though there might be an over-all model or suggestion for strategy recommended by The WHO, its application varies from country to country. For example, here in Finland the lockdown never been as strong or strict as, say, in Italy or Spain. Yeah, the schools been out (open now), as bars, restaurants and hotels, but all of the shops, barbers, etc. have been open, and no strict restriction for people's moving around (Helsinki area was locked out from teh rest of the country for some, though). It is clearly quiter than normal, but there aren't really ghost towns. Lots of recommendations for sure. But not much difference to Sweden in practise, really. People don't wear much masks either (the policy over those have been rather confusing - to use or not - and their use is not much stressed even by now).
The reason I picked up Sweden was because it seems to be such an anomaly in Europe. Their model might sound crazy for many of us, but my point was to show some rationale behind their chosen strategy. And I think it is important to notice that it is not based on some partisan politics to save the economy - like it is an issue between listening to businessmen or to health officials, as it seems to be any many places - but on science and expertisism in health. Sweden does what their health specialists say. And like Svartmer pointed out, there've been some restrictions by authorities as well.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 13:30 by Doxa.
The reason I picked up Sweden was because it seems to be such an anomaly in Europe. Their model might sound crazy for many of us, but my point was to show some rationale behind their chosen strategy. And I think it is important to notice that it is not based on some partisan politics to save the economy - like it is an issue between listening to businessmen or to health officials, as it seems to be any many places - but on science and expertisism in health. Sweden does what their health specialists say. And like Svartmer pointed out, there've been some restrictions by authorities as well.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 13:30 by Doxa.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: May 18, 2020 13:07
About Washington D.C. and Washington State... Sure it is confusing. Many times US press just say "Washington" when they talk about some sort of government issues. I guess if you live in USA you know if it is related to the State or D.C.
Anyway, there are probably a Lincoln and a Springfield many places in USA too, it seems like there are at least two or more many cities with the same name. I work with a company located in Portland Oregon (where many homeless live in tents on the streets), while for many years that very same company had a sales manager located in Portland Maine... Totally different state, same name of the city. And according to Google Maps there is also a Portland in Tennessee...
And Madison is a city name found in Wisconsin, also found in some other states, while many not living in USA call MSG - The famous Madison Square Garden in NYC, just "Madison", while that does not really make any sense. You just need to pay attention to the context where names are being used. There are many Michael and Keith too, in UK, but we do know when these names are used in "our" context.
Bjornulf
Anyway, there are probably a Lincoln and a Springfield many places in USA too, it seems like there are at least two or more many cities with the same name. I work with a company located in Portland Oregon (where many homeless live in tents on the streets), while for many years that very same company had a sales manager located in Portland Maine... Totally different state, same name of the city. And according to Google Maps there is also a Portland in Tennessee...
And Madison is a city name found in Wisconsin, also found in some other states, while many not living in USA call MSG - The famous Madison Square Garden in NYC, just "Madison", while that does not really make any sense. You just need to pay attention to the context where names are being used. There are many Michael and Keith too, in UK, but we do know when these names are used in "our" context.
Bjornulf
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: May 18, 2020 13:19
Health care workers turn their backs on Belgian prime minister (Euronews 17 May 2020)
Health workers took a stand against Belgium’s prime minister on the weekend, quite literally turning their backs in protest as she visited a hospital in Brussels.
Sophie Wilmes was arriving in a convoy of cars, and medical and non-medical staff lined the road leading up to the Hospital Saint-Pierre, turning their back on her as she passed.
The government has faced criticism over its handling of the coronavirus pandemic, with Belgium currently reporting the highest deaths per capita out of any country.
Bjornulf
Health workers took a stand against Belgium’s prime minister on the weekend, quite literally turning their backs in protest as she visited a hospital in Brussels.
Sophie Wilmes was arriving in a convoy of cars, and medical and non-medical staff lined the road leading up to the Hospital Saint-Pierre, turning their back on her as she passed.
The government has faced criticism over its handling of the coronavirus pandemic, with Belgium currently reporting the highest deaths per capita out of any country.
Bjornulf
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
crholmstrom
()
Date: May 18, 2020 13:32
Quote
bv
Health care workers turn their backs on Belgian prime minister (Euronews 17 May 2020)
Health workers took a stand against Belgium’s prime minister on the weekend, quite literally turning their backs in protest as she visited a hospital in Brussels.
Sophie Wilmes was arriving in a convoy of cars, and medical and non-medical staff lined the road leading up to the Hospital Saint-Pierre, turning their back on her as she passed.
The government has faced criticism over its handling of the coronavirus pandemic, with Belgium currently reporting the highest deaths per capita out of any country.
Most effective protest. It definitely gets the message across. Much better than the rabble rousing approach.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: May 18, 2020 13:57
Thank you, BV, pointing out Belgium. For some reason, the situation there hasn't attracted much international interest by now (at least the news media I follow - could it be that we Trump-like just follow the big, absolute numbers?), but the fatalities per capita are terrible there. I wonder what is the story there - is there a good reason to protest chosen politics or is that the shit just happened, the bloody virus initially spread so quickly that there was not much one can do (like in some parts of Italy, Spain and France).
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 14:04 by Doxa.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 14:04 by Doxa.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Beast
()
Date: May 18, 2020 14:49
A shortened World Health Assembly is taking place today and tomorrow - virtually (accessible via the link below).
Cue lots of repetitive statements about COVID-19.
Another key issue will be Taiwan's observership status, which it has been denied for the past 4-5 years. Some feel that its case (strongly supported right now by the USA in particular) has been strengthened by its success in tackling the pandemic. It will be interesting to see how many Member States compared with before are now willing to vote in favour of letting Taiwan back in as an observer.
[www.who.int]
Cue lots of repetitive statements about COVID-19.
Another key issue will be Taiwan's observership status, which it has been denied for the past 4-5 years. Some feel that its case (strongly supported right now by the USA in particular) has been strengthened by its success in tackling the pandemic. It will be interesting to see how many Member States compared with before are now willing to vote in favour of letting Taiwan back in as an observer.
[www.who.int]
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
kovach
()
Date: May 18, 2020 15:20
Quote
bv
I have been called a communist and a nazi and a dictator and a marxist and many many other names you would never use on a friend, not even on your enemy. I don't care what people call me, but when both red and blue individuals in USA call me by names that is fine by me. Then I know I am not that biased.
I really hate how terms such as nazi and @#$%& are thrown around so casually today, it really diminishes the horror they inflicted on the world. Let's hope it never happens again (though with the sanitizing of history, we're probably unfortunately bound to repeat it) but until someone targets for execution tens of millions of people of a particular ethnic background, they should never be subjected to being compared to @#$%& or a nazi.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
kovach
()
Date: May 18, 2020 15:23
Looks like a pretty good statistical summary of where we stand:
How does the Coronavirus compare to the flu?
How does the Coronavirus compare to the flu?
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: May 18, 2020 15:25
Our national broadcasting TV channel NRK are making reports from across the world. For two months now, since the lockdown March 12, they have been broadcasting on their main channel all day, 10:00 - 20:00 daily, also 8:00 - 10:00 mornings Mon-Fri. Supplementing with BBC, CNN and Swedish TV etc is giving quite a good picture of the status across the world.
Today NRK made a report about Argentina. The report was really on the economy, being broken, but then they mentioned how Argentina was handling the corona pandemic. The president in Argentina declared the corona pandemic a federal emergency two months ago, taking action fast, and due to this fact, the numbers in Argentina are low. By comparing Argentina to Brazil, it is easy to see how different these two countries have been handling the pandemic.
May 10-17 fatalities rate increase:
Argentina : 373 / 305 = 1.22
Brazil : 16,118 / 11,123 = 1.45
Deaths per 1 million population:
Argentina : 373 / 44 = 8
Brazil : 16,118 / 201 = 80
Argentina projected number of deaths by August 4 is a total of 680, while Brazil is estimated to have a total number of deaths of 88,000.
In short, the human lives cost, as well as the economical cost, will be 10-20 times larger for Brazil, per milion population, versus Argentina. Both ethics as well as economy wise it is smart to limit the spread of the virus.
References:
Corona virus numbers by Worldometer
Covid-19 Projection by IHME
Bjornulf
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 15:28 by bv.
Today NRK made a report about Argentina. The report was really on the economy, being broken, but then they mentioned how Argentina was handling the corona pandemic. The president in Argentina declared the corona pandemic a federal emergency two months ago, taking action fast, and due to this fact, the numbers in Argentina are low. By comparing Argentina to Brazil, it is easy to see how different these two countries have been handling the pandemic.
May 10-17 fatalities rate increase:
Argentina : 373 / 305 = 1.22
Brazil : 16,118 / 11,123 = 1.45
Deaths per 1 million population:
Argentina : 373 / 44 = 8
Brazil : 16,118 / 201 = 80
Argentina projected number of deaths by August 4 is a total of 680, while Brazil is estimated to have a total number of deaths of 88,000.
In short, the human lives cost, as well as the economical cost, will be 10-20 times larger for Brazil, per milion population, versus Argentina. Both ethics as well as economy wise it is smart to limit the spread of the virus.
References:
Corona virus numbers by Worldometer
Covid-19 Projection by IHME
Bjornulf
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 15:28 by bv.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: May 18, 2020 15:28
Quote
Doxa
Thank you, BV, pointing out Belgium. For some reason, the situation there hasn't attracted much international interest by now (at least the news media I follow - could it be that we Trump-like just follow the big, absolute numbers?), but the fatalities per capita are terrible there. I wonder what is the story there - is there a good reason to protest chosen politics or is that the shit just happened, the bloody virus initially spread so quickly that there was not much one can do (like in some parts of Italy, Spain and France).
- Doxa
It's a mixture of several things.
Healthcare workers don't get enough recognition. They are obliged to work under too demanding circumstances, don't get paid very well and like you said, the shit just happened.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: May 18, 2020 15:40
Quote
crholmstromQuote
GasLightStreet
I've never really understood this: Washington is a STATE.
Why the need to say Washington State is ridiculous. It's as stupid as saying the Lower 48 (yeah yeah yeah, Alaska; however, it says without saying that there is an Upper 48, as in, 96 states).
There is a city named Washington in the District Of Columbia ie D.C. It's not a state. There are a few other states with cities named Washington.
Nobody says "In Seattle, Washington State...". Nobody says "In New York" meaning the city, they say "New York City". Nobody says "New Orleans City".
It's probably the same people that believe in chemtrails and flat Earth and listening microwaves and whatever.
I do it for the benefit of our European & elsewhere friends. It can get confusing. Like NYC vs New York State. Just trying to cut down on misunderstandings. If this were a predominantly American crowd I wouldn't do it.
Try being raised on Capitol Hill In Seattle, Washington.
As a kid, all you see in the news is from the Capital, in Washington, they even talk about the report being from "the hill".
Took me years to realize the politicians and reporters weren't all in my neighborhood
The NYC vs NY State is perhaps the best analogy.
The better known, or more talked about locale, is NYC.
So a clarification is needed, especially when it's in print.
(also, it wasn't always NYC.. the city part was added for clarity.
Why isn't Seattle called Seattle City? Or Chicago- Chicago City? Because there's nothing to confuse it with)
Funny that this has come up a couple times in this thread though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 15:51 by MisterDDDD.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: May 18, 2020 16:09
Very effective silent protest by the medical staff in Belgium.
Unfortunately, when something is effective, people will find a way to use it for their own purposes.
This is from yesterday, notice the creases on the uniform indicating brand new out of a package and the hand drawn 'RN" badge. Despicable.
Then there was this last month.
Arizona GOP chair encourages anti-stay-at-home protesters to dress like health care workers
Washington (CNN)The chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party is encouraging people planning to protest stay-at-home orders imposed amid the coronavirus pandemic to dress like health care workers.
Recently, several health care workers around the country have worn their scrubs and medical gear to counterprotest against people calling for states to reopen against the urgings of medical experts.
Dr. Kelli Ward, a former state senator and primary care physician, tweeted on Friday that people participating in protests to end the government-imposed closures of regular business should wear scrubs and masks.
"Planning protest to #ReOpenAmerica? EVERYONE wear scrubs & masks - the media doesn't care if you are really in healthcare or not - it's the 'message' that matters," she wrote.
[www.cnn.com]
Unfortunately, when something is effective, people will find a way to use it for their own purposes.
This is from yesterday, notice the creases on the uniform indicating brand new out of a package and the hand drawn 'RN" badge. Despicable.
Then there was this last month.
Arizona GOP chair encourages anti-stay-at-home protesters to dress like health care workers
Washington (CNN)The chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party is encouraging people planning to protest stay-at-home orders imposed amid the coronavirus pandemic to dress like health care workers.
Recently, several health care workers around the country have worn their scrubs and medical gear to counterprotest against people calling for states to reopen against the urgings of medical experts.
Dr. Kelli Ward, a former state senator and primary care physician, tweeted on Friday that people participating in protests to end the government-imposed closures of regular business should wear scrubs and masks.
"Planning protest to #ReOpenAmerica? EVERYONE wear scrubs & masks - the media doesn't care if you are really in healthcare or not - it's the 'message' that matters," she wrote.
[www.cnn.com]
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: May 18, 2020 16:42
Week-by-week covid-19 fatality numbers
The following is a weekly summary of the covid-19 i.e. corona virus fatality numbers. This will be the last time I do an update on these numbers. I have been updating these numbers for more than two months now, since March 8. Most countries in the table are now past the peak, and numbers are going down. Some countries may get a new peak, and also a second wave. Paying attention to the numbers is important.
Italy and Spain are both having large fatality numbers, but due to lockdown, both are now at a low fatality growth rate of 1.04 i.e. 4% increase of deaths week by week. Since the total number of deaths is large, the daily and weekly numbers are large too, but the virus is under control, and the wave is over during the summer, as long as the opening up is still under control.
China, South Korea and Japan do all have single digit fatalities per million population. Also, they have the virus spread under control. Japan do still have an increase in fatalities which is higher than others, but the numbers week by week are down from 92% four weeks ago into 29% now. Japan will have the same low rate of 4% in a few weeks time, by a proper control.
France seems to have an increase of the fatality rate, but looking at the numbers behind the rate, there was an unusual large number of 483 fatalities reported on one single day, May 17, while the average number of fatalities have been going down for a month now, and it is now at approx 250 peak days, so France is not far behind Spain an Italy in containing the virus.
UK have a fatality rate of 1.19, which is at the level Spain and Italy had one month ago. It might take another month with shutdown to get UK down to the current lower fatality rates we now see in Spain and Italy.
USA and Canada do have the same decline in the fatality rate, less than a week apart, coming from 400% increase in fatalities by March 29, into 13% vs 19% weekly fatalities increase now. Canada do have a much lower total fatality number vs USA, with just half the number of fatalities per million population.
Germany and Norway do both have a low lumber of fatalities per million population, also a decrease in fatality rate into now 1.06 i.e. 6% more deaths vs one week ago. Norway have not had any new deaths from Covid-19 in four days, so the virus is not giving much load for the health system anymore.
Most of the coutries across the world are now opening up slowly. By testing, trace, locate, quantine, it will be possible to open up business gradually. Borders will still be closed for a long time, and large crowds will not be allowed until next year. Meanwhile, over these past two months, the world have learned a lot about how to take control of the virus. The next phase is now taking control of the opening up - not too fast, not too slow.
Explanation:
m-08, m-15, a-05, m-03, m10 etc are the multiplication factor in the number of deaths week-by-week, as measured on the week ending with March-08, March-15, April-05, May-03, May-10 etc.
Reference numbers:
[www.worldometers.info]
WHO advices on how to slow down the virus:
1. Keep a physical distance of more than 2 m / 6 feet to people
2. Wash your hands properly and often
3. Limit the number of people you have contact with, max 2-5 people
Bjornulf
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 16:42 by bv.
The following is a weekly summary of the covid-19 i.e. corona virus fatality numbers. This will be the last time I do an update on these numbers. I have been updating these numbers for more than two months now, since March 8. Most countries in the table are now past the peak, and numbers are going down. Some countries may get a new peak, and also a second wave. Paying attention to the numbers is important.
Italy and Spain are both having large fatality numbers, but due to lockdown, both are now at a low fatality growth rate of 1.04 i.e. 4% increase of deaths week by week. Since the total number of deaths is large, the daily and weekly numbers are large too, but the virus is under control, and the wave is over during the summer, as long as the opening up is still under control.
China, South Korea and Japan do all have single digit fatalities per million population. Also, they have the virus spread under control. Japan do still have an increase in fatalities which is higher than others, but the numbers week by week are down from 92% four weeks ago into 29% now. Japan will have the same low rate of 4% in a few weeks time, by a proper control.
France seems to have an increase of the fatality rate, but looking at the numbers behind the rate, there was an unusual large number of 483 fatalities reported on one single day, May 17, while the average number of fatalities have been going down for a month now, and it is now at approx 250 peak days, so France is not far behind Spain an Italy in containing the virus.
UK have a fatality rate of 1.19, which is at the level Spain and Italy had one month ago. It might take another month with shutdown to get UK down to the current lower fatality rates we now see in Spain and Italy.
USA and Canada do have the same decline in the fatality rate, less than a week apart, coming from 400% increase in fatalities by March 29, into 13% vs 19% weekly fatalities increase now. Canada do have a much lower total fatality number vs USA, with just half the number of fatalities per million population.
Germany and Norway do both have a low lumber of fatalities per million population, also a decrease in fatality rate into now 1.06 i.e. 6% more deaths vs one week ago. Norway have not had any new deaths from Covid-19 in four days, so the virus is not giving much load for the health system anymore.
Most of the coutries across the world are now opening up slowly. By testing, trace, locate, quantine, it will be possible to open up business gradually. Borders will still be closed for a long time, and large crowds will not be allowed until next year. Meanwhile, over these past two months, the world have learned a lot about how to take control of the virus. The next phase is now taking control of the opening up - not too fast, not too slow.
Explanation:
m-08, m-15, a-05, m-03, m10 etc are the multiplication factor in the number of deaths week-by-week, as measured on the week ending with March-08, March-15, April-05, May-03, May-10 etc.
Reference numbers:
[www.worldometers.info]
WHO advices on how to slow down the virus:
1. Keep a physical distance of more than 2 m / 6 feet to people
2. Wash your hands properly and often
3. Limit the number of people you have contact with, max 2-5 people
Bjornulf
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 16:42 by bv.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
stickyfingers101
()
Date: May 18, 2020 16:43
Quote
MisterDDDD
Very effective silent protest by the medical staff in Belgium.
Unfortunately, when something is effective, people will find a way to use it for their own purposes.
This is from yesterday, notice the creases on the uniform indicating brand new out of a package and the hand drawn 'RN" badge. Despicable.
Then there was this last month.
Arizona GOP chair encourages anti-stay-at-home protesters to dress like health care workers
Washington (CNN)The chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party is encouraging people planning to protest stay-at-home orders imposed amid the coronavirus pandemic to dress like health care workers.
Recently, several health care workers around the country have worn their scrubs and medical gear to counterprotest against people calling for states to reopen against the urgings of medical experts.
Dr. Kelli Ward, a former state senator and primary care physician, tweeted on Friday that people participating in protests to end the government-imposed closures of regular business should wear scrubs and masks.
"Planning protest to #ReOpenAmerica? EVERYONE wear scrubs & masks - the media doesn't care if you are really in healthcare or not - it's the 'message' that matters," she wrote.
[www.cnn.com]
HAND DRAWN "RN" Badge....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!
holy crap....that's so horrible/awesome
I have to laugh, b/c otherwise I'd probably cry.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: May 18, 2020 16:50
Quote
CaptainCorellaQuote
Green Lady
Doxa: The UK government at first had some idea of following the Swedish model, but as you say, in a country where the health service was less well prepared than Sweden's, it would have been a recipe for disaster. Having seen what was happening in Italy and Spain, with hospitals overwhelmed, the message quickly became Stay Home and Protect the NHS (my italics).
Partly true.
The biggest single factor though was the unequivocal guidance of scientists from Imperial College who had modelled the number of deaths if little was done, or if 'the curve was flattened'. This was released on March 16th. It is what the 'lockdown/isolate' policy was based around.
I'm pretty sure that Boris had a preview, and policy was changed in days. (I'm pretty sure that I posted here about it at the time, recognising that Boris had heeded advice and done a backflilp). Several levels of the heirarchy of scientific advisers to HM Govt are based at IC and would have fed this up the food chain as soon as they learnt of it.
By mid-march the number of cases in Spain and Italy were about 8k and 16k respectively (from the JHU site). I can't find a way to look at deaths by date in those countries, but looking at the cases and the timeframes, there would not by then have been the terrifying high numbers that we now seem to accept.
Edit: 250 deaths in Italy and 3 in Sweden by March 13th.
If anyone wants a copy of that paper, let me know.
Oh dear - I was thinking of mentioning the Imperial College report, which as you say predicted a huge number of UK fatalities if the "herd immunity" strategy was followed. At this stage it all "seems about a hundred years ago" and it's hard to remember the exact order of events, but my real point was that the Government realised that a lockdown would be necessary because our health service, unlike Sweden's, wasn't up to coping with that many infections all at once.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bitusa2012
()
Date: May 18, 2020 16:59
Quote
daspyknows
A few weeks ago I predicted the top 3 would be U.S., Russia and Brazil.
Happy for you.
Rod
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Beast
()
Date: May 18, 2020 17:31
There is a lot of research-based info about COVID-19 on the website below. One result of the research is that the UK now considers loss of taste and smell (anosmia) to be a symptom of the disease. Anyone with the symptom is told to have a coronavirus test and to self-isolate.
The data are gathered from UK and US participants in the research, which is being carried out by King's College London, Massachussetts General Hospital and a health science company (ZOE). Swedes also started taking part in the project this week.
I haven't checked the small print, but it looks as if anyone in the UK, USA and Sweden can sign up to take part.
[covid.joinzoe.com]
The data are gathered from UK and US participants in the research, which is being carried out by King's College London, Massachussetts General Hospital and a health science company (ZOE). Swedes also started taking part in the project this week.
I haven't checked the small print, but it looks as if anyone in the UK, USA and Sweden can sign up to take part.
[covid.joinzoe.com]
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Chris Fountain
()
Date: May 18, 2020 17:36
Quote
stickyfingers101Quote
MisterDDDD
Very effective silent protest by the medical staff in Belgium.
Unfortunately, when something is effective, people will find a way to use it for their own purposes.
This is from yesterday, notice the creases on the uniform indicating brand new out of a package and the hand drawn 'RN" badge. Despicable.
Then there was this last month.
Arizona GOP chair encourages anti-stay-at-home protesters to dress like health care workers
Washington (CNN)The chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party is encouraging people planning to protest stay-at-home orders imposed amid the coronavirus pandemic to dress like health care workers.
Recently, several health care workers around the country have worn their scrubs and medical gear to counterprotest against people calling for states to reopen against the urgings of medical experts.
Dr. Kelli Ward, a former state senator and primary care physician, tweeted on Friday that people participating in protests to end the government-imposed closures of regular business should wear scrubs and masks.
"Planning protest to #ReOpenAmerica? EVERYONE wear scrubs & masks - the media doesn't care if you are really in healthcare or not - it's the 'message' that matters," she wrote.
[www.cnn.com]
HAND DRAWN "RN" Badge....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!
holy crap....that's so horrible/awesome
I have to laugh, b/c otherwise I'd probably cry.
No worries - she is standing in a Tow Away Zone
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: May 18, 2020 18:13
Quote
bitusa2012Quote
daspyknows
A few weeks ago I predicted the top 3 would be U.S., Russia and Brazil.
Happy for you.
Nothing to be happy about. It was the 3 countries with the most inept response to the virus. At the rate its going half the world's reported cases will be in just 3 countries.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: May 18, 2020 19:01
Sweden Stayed Open. A Deadly Month Shows the Risks.
Sweden’s outbreak has been far deadlier than those of its neighbors, but it’s still better off than many countries that enforced strict lockdowns.
By late March, nearly every country in Europe had closed schools and businesses, restricted travel and ordered citizens to stay home. But one country stood out for its decision to stay open: Sweden.
The country’s moderated response to the coronavirus outbreak has drawn praise from some American politicians, who see Sweden as a possible model for the United States as it begins to reopen. “We need to observe with an open mind what went on in Sweden, where the kids kept going to school,” Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a Republican, said at a hearing on Tuesday.
But while Sweden has avoided the devastating tolls of outbreaks in Italy, Spain and Britain, it also has seen an extraordinary increase in deaths, mortality data show.
By late March, nearly every country in Europe had closed schools and businesses, restricted travel and ordered citizens to stay home. But one country stood out for its decision to stay open: Sweden.
The country’s moderated response to the coronavirus outbreak has drawn praise from some American politicians, who see Sweden as a possible model for the United States as it begins to reopen. “We need to observe with an open mind what went on in Sweden, where the kids kept going to school,” Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a Republican, said at a hearing on Tuesday.
But while Sweden has avoided the devastating tolls of outbreaks in Italy, Spain and Britain, it also has seen an extraordinary increase in deaths, mortality data show.
Across Sweden, almost 30 percent more people died during the epidemic than is normal during this time of year, an increase similar to that of the United States and far higher than the small increases seen in its neighboring countries. While Sweden is the largest country in Scandinavia, all have strong public health care systems and low health inequality across the population.
“It’s not a very flattering comparison for Sweden, which has such a great public health system,” said Andrew Noymer, a demographer at the University of California at Irvine. “There’s no reason Sweden should be doing worse than Norway, Denmark and Finland.”
COUNTRY PCT ABOVE NORMAL
EXCESS DEATHS TIME PERIOD
United Kingdom
+67% 53,300 Mar. 14 - May 1
Spain
+60% 31,500 Mar. 16 - May 3
Belgium
+50% 5,300 Mar. 16 - Apr. 19
Netherlands
+50% 8,700 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Italy
+49% 24,600 March
France
+44% 28,500 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Sweden
+27% 3,300 Mar. 16 - May 3
Switzerland
+24% 2,000 Mar. 16 - May 3
Portugal
+15% 1,300 Mar. 16 - Apr. 12
Austria
+11% 1,000 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Germany
+6% 4,100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 12
Denmark
+5% 300 Mar. 16 - May 3
Norway
+0% <100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Finland
+0% <100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
[www.nytimes.com]
Sweden’s outbreak has been far deadlier than those of its neighbors, but it’s still better off than many countries that enforced strict lockdowns.
By late March, nearly every country in Europe had closed schools and businesses, restricted travel and ordered citizens to stay home. But one country stood out for its decision to stay open: Sweden.
The country’s moderated response to the coronavirus outbreak has drawn praise from some American politicians, who see Sweden as a possible model for the United States as it begins to reopen. “We need to observe with an open mind what went on in Sweden, where the kids kept going to school,” Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a Republican, said at a hearing on Tuesday.
But while Sweden has avoided the devastating tolls of outbreaks in Italy, Spain and Britain, it also has seen an extraordinary increase in deaths, mortality data show.
By late March, nearly every country in Europe had closed schools and businesses, restricted travel and ordered citizens to stay home. But one country stood out for its decision to stay open: Sweden.
The country’s moderated response to the coronavirus outbreak has drawn praise from some American politicians, who see Sweden as a possible model for the United States as it begins to reopen. “We need to observe with an open mind what went on in Sweden, where the kids kept going to school,” Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a Republican, said at a hearing on Tuesday.
But while Sweden has avoided the devastating tolls of outbreaks in Italy, Spain and Britain, it also has seen an extraordinary increase in deaths, mortality data show.
Across Sweden, almost 30 percent more people died during the epidemic than is normal during this time of year, an increase similar to that of the United States and far higher than the small increases seen in its neighboring countries. While Sweden is the largest country in Scandinavia, all have strong public health care systems and low health inequality across the population.
“It’s not a very flattering comparison for Sweden, which has such a great public health system,” said Andrew Noymer, a demographer at the University of California at Irvine. “There’s no reason Sweden should be doing worse than Norway, Denmark and Finland.”
COUNTRY PCT ABOVE NORMAL
EXCESS DEATHS TIME PERIOD
United Kingdom
+67% 53,300 Mar. 14 - May 1
Spain
+60% 31,500 Mar. 16 - May 3
Belgium
+50% 5,300 Mar. 16 - Apr. 19
Netherlands
+50% 8,700 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Italy
+49% 24,600 March
France
+44% 28,500 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Sweden
+27% 3,300 Mar. 16 - May 3
Switzerland
+24% 2,000 Mar. 16 - May 3
Portugal
+15% 1,300 Mar. 16 - Apr. 12
Austria
+11% 1,000 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Germany
+6% 4,100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 12
Denmark
+5% 300 Mar. 16 - May 3
Norway
+0% <100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Finland
+0% <100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
[www.nytimes.com]
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
stickyfingers101
()
Date: May 18, 2020 19:32
Quote
MisterDDDD
Sweden Stayed Open. A Deadly Month Shows the Risks.
Sweden’s outbreak has been far deadlier than those of its neighbors, but it’s still better off than many countries that enforced strict lockdowns.
By late March, nearly every country in Europe had closed schools and businesses, restricted travel and ordered citizens to stay home. But one country stood out for its decision to stay open: Sweden.
The country’s moderated response to the coronavirus outbreak has drawn praise from some American politicians, who see Sweden as a possible model for the United States as it begins to reopen. “We need to observe with an open mind what went on in Sweden, where the kids kept going to school,” Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a Republican, said at a hearing on Tuesday.
But while Sweden has avoided the devastating tolls of outbreaks in Italy, Spain and Britain, it also has seen an extraordinary increase in deaths, mortality data show.
By late March, nearly every country in Europe had closed schools and businesses, restricted travel and ordered citizens to stay home. But one country stood out for its decision to stay open: Sweden.
The country’s moderated response to the coronavirus outbreak has drawn praise from some American politicians, who see Sweden as a possible model for the United States as it begins to reopen. “We need to observe with an open mind what went on in Sweden, where the kids kept going to school,” Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, a Republican, said at a hearing on Tuesday.
But while Sweden has avoided the devastating tolls of outbreaks in Italy, Spain and Britain, it also has seen an extraordinary increase in deaths, mortality data show.
Across Sweden, almost 30 percent more people died during the epidemic than is normal during this time of year, an increase similar to that of the United States and far higher than the small increases seen in its neighboring countries. While Sweden is the largest country in Scandinavia, all have strong public health care systems and low health inequality across the population.
“It’s not a very flattering comparison for Sweden, which has such a great public health system,” said Andrew Noymer, a demographer at the University of California at Irvine. “There’s no reason Sweden should be doing worse than Norway, Denmark and Finland.”
COUNTRY PCT ABOVE NORMAL
EXCESS DEATHS TIME PERIOD
United Kingdom
+67% 53,300 Mar. 14 - May 1
Spain
+60% 31,500 Mar. 16 - May 3
Belgium
+50% 5,300 Mar. 16 - Apr. 19
Netherlands
+50% 8,700 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Italy
+49% 24,600 March
France
+44% 28,500 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Sweden
+27% 3,300 Mar. 16 - May 3
Switzerland
+24% 2,000 Mar. 16 - May 3
Portugal
+15% 1,300 Mar. 16 - Apr. 12
Austria
+11% 1,000 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Germany
+6% 4,100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 12
Denmark
+5% 300 Mar. 16 - May 3
Norway
+0% <100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
Finland
+0% <100 Mar. 16 - Apr. 26
[www.nytimes.com]
Sweden’s outbreak has been far deadlier than those of its neighbors, but it’s still better off than many countries that enforced strict lockdowns.
I'd be interested to see what Sweden's obesity-rate is as compared to these other countries....
in fact, I'd be interested to see side-by-side death-rate/obesity rate stats.....
there's also the age-thing. If Sweden generally has a "younger" population than other places, that plays a factor....as does the overall health of elderly people and how many are in Care Facilities.
I don't know enough to speak intelligently, but I'd bet Sweden has a low obesity rate (esp. compared to the US/UK)....and, thus, healthier old people on the whole and, thus, fewer people in Elderly Care Facilities....
I'd also bet that in all of these categories, Sweden is comparable to its neighbors (BV...help me out) and, thus the importance of their lockdown decisions when compared to say, Norway.
They're not comparable to the US in any real way.
Demographics are the key to understanding all of this.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-18 19:36 by stickyfingers101.
This Thread has been closed