Civil liberty v civic responsibility

USA population 325,000,000
Australia population 25,000,000

Roughly a 13th the size of the US

Had the US taken and had a responsive and capable and timely response to Covid19 similar, perhaps not exactly, like Australia

Instead of 1,160,000,000 cases and 67000 deaths
Could it have been 89,000 cases and 5160 deaths?

Or had Australia opted for the US “model”

Instead of 6,800 cases and 93 deaths
Could it have been 88,400 cases and 1,210 deaths.

I know which I would prefer.

I am all for democracy and liberty, but sometimes FOR THE GREATER GOOD, you have to take a backward or sideways step to protect it.

We like the US are slowly lifting lockdowns. Slowly and methodically. I think still too quickly and I expect a spike here in both cases and deaths. But we’re nevertheless lowering the restrictions a bit.

We want our overall society to come through. Not individuals, not some States at others expense. Unfortunately for the US it seems to be “ME”.

AND PLEASE, I love the US and it’s people, some of my closest friends are Americans living in Nashville, I have been there many times, New York is the greatest place in earth, and it SICKENS me to see what’s happening there. SICKENS me.

But Americans should get a grip on this thing before they scream about “civil liberty”. It’s a bloody deadly pandemic.

Rod

Not sure about those blanket statements such as "Unfortunately for the US it seems to be “ME”, but some valid points above.
Many/probably most of us here are fighting for the greater cause and trying to work together to make things better, but there will always be some rotten apples.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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Hairball
Not sure about those blanket statements such as "Unfortunately for the US it seems to be “ME”, but some valid points above.

Point taken.

Rod

The US just reported its deadliest day for coronavirus patients as states reopen, according to WHO

KEY POINTS
*The U.S. saw 2,909 people die of Covid-19 in 24 hours, according to the data, which was collected as of 4 a.m. ET on Friday.
*That's the highest daily death toll in the U.S. yet based on a CNBC analysis of the WHO's daily Covid-19 situation reports.
*The country's deadliest day comes as state officials weigh reopening parts of the economy and easing stay-at-home orders.

The United States just had its deadliest day on record due to the coronavirus as states across the country begin to ease restrictions meant to curb the spread of the virus, according to data published by the World Health Organization.

The U.S. saw 2,909 people die of Covid-19 in 24 hours, according to the data, which was collected as of 4 a.m. ET on Friday. That's the highest daily Covid-19 death toll in the U.S. yet, based on a CNBC analysis of the WHO's daily Covid-19 situation reports.

[www.cnbc.com]

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DGA35

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CaptainCorella

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DGA35
I've been monitoring local numbers for BC and the rest of Canada as well as the US. BC has a population of 5.1 million. Like other areas, schools are closed, bars/clubs, hair salons and tattoo parlours are closed. Restaurants are take out or delivery only and grocery stores are open with social distancing being observed. Everyone is supposed to stay at home unless absolutely necessary.
As of today, we have had 2145 confirmed cases and 112 deaths.
I look at Georgia, with a population of just over 4 million. They have 27494 cases with 1167 deaths and Louisiana with a population of around 4.6 million. They have 28000 cases and 1862 deaths. I can't believe with smaller populations than BC, they have over 10 times the cases and 10 times the deaths. Hopefully things turn around for them.

The whole of Australia has a population of about 25m (BC=5.1m), similar lockdown rules - but harder, and we have had about 7,000 confirmed cases and just under 100 deaths. So, pro rata, better even than BC.

Yes Australia and especially New Zealand have done really well. One thing I'm wondering is that as the northern hemisphere enters our warmer summer months and people will be outdoors, you'll be entering your cooler winter months so I wonder if that might change things as far as numbers go? I look at Brazil and it's starting to get bad down there.
A friend of mine's daughter, who is in her early 20's, is in Australia. She decided not to come back to BC and stay in Australia. So far, so good!

The summer/winter thing is very valid.

If, as is generally assumed, the virus behaves like (eg) the Flu virus, then it can be expected to be less prevalent in the Summer and more in the Winter. That's why the Australian Govt has stressed the need for everyone to get their Flu vaccine as soon as possible before real winter sets in.

If indeed it moderates in the Northern Summer I really do hope that it does not then lead to a sense of false security which in turn could lead to an awful breakout next Northern Autumn.

Your BC/Australia point amused me. My daughter, husband and kid, are in BC and we're in Australia. She works in health management and has a fairly relevant PhD to the current events, knows about epidemiology (sp?) and has more than a gift for understanding numbers, and she's comfortable staying in BC. (Which has to be good news for you.)

Plus another shout out to New Zealand which has done really really well and not enough people realise that.

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Hey Captain Corella, your daughter and family in the Vancouver area? I know that a lot of Aussies work seasonally up in Whistler/Blackcomb ski resort, north of Vancouver.

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CaptainCorella

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DGA35

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CaptainCorella

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DGA35
I've been monitoring local numbers for BC and the rest of Canada as well as the US. BC has a population of 5.1 million. Like other areas, schools are closed, bars/clubs, hair salons and tattoo parlours are closed. Restaurants are take out or delivery only and grocery stores are open with social distancing being observed. Everyone is supposed to stay at home unless absolutely necessary.
As of today, we have had 2145 confirmed cases and 112 deaths.
I look at Georgia, with a population of just over 4 million. They have 27494 cases with 1167 deaths and Louisiana with a population of around 4.6 million. They have 28000 cases and 1862 deaths. I can't believe with smaller populations than BC, they have over 10 times the cases and 10 times the deaths. Hopefully things turn around for them.

The whole of Australia has a population of about 25m (BC=5.1m), similar lockdown rules - but harder, and we have had about 7,000 confirmed cases and just under 100 deaths. So, pro rata, better even than BC.

Yes Australia and especially New Zealand have done really well. One thing I'm wondering is that as the northern hemisphere enters our warmer summer months and people will be outdoors, you'll be entering your cooler winter months so I wonder if that might change things as far as numbers go? I look at Brazil and it's starting to get bad down there.
A friend of mine's daughter, who is in her early 20's, is in Australia. She decided not to come back to BC and stay in Australia. So far, so good!

The summer/winter thing is very valid.

If, as is generally assumed, the virus behaves like (eg) the Flu virus, then it can be expected to be less prevalent in the Summer and more in the Winter. That's why the Australian Govt has stressed the need for everyone to get their Flu vaccine as soon as possible before real winter sets in.

If indeed it moderates in the Northern Summer I really do hope that it does not then lead to a sense of false security which in turn could lead to an awful breakout next Northern Autumn.

Your BC/Australia point amused me. My daughter, husband and kid, are in BC and we're in Australia. She works in health management and has a fairly relevant PhD to the current events, knows about epidemiology (sp?) and has more than a gift for understanding numbers, and she's comfortable staying in BC. (Which has to be good news for you.)

Plus another shout out to New Zealand which has done really really well and not enough people realise that.

Yep I acknowledge the seasonal factor may still have a say down under. A reason I say I expect a spike.

But in our country’s management of this thing our Federal Govt (a Blue govt by US stds ) formed a National Cabinet with all State leaders on board (both blue and red state leaders), they put their individual state concerns aside and have worked in a fully National capacity to find, solve as many of our issues as possible. Over half our unfortunate deaths are as a result of 2 cruise ship outbreaks from returning passengers and those in some of our aged care facilities. Our isolation, lock downs worked in our favour no doubt. But we are taking a truly National response to it. Our people understand this. We haven’t worked against each other’s red/blue leanings. We’ve leaned on and into each other.

Rod



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-03 08:45 by bitusa2012.

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DGA35
Hey Captain Corella, your daughter and family in the Vancouver area? I know that a lot of Aussies work seasonally up in Whistler/Blackcomb ski resort, north of Vancouver.

Vancouver, yes. They went years ago each on a working tourist visa and ended up with good jobs in their professions, so have got Residency. Her profession has been mentioned, and he works in the movie business.

But they do like the winter sports!

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Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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bitusa2012

Yep I acknowledge the seasonal factor may still have a say down under. A reason I say I expect a spike.

But in our country’s management of this thing our Federal Govt (a Blue govt by US stds ) formed a National Cabinet with all State leaders on board (both blue and red state leaders), they put their individual state concerns aside and have worked in a fully National capacity to find, solve as many of our issues as possible. Over half our unfortunate deaths are as a result of 2 cruise ship outbreaks from returning passengers and those in some of our aged care facilities. Our isolation, lock downs worked in our favour no doubt. But we are taking a truly National response to it. Our people understand this. We haven’t worked against each other’s red/blue leanings. We’ve leaned on and into each other.

If it were truly a "National Cabinet" then its leader would have brought on board, even as a token, a member of the Federal Opposition. That's what has happened since time immemorial in crises like this.

It's very true to say that the firmer policies have been led by the States, one "red" and one "blue" (Dan & Gladys), who have overruled the insipid National leadership and showed some leadership where there wasn't any really.

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bitusa2012
Our people understand this. We haven’t worked against each other’s red/blue leanings.

Go tell that to Dan Tehan. (Who has now withdrawn this mornings outburst).

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Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

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MisterDDDD
The US just reported its deadliest day for coronavirus patients as states reopen, according to WHO

KEY POINTS
*The U.S. saw 2,909 people die of Covid-19 in 24 hours, according to the data, which was collected as of 4 a.m. ET on Friday.
*That's the highest daily death toll in the U.S. yet based on a CNBC analysis of the WHO's daily Covid-19 situation reports.
*The country's deadliest day comes as state officials weigh reopening parts of the economy and easing stay-at-home orders.

The United States just had its deadliest day on record due to the coronavirus as states across the country begin to ease restrictions meant to curb the spread of the virus, according to data published by the World Health Organization.

The U.S. saw 2,909 people die of Covid-19 in 24 hours, according to the data, which was collected as of 4 a.m. ET on Friday. That's the highest daily Covid-19 death toll in the U.S. yet, based on a CNBC analysis of the WHO's daily Covid-19 situation reports.

[www.cnbc.com]

This doesn’t agree with Worldmeters. Plus total deaths are 55337 which also doesn’t match. I will rely on a worldmeters unless convinced otherwise.(May 2nd, 1691/67444)

Don't know if posted before:

Coronavirus: Brian May says the shortage of PPE is 'horrendous'

Today May 3 is the World Press Freedom Day, as declared by the UN General Assembly.

A free press is essential in a democracy. Fake news and politically biased news are unfortunately a big challenge for the democracy, especially in these corona virus days.

The 2020 World Press Freedom Index by Reporters Without Borders (RSF)



Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-03 14:52 by bv.

You wouldn't believe we were in that favorable position (Scandinavia) if you listened to the debate here. But I guess it's even worse in other countries. The big thing here is the "war" between
mainstream media and alternative media. The latter internet based. The first too but not solely. They both sneer at each other. But I guess this "fake news" thing isn't as prominent here.
Seems to be a US thing.

Corona virus statistics - how to read the data

We are now seven or so weeks into lockdown. Many do still read, and try to understand, the daily numbers of cases. That does not make any sense.

First of all you need to know your sources. Worldometer, Johns Hopkins and others have slightly different daily sampling hours. Secondly, week-end numbers does not really arrive until Tuesday the following week. This does not mean that more people die on a Tuesday, and less people die on Sunday and Monday. It simply means that data arrive 1-2 days late after the Saturday/Sunday time frame. Some times, in fact, data are one week old, which is clearly seen in the way data are seen in Sweden, where they actually visualize new data adding up on actual dates, up to a week or so backtracked.

The only way to look into these numbers is on a 3-days or 7-days rolling average value, or even better, weekly numbers only, on a fixed day, like Monday or Wednesday every week. Then you get above the daily variations in reporting, and you look at significant week-by-week variations.

As an example, take a look at the below graph, which is the Worldometer fatalities per day for USA.

It seems like there was a peak level on Tuesday April 21, but we will still need another 1-2 weeks of data in order to state what is the peak and plateau, and when there is a significant decrease over time.



Bjornulf

Seems to me New York is over-represented in the US statistics. Almost as much as Stockholm is in Sweden. Understandably so, I guess.

About free press and fake news:

Anyone may be a reporter online these days. Anyone may report on a man with two heads seen walking in the street, or Elvis seen walking and alive on the Hollywood strip last week. Still, few would pay to read such nonsense.

I never read news on social media, because they are all political and biased. I don't trust Facebook, Twitter or Google. They are all paid by the click. I read all the news with paid subscriptions. They have real professional journalists.

Luckily we have a serious and hard working press in the Nordic region. By reading most sites and papers, it is easy to get the whole truth, which is essential in these fake news days.

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-03 15:32 by bv.

Okay, BV. Fair enough. I take part of both mainstream media and alternative media. And make my own decision about what is what. Mainstream media has the upper hand though. Of course. The alternative news doesn't have their resources. Most of social media is about gossip and social boosting though. I would rather read blogs. Like this one. And from a pure intellectual standpoint I believe this division between free (good) and fake (bad) press is a false dichotomy. Because every newspaper (or other news agencies) is, more or less, biased in one direction or another. (A clue: Look who the owner is and where the money is coming from). If you're aware of that I found no problem steering straight in the news landscape.

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Stoneage
Seems to me New York is over-represented in the US statistics. Almost as much as Stockholm is in Sweden. Understandably so, I guess.

Over-represented? What does that suppose to mean? The last time I checked New York belongs to USA and Stockhom to Sweden. That of those places being most crowded and having initially most linked internationally to hot spots surely affects to their numbers. We here in Finland have the same thing with Helsinki. That's why we here blocked the whole Helsinki area from the rest of country for some time in order not let the virus spread so easily (seemingly worked to some degree). But we still think that Helsinki is a part of country and what happens there is our common concern, especially if we think the pandema in terms of Finnish statistics (as, for example, our goverment needs to think of). I am sure in every country there are places that are more hot spots than others. Or is there a country in where the virus is spread 'democratically'?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-03 16:30 by Doxa.

Sure, Doxa. What I mean is that those two cities have more cases and deaths relative to their size of the population. More than half of the deaths in Sweden has occurred in Stockholm for instance.
Which is an over-representation since Stockholm doesn't make up a half of the Swedish population.

SARSCOV2 ie COVID-19 is a new virus for humans. It's looking more like climate has no influence on it. The myth that warm/hot weather will make it go away is just that. Otherwise warm areas within 30° of the equator would be fine already. There's no reason to expect this corona virus to behave like other corona viruses.


The 2003 SARS virus didn't go away because of warm weather, it went away because of people taking care to be mindful and stay in, stay away.


The 2020 SARS virus will continue to spread because people, in the US anyway, like the idiots in Michigan and now Georgia and Louisiana, are more concerned about liberty than living even though the stay at home orders are constitutionally protected.

Which is quite entertaining, because all the flag wavers... don't they love the constitution?

It's quite astounding, really, that in 2020 instead of having life more like the Jetsons it's really that opinion is more important than fact. Opinions are the new facts.

Opinions can get people killed.


Opinions will get people killed.

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bv
Today May 3 is the World Press Freedom Day, as declared by the UN General Assembly.

A free press is essential in a democracy. Fake news and politically biased news are unfortunately a big challenge for the democracy, especially in these corona virus days.

The 2020 World Press Freedom Index by Reporters Without Borders (RSF)

probably the most disappointing thing about this map (apart from the obvious point that it is mostly red and black) is the amount of yellow that really should be white, the red and black is bad, but to be expected, but all the yellow is unforgivable in what we think of as the free world!

The unemployment thing... I've filed, didn't know I was supposed to file every week. Once I found that out, couldn't log on... had to enter the same info again one time, another time I couldn't do anything, yesterday there was ZERO information; if I ever do get to... what's the term, claim? it I probably won't see any money until late May at this point.

This is sort of political, so I'll post it here.
I appreciate that in the new song, 'Ghost Town', Mick the narrator identifies with the people who are locked down. He's still a young person at heart.
In that interview recently, he also identifies with the people who have lost jobs and income.
Good on you, Mick.

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-03 18:55 by Stoneage.

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GasLightStreet
The unemployment thing... I've filed, didn't know I was supposed to file every week. Once I found that out, couldn't log on... had to enter the same info again one time, another time I couldn't do anything, yesterday there was ZERO information; if I ever do get to... what's the term, claim? it I probably won't see any money until late May at this point.

My understanding is that your filing will be retroactive and cover the weeks of unemployment. In addition, there will be a 200-600 dollar bump in the benefit through July 31 only.

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GasLightStreet
It's quite astounding, really, that in 2020 instead of having life more like the Jetsons it's really that opinion is more important than fact. Opinions are the new facts.

Opinions can get people killed.


Opinions will get people killed.

I heard you loud and clear on all of this.

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Stoneage
Sure, Doxa. What I mean is that those two cities have more cases and deaths relative to their size of the population. More than half of the deaths in Sweden has occurred in Stockholm for instance.
Which is an over-representation since Stockholm doesn't make up a half of the Swedish population.

Yep....this is another example of how we are getting overwhelmed w/ statistics and not receiving proper demographic information with which to process it accurately.

NYC is 3% of the US population...but, has 25% of the deaths.

And, I've said this several times.....

25% of US deaths are in Nursing Homes ALONE....some states it is 50%

it is also 50% in Europe, for the record.

statistics without demographic information applied sweepingly to a larger population is simply bad science.

Doxa correctly stated that the virus is not spreading "democratically"...which is precisely why demographic information is so vital to our understanding of the disease as we make decisions moving forward.

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steffialicia

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GasLightStreet
It's quite astounding, really, that in 2020 instead of having life more like the Jetsons it's really that opinion is more important than fact. Opinions are the new facts.

Opinions can get people killed.


Opinions will get people killed.

I heard you loud and clear on all of this.

It's sad.

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GasLightStreet
The unemployment thing... I've filed, didn't know I was supposed to file every week. Once I found that out, couldn't log on... had to enter the same info again one time, another time I couldn't do anything, yesterday there was ZERO information; if I ever do get to... what's the term, claim? it I probably won't see any money until late May at this point.

Not sure where you are but these two message boards have some info (and many sad stories):

[www.reddit.com]

[www.city-data.com]