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Kerryann

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Aquamarine

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SomeTorontoGirl
In a show of leadership seldom demonstrated, Jacinda Ardern, PM of New Zealand responded to concerns expressed by children by signing a proclamation declaring the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy to be essential workers. Full props to her for realizing that kids need this kind of assurance or normalcy during a crisis, and not being afraid to sweat the small stuff to deliver that assurance. (Oh, they’re also flattening the curve like crazy... this is in addition to the big stuff, not instead of it...)

[www.washingtonpost.com]

She is a real leader--I've admired her ever since seeing her handling of the mosque killings.

Yes our NZ prime minister certainly is very good at self promotion. There were calls to shut our border weeks before she did but she was hell bent on having a one year memorial for the mosque shooting with all the bigwigs from the world media in attendance first. She was even promoting crowd gatherings and hand shaking. In the end she was forced to cancel the commemoration one day before it was due to take place due to pressure from the people to ban large gatherings and shut the border, but still managed some media coverage of her dressed in a headscarve. Being an Island if we had acted when we should have we likely wouldn't be in lockdown now with the economic carnage it is causing. Vast majority of our cases came from travellers. So yea, great prime minister whos main ambition is a seat on the UN and will do anything to get there. We need more substance than hugs and fairytales.

Why would the most powerful woman in the Southern hemisphere want a seat at the UN?
Isnt she about 20 years too young?
Would she be able to take her baby to meetings?

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wonderboy
I don't think I've commented on this in about a month. But I've been relieved that the doomsday predictions have not come true.

- The wave is going to be past its peak in a few weeks. By May, we need to go back to our regular lives.

I don't think anyone have been talking about doomsday. Still, this is the worst worldwide economical and medical crisis since World War II. And it will last for may be 1-2 years. The predictions of some 60,000 - 80,000 deaths in USA are under the assumption that the lockdown is permanent until August, and then furter on, under control, until there is a vaccine. Just listen to Anthony Fauci, he is an expert on the subject.

White House health advisor Fauci says we may never get back to ‘normal’ after coronavirus pandemic (CNBC - UPDATED TUE, APR 7, 2020)

....
Even when a vaccine is developed, he said things may never return to what was considered normal before the virus, because it will always be a looming threat in society. He previously said that the virus will likely come back every year, especially without a vaccine to prevent future outbreaks. However, he said Monday that he’s hoping scientists will develop therapeutic drugs and a workable vaccine in the meantime that will help contain the virus better than it is today.
....

WSJ Survey: Coronavirus to Cause Deep U.S. Contraction, 13% Unemployment (Wall Street Journal - April 8, 2020)

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-08 20:28 by bv.

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bv

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wonderboy
I don't think I've commented on this in about a month. But I've been relieved that the doomsday predictions have not come true.

- The wave is going to be past its peak in a few weeks. By May, we need to go back to our regular lives.

I don't think anyone have been talking about doomsday. Still, this is the worst worldwide economical and medical crisis since World War II. And it will last for may be 1-2 years. The predictions of some 60,000 - 80,000 deaths in USA are under the assumption that the lockdown is permanent until August, and then furter on, under control, until there is a vaccine. Just listen to Anthony Fauci, he is an expert on the subject.

White House health advisor Fauci says we may never get back to ‘normal’ after coronavirus pandemic (CNBC - UPDATED TUE, APR 7, 2020)

....
Even when a vaccine is developed, he said things may never return to what was considered normal before the virus, because it will always be a looming threat in society. He previously said that the virus will likely come back every year, especially without a vaccine to prevent future outbreaks. However, he said Monday that he’s hoping scientists will develop therapeutic drugs and a workable vaccine in the meantime that will help contain the virus better than it is today.
....

WSJ Survey: Coronavirus to Cause Deep U.S. Contraction, 13% Unemployment (Wall Street Journal - April 8, 2020)

1 positive thing to consider is hopefully the world will be better prepared when the next 1 comes. the money changers & indeed the public didn't take the threat seriously because nothing on this scale had happened in 100 years. i saw a video of Bush Jr talking about the need to be prepared for a pandemic from 2005. I was never a big fan of his but he was right on this & was largely ignored. I do think his heart was in the right place though. I won't comment on how this compares to the current leadership. I also think that if it wasn't already this has become Bill Gates' life's work. Since he stepped down from Microsoft, all of his considerable energy & resources have been devoted to world health matters. I know about this because the Gates Foundation has been leading the effort to eradicate immune system diseases such as RA & lupus. They have spent much money on the effort. I keep up with this as it affects me directly. Let us hope that the world listens to him & follow his lead.

BV, why did you delete my response to Rocknroll1969's post?

On page 86 of this thread you posted "There is a big difference in facts based posts and personal political opinions. I think it is important for everyone to know what their leaders have done in the past. I am NOT going to accept a discussion about republicans vs democrats in USA, and I am NOT going to accept any discussions on who is better or who is worse in politics, but there are some facts that may not be disputed, like these, all reports in leading news:" Then you posted several "facts" (some were "news" articles by biased journalists) all which paint a negative picture of the current US administration. Perhaps I missed something, but I have seen many posts by you that are clearly negative regarding the current US administration and zero posts with positive statements.

My response to Rocknroll1969's post (which linked to a NYT article in a way suggesting the US administration ignored a warning from a member of the administration) is re-posted below:

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Rocknroll1969
This is an interesting news story.

[www.nytimes.com]

And Trump acted within two days to restrict travel into the US by non-citizens who had been in China within the past two weeks. That was a strong and unprecedented action. Also any returning citizens who had been in the Hubei province were subject to mandatory quarantine; and all U.S. citizens returning from mainland China outside Hubei Province were ordered to undergo health screenings and up to 14 days of monitored self-quarantine."

For that he was criticized by some Democrats, including his presumptive opponent for the next Presidential election. Biden, reacting that same day in Iowa said "This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia – hysterical xenophobia – and fearmongering to lead the way instead of science.""

Why is it ok for you and others to make posts that are negative regarding the US administration, but not ok for someone to respond with FACTS?? Everything in my response is factual. I did not write any opinion regarding whether the administration or Biden was better. The Biden quote, which relates to the administrations Jan 31st China travel restrictions announcement, comes from Factcheck.org, which is mostly critical of the US administration: [www.factcheck.org]

So regarding the US administration, is it only ok to post negative facts and links to negative articles (which usually contain opinion); and not ok for someone to respond with associated facts that are favorable to what the administration does?

Facts are facts. They are neither negative nor positive. They're facts.

But facts can be viewed either positively or negatively.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

About banning flights from China:

Iran banned flights from China very early on, just like USA and many others. Then people used indirect flights. So the only way to manage the virus, as clearly stated from WHO ever since their messaging mid January, was TEST TEST TEST.

I don't see why banning flights from China is said to be so important in fighting the virus. We all know the virus came from China via all sorts of other countries, Chinese on holidays, business people finding indirect flights and so on.

The real problem is those leaders who thought that banning flights from China, or EU, or whatever, was all they needed to do, then they did little or nothing else until their countries were filled up with corona virus cases by March. That is the real problem.

As for the Iran business man, who was "patient zero" in Iran, now sort of in change of thousands dead in Iran, this is a reference:

Iran: 43 infected with coronavirus; patient zero identified (middleeastmonitor - February 23, 2020)

The virus came from China to Qom city Iran. A Merchant from Qom who died of the virus used to regularly travel to China … Flights were suspended between the two countries but he used indirect flights.

Bjornulf



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-08 22:14 by bv.

So many layers to this onion, the hope is the next time everyone is more prepared. That will require a lot of good faith and honesty

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bv
About banning flights from China:

Iran banned flights from China very early on, just like USA and many others. Then people used indirect flights. So the only way to manage the virus, as clearly stated from WHO ever since their messaging mid January, was TEST TEST TEST.

I don't see why banning flights from China is said to be so important in fighting the virus. We all know the virus came from China via all sorts of other countries, Chinese on holidays, business people finding indirect flights and so on.

The real problem is those leaders who thought that banning flights from China, or EU, or whatever, was all they needed to do, then they did little or nothing else until their countries were filled up with corona virus cases by March. That is the real problem.

As for the Iran business man, who was "patient zero" in Iran, now sort of in change of thousands dead in Iran, this is a reference:

Iran: 43 infected with coronavirus; patient zero identified (middleeastmonitor - February 23, 2020)

The virus came from China to Qom city Iran. A Merchant from Qom who died of the virus used to regularly travel to China … Flights were suspended between the two countries but he used indirect flights.

I agree w/ some of your points, but....I'm confused.

Banning flights/travel are extremely important....they are an essential part of the "stay in place" strategy meant to "flatten the curve"

Sure, some people don't listen and some people find ways around it...but, the point is to "flatten the curve"....stopping as much travel as possible accomplishes exactly that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but China didn't start to control the virus until they locked-down travel and movement.

I agree that testing is critical (but there is a shortage of tests, for one)....and I agree that many leaders thought Travel Bans was ALL they needed to do and that was a major mistake...

but, the WHO saying it travel bans had "little public health effect" was (and is) simply inaccurate....

if banning travel/flights isn't "so important," why am I being told to stay home?

I'll add that the WHO is also inaccurate w/ their position on masks....

if masks aren't necessary for "healthy people"...why am I being told to cover my sneeze/cough?

The WHO should own up to its inaccurate statements and mistakes just as much as world leaders who failed to take action quickly enough.....

and everybody should STOP telling people masks are "unnecessary for healthy people" when we've known for months that people can be asymptomatic carriers and spreaders....in other words, we don't know the "sick" from the "healthy"...

...so stay home....if you go out, wear a mask.

and wash ya hands (which is arguably the most important thing)

Banning flights from one country makes no sense. People who travel just find ways around, via other transit countries. Banning flights from all countries however, made a big difference, when most of the countries started doing that in March.

Bjornulf

Regarding masks: Many times on the television today, the news channels showed video from Wuhan and all of the people coming outside after 76 days of lockdown. I don’t recall seeing a single person without a mask. I think everyone had a mask!

CNN said the United States is 4 percent of the worlds population. The United States has 28 percent of the Coronavirus cases. What does that say? I have been waiting for a Strong federal government response similar to what most European countries are doing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-08 23:19 by Rocknroll1969.

This is not a fair or balanced discussion when we all ar want the best for all. One of my post in response was manipulated to change the facts of my viewpoint.


Again since my post was altered I have to remind all that i have been attacked for no reason at all over and over again and this has happened for the past 20 years regardless what I say. I have no political interest in this effort to save people's lives!!! That is not political!!!!


I treat others with respect and simply expect the same in return.

Lots of talk about a vaccine. Hope people realise that there is a possibility that they may not be able to produce a vaccine for this virus and even if they do there is still the question of how effective it will be - we will know further down the track.

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rbp
Lots of talk about a vaccine. Hope people realise that there is a possibility that they may not be able to produce a vaccine for this virus and even if they do there is still the question of how effective it will be - we will know further down the track.

This is a good point.
I have the flu vaccine every winter but am aware that it does not come with a 100% guarantee. Will it be the same if/when a Corona vaccine is found?

Some facts regarding the WHO:

They tweeted on Jan 14: "
Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China"

From the WHO website: 22 January 2020

WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.

And: 22- 23 January 2020

The WHO Director- General convened an Emergency Committee (EC) under the International Health Regulations (IHR 2005) to assess whether the outbreak constituted a public health emergency of international concern. The independent members from around the world could not reach a consensus based on the evidence available at the time. They asked to be reconvened within 10 days after receiving more information.

And: 28 January 2020

A senior WHO delegation led by the Director-General travelled to Beijing to meet China’s leadership, learn more about China’s response, and to offer any technical assistance.

While in Beijing, Dr. Tedros agreed with Chinese government leaders that an international team of leading scientists would travel to China on a mission to better understand the context, the overall response, and exchange information and experience.

Then: The outbreak was declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern on 30 January 2020.

Note: Except for the tweet, everything above is directly from the WHO website.

On January 31st, Trump announced the China travel restrictions and quarantine/testing requirements for citizens permitted to return. Those restrictions dealt with indirect travel, since they applied to anyone who had been in China within fourteen days of arrival into the US.

Now for some opinion: At the time of the WHO warning, Jan 30, it was too late, the virus had already spread internationally, although the extent was poorly understood then. I don't see anything alarming, from the WHO, regarding international concerns, until Jan 30.

I agree with your opinion regarding the importance of testing. In that regard the US was let down by the existing responsible government organization, the CDC, which decided to develop it's own tests, which were initially faulty and needed to be redone; plus the tests involved a complex centralized process that severely limited capacity and often took days to complete results. The US was initially let down, not by the top administrative actions, but by the CDC. Then the administration acted to involve private industry, which is responding to the testing problems, but not fast enough given the initial inability to test and isolate those infected traveling to the US. That plus, at that time, there was no warning from China, or the WHO, that those infected could pass the virus before they had any symptoms. Remember, the Diamond Princess initial COVID 19 case wasn't diagnosed until February 4.

In my opinion, the WHO did a poor job regarding COVID 19; partly because China (at least their local authorities) ignored and covered up warnings by local medical personnel.

Yes, limited ability to test remains an issue, We need massive testing capacity along with tests that provide fast correct results. That is being developed through many means in the US, and I assume other countries too.

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Rocknroll1969
CNN said the United States is 4 percent of the worlds population. The United States has 28 percent of the Coronavirus cases. What does that say? I have been waiting for a Strong federal government response similar to what most European countries are doing.

Do you really think the US has 28 percent of the worlds COVID 19 cases?? Maybe your numbers say the US is doing more/better testing than much of the world and is more open regarding reporting results.

Regarding European countries response, if you look closer, you will see that their actions vary greatly from country to country. The US is composed of 50 different states, each with their own government, medical systems and differing circumstances. So the 50 states have much autonomy to set policies best for their situation. Would you rather have all control and all policies set by the Federal government? If you think Europe is responding better, than you should look closer at how much difficulty the EU is having trying to come together on anything regarding dealing with COVID 19 problems. I don't think the EU has agreed on any policy ACTIONS (except talk) so far. It's been up to each country to respond, although some countries are helping others.

I just got my N95 mask. Things are really scary here in NYC. More deaths in the last 24 hours, almost 800 souls, then the previous day. They say half of all NYers will get the virus. I need to get out but I'm not sure where to go for a month or two to chill. I can't even get the food I want. This is the end.

I am not sure it helps to compare Europe with the USA.
Europe is composed of 50 autonomous sovereign territories plus 6 smaller countries with 'limited recognition' and other dependencies eg Isle Of Man.
The USA has 50 states (now that is a coincidence) who 'report (?) to The President of the USA.
Some of the European countries are members of the EC: 27 currently plus the UK now in transition before exit. Despite what some people might say, the EC is not a United states of Europe. Each country has it's own tax regimes, foreign policy for example.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-09 00:33 by jlowe.

The US is counting COVID 19 deaths, by counting anyone who tested, or is presumed, positive who dies. So those who are very old and/or have serious other conditions will be counted as COVID 19 deaths, if they tested or were were presumed to be positive for the virus. That will make US deaths look worse on a worldwide scale, but it is indicative of the seriousness of COVID 19.

Does anyone believe the US already has more than three times the deaths from COVID 19 as China??? That's what the numbers show! The WHO numbers! What does that say about the veracity of the WHO's numbers?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-09 00:39 by IGTBA.

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Chris Fountain
This is not a fair or balanced discussion when we all ar want the best for all. One of my post in response was manipulated to change the facts of my viewpoint.


Again since my post was altered I have to remind all that i have been attacked for no reason at all over and over again and this has happened for the past 20 years regardless what I say. I have no political interest in this effort to save people's lives!!! That is not political!!!!


I treat others with respect and simply expect the same in return.

Well as long as you keep posting about WHO being corrupt, which is surely a political agenda you want to promote, then I will delete your posts. Feel free to post about the virus, but I don't want to have political statements here.

Bjornulf

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IGTBA

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Rocknroll1969
CNN said the United States is 4 percent of the worlds population. The United States has 28 percent of the Coronavirus cases. What does that say? I have been waiting for a Strong federal government response similar to what most European countries are doing.

Do you really think the US has 28 percent of the worlds COVID 19 cases?? Maybe your numbers say the US is doing more/better testing than much of the world and is more open regarding reporting results.

Regarding European countries response, if you look closer, you will see that their actions vary greatly from country to country. The US is composed of 50 different states, each with their own government, medical systems and differing circumstances. So the 50 states have much autonomy to set policies best for their situation. Would you rather have all control and all policies set by the Federal government? If you think Europe is responding better, than you should look closer at how much difficulty the EU is having trying to come together on anything regarding dealing with COVID 19 problems. I don't think the EU has agreed on any policy ACTIONS (except talk) so far. It's been up to each country to respond, although some countries are helping others.

Yes the Federal government should have acted strongly. There were people on Florida beaches last week. It hit Europe about 2 weeks before it hit the US hard. What did the US do during that time frame to prepare?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-09 00:54 by Rocknroll1969.

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jlowe

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rbp
Lots of talk about a vaccine. Hope people realise that there is a possibility that they may not be able to produce a vaccine for this virus and even if they do there is still the question of how effective it will be - we will know further down the track.

This is a good point.
I have the flu vaccine every winter but am aware that it does not come with a 100% guarantee. Will it be the same if/when a Corona vaccine is found?

The flu vaccine is lasting for half a year. That is why you take it late fall, then it will protect you from a number of the most common flu's around, may be at 70%, because there may be new flu mutations. Then every year the flu's mutate and change, so it is not 100% protection.

Flu's are around every year in some form and variation, but this new corona virus is completely new, there is no vaccine. That is why it is so dangerous. Also, it is dangerous because it might kill around 1% of the population.

This is why the world is now at shutdown. USA do not want to loose 1% of the 330 mill population - that is 3 million people. If the virus spread without control, 99% or so of the population will survive and be immune, probably, but 1% - that is still a big number, will die. Meanwhile, there will be hell, because the health system will try to save people, with far to few ventilators, far to few medical people, far to few beds and so on.

I wish people could take the virus seriously. As long as leaders say this will just blow over, many people do still think it will be ok by summer, and the Stones will tour in July.

Wrong. By July there will be many many fatalities, and people will understand, but probably very very late.

Luckily most world leaders do now take action with shutdown, but it need to be shut down until there is a vaccine. There is no other miracle cure, even if some say they can do it by ebola or malaria drugs. Ask any doctor. It's just false information. Terrible to do so when the world is in a crisis. Sure we do need hope, but we can't build the future on false hope.

Bjornulf

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bv

Luckily most world leaders do now take action with shutdown, but it need to be shut down until there is a vaccine. ...

I agree COVID 19 is a very serious worldwide disease; and that returning to past normal will likely be impractical until there is an effective vaccine or cure. However, I think it would be worse to have things shutdown for a year (more or less), to the extent things are currently shutdown in many US states and countries in Europe. That would result in a depression worse than the one in the 1930s; and a prolonged major change in behavior like nothing we can even relate to. The human toll from such an economic collapse and unpredictable human reaction to such prolonged control/confinement would arguably be much worse for humanity than losing 1-2 percent to death/disability.

I'm not suggesting it's best to just stop the shutdown/control and let the virus run its course. But I believe it would be best to begin steps to open the economy; and start that process within a month, even though there will still be limits on the amount of personal protective equipment, medicines, and testing.

Trump says a lot of unpolitical things, exaggerates all the time, and picks too many fights. He is not a politician. But I agree with his position that "the cure should not be worse than the disease"; meaning - the man made human toll from the shutdown should not cause worse problems than COVID 19 itself. I think some European countries (including Norway?) are taking or planning such steps to ease the shutdowns, correct?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-09 01:47 by IGTBA.

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IGTBA

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bv

Luckily most world leaders do now take action with shutdown, but it need to be shut down until there is a vaccine. ...

I agree COVID 19 is a very serious worldwide disease; and that returning to past normal will likely be impractical until there is an effective vaccine or cure. However, I think it would be worse to have things shutdown for a year (more or less), to the extent things are currently shutdown in many US states and countries in Europe. That would result in a depression worse than the one in the 1930s; and a prolonged major change in behavior like nothing we can even relate to. The human toll from such an economic collapse and unpredictable human reaction to such prolonged control/confinement would arguably be much worse for humanity than losing 1-2 percent to death/disability.

I'm not suggesting it's best to just stop the shutdown/control and let the virus run its course. But I believe it would be best to begin steps to open the economy; and start that process within a month, even though there will still be limits on the amount of personal protective equipment, medicines, and testing.

Trump says a lot of unpolitical things, exaggerates all the time, and picks too many fights. He is not a politician. But I agree with his position that "the cure should not be worse than the disease"; meaning - the man made human toll from the shutdown should not cause worse problems than COVID 19 itself. I think some European countries (including Norway?) are taking or planning such steps to ease the shutdowns, correct?

Dude pick your battles, you're never going to convince an international community of music lovers Trump knows what he's doing. Take that up with a news site. I probably agree with 90% of what you say, but it's the wrong forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-04-09 02:42 by kovach.

It's totally ridiculous that the WHO, other health authorities, and the mainstream media are still not advising healthy people to wear N95 masks or better to protect themselves from sick people when they go out. They only talk about wearing a surgical-type mask so that you can protect others in case you are sick. It's totally counter-intuitive and unacceptable. We live in the Information Age and it's not easy to get the proper information. What does that say about us?

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Rocknroll1969
CNN said the United States is 4 percent of the worlds population. The United States has 28 percent of the Coronavirus cases. What does that say? I have been waiting for a Strong federal government response similar to what most European countries are doing.

I am totally baffled by your statement. Again, we live in the Information Age and at least with respect to this subject it's easy to find relevant information.

I just heard on NBC News (which has been continuously streaming on YouTube) that 2000 New York police officers are off sick with the virus. Presumably these were healthy officers that were working outside among the public without any masks to protect themselves from the virus-carrying atomized water droplets in the air. It's crazy, WEAR A MASK to PROTECT YOURSELF.

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MileHigh

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Rocknroll1969
CNN said the United States is 4 percent of the worlds population. The United States has 28 percent of the Coronavirus cases. What does that say? I have been waiting for a Strong federal government response similar to what most European countries are doing.

I am totally baffled by your statement. Again, we live in the Information Age and at least with respect to this subject it's easy to find relevant information.

The US Military knew what was happening in China back in December. Trump was advised and did nothing. That’s what I call baffling.

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MileHigh
I just heard on NBC News (which has been continuously streaming on YouTube) that 2000 New York police officers are off sick with the virus. Presumably these were healthy officers that were working outside among the public without any masks to protect themselves from the virus-carrying atomized water droplets in the air. It's crazy, WEAR A MASK to PROTECT YOURSELF.

A large amount of EMTs in NYC have also contracted the virus.