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georgie48
... the 2017/2018 influenza killed more than 60.000 in the USA alone, and in my country 9400 (the current corona death figure is just under 100). How about other countries? No global (media and political) panic in 2018! I find that very strange, to say the least.

Italy, Winter 2016/2017: 25.000 flu deaths [www.nzz.ch]

Flu in Austria (pop. 8,8 mill):

Winter 2017/2018:
infected: 400.000+
deaths: 2800+

Winter 2018/2019:
infected: 140.000-150.000
deaths: 1.400
[www.kleinezeitung.at], [www.wienerzeitung.at]

If Corona will outdo the flu w.r.t. the number of dead is something we yet have to find out.


PS: Corona in Austria (March 20, 12:40h):

Tests: 15.613
Infected: 2282
mild progress: 2211
in hospital: 71
in intensive care: 13
recuperated: 9
dead: 6



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 13:44 by doitywoik.

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Happy24

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Doxa
Happy24, I think it is better to not think too much or postulate unnecessary entities. Occam's razor. There is no plot, there are no hidden agendas by WHO or whatever instances. No games by nasty people or tests by nasty nature. There is just a pandemia, with which the countries all over the world are trying to cope with the best they can. That's the way the world sometimes is. The world and life is and always has been contingent: there are things that we cannot control or foresee to happen, and when the shit happens, like now, all we can do is just to react and act the best we can according to the best knowledge we have at the moment. Was this reaction the best tactics most of the world is doing now - the blockdown and social distancing - well, that's for the future to judge when all is sit and done. No one knows that for sure yet, but it's the best option we do have now. We do know no better.

- Doxa

Very well said, Doxa. It is just when I go through my thoughts during those last two weeks, I realize that more than several times I thought about some restriction and thought that THAT might actually not happen. And it pretty much always happend the next day. And the very worst scenario I could imagine was that they will not allow people to go out to buy food...and what it would lead to. And just today I read that the government thinks about it...

Plus when I read commets of people on internet, it really gets me down. I come from a post-commuins country and when you read discussions, it looks like most people think that the borders should be closed permanently, that communists got it right. Of course, those are hundreds, maybe thousands of people writing such things on the internet. I have no idea what those other millions think - whether mostly the same, or whether they still value freedom. There is this thought always popping into my head nowadays, that I would much rather live freely even with the possibility of dying on some virus (I mean it will happen one day anyway), than to live in a police state, which I am affraid we are headding to. And I have the feeling that people just applaud to it. I know, that is just my opinion, can't speak for anybody else and I absolutely don't want to say I am correct or that my opinion is better than the opinion of those people thinking the opposite. But it is really difficult for me to think that maybe right now we are loosing our personal freedom for the rest of our lifes, or at least good part of it. At least in our coutry our politicians will be more than happy to do that and it looks like they have all the people's support.

I know, I should stop following news on the internet. The thing is, that I have completely avoided any internet news for about 5 or 6 years. And we don't have a TV since 10 years ago. My life got much better... But just 2 weeks ago I started to check the news again because of the virus. And as I am really not used to it, it gets me pretty bad.

Anyway - I didn't know the "Occam's razor," had to google it. So I even learned something :-)

Thank you, Happy24 - and with that mean not your nice words for me but of your thoughtful post. Really refreshing you brought that ex-communist country point of view here. To give us some real perspective. It is an open question how all of this affects to our world-order as we know it (mostly) now. True that several opportunist political movements are taking the advantage of this tragedy in order to push their own political agenda. The same here in 'old West' - the virus is named as a foreign product, similar to other 'aliens', and this gives an excuse shut the borders for good. And this will cause a domino effect to destroy step by step the pillars of a free and open society, of a liberal democracy as we know it. Dividing the world between 'us' and 'them', bewteen the 'good' ones and the 'bad' ones, us having all the good, and the rest all the bad, will always lead to a human catastroph - finally there is just a bunch of us alike enough by thoughts, ideology, religion, skin or whatever, while all the rest - like your neighbor - is an enemy, and the freedom is just another word with no real meaning. Like you remember in the states of old communist rule.

Anyway, a tragedy like this brings the worst from people but also the best. That's my hope, and I need to count on that. I especially hope that in Western countries people start a bit more reflecting more closely the essentials of our life and of our world-order. I am afraid that people probably have taken way too granted for decades the fruits of a liberal democracy (blinded by freedom to an extent they aren't able to appreciate it), and that they they don't see that nothing is certain in that aspect - and what it would be actually to lose it. Once seeing the contingency, I hope people start to appreciate the achieved rights and freedoms, and face all the responsibility (not just rights) it involves. That might affect them to do something about and for them. To save them, even to fight (metaphorically) for them. The cause is not "theirs" but "ours". So instead of picking up alien targets and blame those for everything - like a rabbit putting his head to bush and thinking he is safe now - people realize that it is us who has the responsibility to make things better. All of us. So stop wasting energy on secondary, half-thought, easy projects of blaming others and alianating people from each other but using all that energy for primary ones. Actually get back to the project of making our society better for all of us to live. I hope a responsible behavior, and with that a human solidarity, is a consequence of that. I don't like the war metaphor, but let's say, usually under such horrific circumstances people have a tendency to work better together and show solidarity.

I might sound idealistic, but shit, I am a philosopher by profession, so that's my moral obligation haha.

- Doxa



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 14:29 by Doxa.

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EddieByword

"Two wrongs don't make a right".

True.

Yet, my point is that we should address our own malpractices before pointing our finger to others.

And I am not referring to the obvious well known ones.

When I see prosperous realities like fast food stores, all-you-can-eat-for-10 euro meat and fish restaurants, hard discount food markets etc. where do people think that all the rubbish they are eating comes from?

After all the mad cow was 100% European ..,

C

Italy

In my small town there are 5 doctors who work in a polycenter. 3 infected, one negative but in quarantine like all employees of the polycenter. But there is no panic, people have understood that staying at home is the only solution
Sici

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liddas

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EddieByword

"Two wrongs don't make a right".

True.

Yet, my point is that we should address our own malpractices before pointing our finger to others.

And I am not referring to the obvious well known ones.

When I see prosperous realities like fast food stores, all-you-can-eat-for-10 euro meat and fish restaurants, hard discount food markets etc. where do people think that all the rubbish they are eating comes from?

After all the mad cow was 100% European ..,

C

Why either or?.....or 'this one first, this one second........why?.......

This one (virus) was and may still be, if it mutates the wrong way for us, an existential threat .......but I agree, feeding animals to cows and causing 'mad cow' disease was in essence just as mad and bad and 10,000 cows in a shed in the US that never see grass or the light of day is 'up there' amongst the most repugnant 'legal' things I've ever heard ..... and btw....I am 60 and first heard of Mac Donald's in 1990 and have only ever eaten two since then. Never again.

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Doxa

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EddieByword

I am 60 and first heard of Mac Donald's in 1990 and have only ever eaten two since then. Never again.

Not all the Chinese eat bat either. Actually a very tiny bit.

- Doxa

That may be true but 'wet' markets are prevalent - and not only in China of course - and extremely unhygienic and therefore dangerous....As I said, whether it was from a bat or pangolin or a wolf cub is irrelevant.

PS. Doxa - I think that may be one of the shortest posts you've ever scripted.........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 14:33 by EddieByword.

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Doxa

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EddieByword

I am 60 and first heard of Mac Donald's in 1990 and have only ever eaten two since then. Never again.

Not all the Chinese eat bat either. Actually a very tiny bit.

- Doxa

I wonder what the Vampire rate is in China.

I think it is a complete waste of time to blame a single country or a specific area on this virus, or any problem. May be it happened in China. May be it came to Italy early on, or Tyrol, or Seattle earlier than other places.

This is a worldwide crisis. Virus and border protection is the responsibility of our leaders. That is why we elect them, they are supposed to take care of our safety and well being. Also, they say they are smart, so now it is time to prove that.

Did anyone call the financial crisis in 208-2009 something like the USA-crisis? Sure it started in USA but nobody blamed USA with a USA-based name.

Same with WW2. Do we call it the German war? Not really.

Or. do we call the great tragedy of slavery the English slavery?

I don't like bullfighting. I hate it. But I do not call it the Spanish animal abuse bull fighting. I know all about it, but I do still respect all my Spanish friends, because we have values and moral and there is more to life than to make segregation and to make friend vs enemy games these days, or any day.

Sure we know the history, anyone may dig deep to know who did what and so on, but we are all living on the same planet, We are supposed to be living on this planet next year too, and the year after, and so on. No need to stigmatize one or the other.

Bjornulf

No one in this discussion has indicated any malice toward any country. I actually think this pandemic has brought people together. I really don't think it matters what diet a country possesses.

All information presented has been informative if not educational. Yes a post may be judgmental per a news service or source, Simply forgive and move on. This is a great forum and much appreciated. Actually, this forum is more informative than international news services. A sense of pride is felt.

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Chris Fountain
I actually think this pandemic has brought people together.

Heh. You just go on believing that one.

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keefriff99

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Chris Fountain
I actually think this pandemic has brought people together.

Heh. You just go on believing that one.

In a concerted effort - not social distancing - Thanks in advance for allowing this clarification

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Chris Fountain

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keefriff99

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Chris Fountain
I actually think this pandemic has brought people together.

Heh. You just go on believing that one.

In a concerted effort - not social distancing - Thanks in advance for allowing this clarification

Well I haven't been out in public since Monday, so I have no idea how well people are following social distancing guidelines. I need to go grocery shopping in the next day or two, so we'll see.

My response, while cynical, was more in what I see online (not always the best of humanity, to say the least)...I see the same hateful, petty, divisive, selfish behavior among people that's always been there.

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keefriff99

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Chris Fountain

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keefriff99

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Chris Fountain
I actually think this pandemic has brought people together.

Heh. You just go on believing that one.

In a concerted effort - not social distancing - Thanks in advance for allowing this clarification

Well I haven't been out in public since Monday, so I have no idea how well people are following social distancing guidelines. I need to go grocery shopping in the next day or two, so we'll see.

My response, while cynical, was more in what I see online (not always the best of humanity, to say the least)...I see the same hateful, petty, divisive, selfish behavior among people that's always been there.

Yep Agreed - Toilet Paper run proves your point

Social distancing isn't the only way we can keep ourselves healthy.

I suggest we all try a bit of "social media" distancing for our mental health.

While we are thankful for our ability to connect with one another & stay informed through technology, I personally have found that turning off the news feeds etc for an hour or so at a time has helped me to re-charge and to give me some clarity in this otherwise very unclear and ever-changing situation.

Stay safe, stay healthy!

Bjornulf, thanks you for your post above, suggesting we avoid indiscriminate blaming and labeling.

~"Love is Strong"~

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angee
Bjornulf, thanks you for your post above, suggesting we avoid indiscriminate blaming and labeling.

Agreed, we should also avoid the political BS that continues to get posted.

On the 7th day God created The Rolling Stones

As far as I can see it, there've been three different reactions by administrations toward the threat of a corona virus. The issue has been that of thinking about the pros and cons of every procedure. It is cold-blooded maths, for sure, but as I want to see it, there are genuine rational and human interests applied there.

(1) Economy first.
(2) Social order first.
(3) Health first.

The point of (1) has been that of calculating that the economical stability is the way to go: keeping that in order, that would offer such a safe belt for the rest that whatever happens, no matter how disastrous the particular symptoms are, in the long run it works the best for each of us if we keep up the economy going on as normal as possible. This has been the strategy of UK and US administrations initially, but they have lately changed their policy. Was the motivation initially that of having an upcoming election in mind (Trump) or based on expert consultation (Johnson), doesn't matter.

The point of (2) has been that of worried about the over-all effect of what shutting down means for a society as a whole. That is: the effect of shutting down has a worse consequence for a society and for people's lives than having the virus spreading without heavy control (strong administrational means). Finnish administration initially was seriously adapting this strategy, but as the things got worse (out of hand, that is), they - like most of others - quickly rejected in the favor of (3).

The point of (3), of course, is do the shutdown and social distancing. There is a rather big consensus around the world, that no matter how much it costs and affects in the long run, this is the only way to go. It's not that simple though: there might be some drastic consequences in some places - for example, in Sao Paolo of Brazil, there has been reported some serious signs of social disorder, such as robberies, etc. This might be some serious consequences for the whole social structure and order of society in the long run. No wonder some Americans, typically, are buying guns. The option (3) altogether is a heavy social experiment, of which especially Western liberal democracies have no experience since the Second World war. But common sense says we do not have a choice, but see what happens.

My intent was not being any moral judge here, but just reflect how the administrations have reacted to the issue, and briefly to understand their actions. It could be that the options (1) and (2) are based on a wrong estimation of the fatality of the corona virus - and once that was made clear, they quickly changed the strategy. However, that's not just the fault of some political leaders but also of their advisors (for example, that's happened in Finland in where THL - Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare - seemingly initially under-estimated the threat). That's very human. However, now it's not the time to name guilty ones, but to get us safely out of this catastrophe.

We live a bit too interesting times at the moment. Bloody dangerous times, actually.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 17:33 by Doxa.

a hand could give it to us weather to keep people at home, in western Italy it has rained only 8 days in the last 100 days, now 22°C
Sici

The fact that some people are pushing back so hard on the naming of this virus shows how irrational fear, panic, and hatred takes hold.

They just want to lash out and hurt people rather than try to elevate the collective discussion. It's why I have zero faith that America will rise to the occasion...people are going to start to getting shot in the streets once this thing really takes off.

Watching the regime pontificate. So shutting illegal immigration will win the war. Fauci is the ONLY one with any credibility. Pompeo has no reason to be there.

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keefriff99
The fact that some people are pushing back so hard on the naming of this virus shows how irrational fear, panic, and hatred takes hold.

They just want to lash out and hurt people rather than try to elevate the collective discussion. It's why I have zero faith that America will rise to the occasion...people are going to start to getting shot in the streets once this thing really takes off.

I’m not pushing back. I’m simply stating telling me where something came from isn’t racist and if someone wants to hurt someone because of that there was something already wrong with them

The coronavirus is killing far more men than women
Upward of 70 percent of deaths in Italy have been men. The question is: Why?

"With over 200,000 coronavirus cases worldwide and thousands of deaths, a striking pattern is appearing in the hardest-hit countries: More men are dying than women."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

U.K. - pubs, restaurants, gyms etc closing from this eve

I don't want to have any discussion on the naming policy of the virus. Any lobby or campaign or argue stating it is a human right to use different names will be deleted. I simply do not have time to manage and moderate those discussions here.

I do only see one term used in European and American press, including CNN, NYTimes, Washington Post, even Fox, so let's just respect that. Coronavirus, or short form corona.

Bjornulf

Anybody who is disliking "quarantine" and having their mobility/freedom restricted....

remember it the next time you plan on visiting a zoo or aquarium.

....at least we know why we are locked-in.

poor animals.

there's a lot of good that can/should come out of this (but probably won't):

a) Zoos and Aquariums should be banned forever...captivity is just plain wrong.

b) People should practice better hygiene overall...wash hands, cover cough etc.

c) We should pay virologists, doctors and nurses a LOT more....and pro athletes a LOT less (unless Tom Brady or Cristiano Renaldo is going to cure this for us, of course)

d) Teachers should get paid more (all of you engaged in home-schooling right now are probably realizing this...or have fired yourself for drinking on the job by now)

e) We should all give more to charity, if we are able (I recommend Doctors without Borders, if you're looking for one)

f) BV should be elected "Perspective Ambassador" for the World

maybe, rather than engaging in this "blame-game" we can make a list of things we hope will change (for the better) as we move forward?

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MisterDDDD
The coronavirus is killing far more men than women
Upward of 70 percent of deaths in Italy have been men. The question is: Why?

"With over 200,000 coronavirus cases worldwide and thousands of deaths, a striking pattern is appearing in the hardest-hit countries: More men are dying than women."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

They mentioned yesterday that "genetics" could be at play in Italy vs other countries. It's a bit hard to see what that could be but who knows.

Talking of Italy the latest numbers are in and they're dreadful :
New cases : 5986 - total : 47021
New deaths : 627 - total : 4032

The Chinese numbers are getting more suspicious by they day...

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

The coronavirus numbers from Italy seems to be abbounced at 6pm every day. Yesterday I was an optimist, but as some commented, we do of course need a lot more sample points in order to see a trend going down.

The number of deaths from Italy today is +627, and the total is 4,032 deaths from the virus. The numbers are more and more scary the larger they are, because after all there are human beings and so many tragedies and family losses behind every single death.

Statistically the day-to-day growth is +18%. This number is the one that should go down, and it has been as high as 24% and 26% during the past seven days, see below, but we really really hope to see the curve flattening, and then going down.

Italy coronavirus deaths

Fri 20-mar = 4032 => +18% (+627)
Thu 19-mar = 3405 => +14% (+427)
Wed 18-mar = 2978 => +19% (+475)
Tue 17-mar = 2503 => +16% (+345)
Mon 16-mar = 2158 => +19% (+349)
Sun 15-mar = 1809 => +26% (+368)
Sat 14-mar = 1441 => +14% (+175)
Fri 13-mar = 1266 => +24% (+250)
Thu 12-mar = 1016

Corona virus statistics by Worldometers.com - WORLD / COUNTRIES / ITALY

Bjornulf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-20 20:10 by bv.

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gotdablouse

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MisterDDDD
The coronavirus is killing far more men than women
Upward of 70 percent of deaths in Italy have been men. The question is: Why?

"With over 200,000 coronavirus cases worldwide and thousands of deaths, a striking pattern is appearing in the hardest-hit countries: More men are dying than women."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

They mentioned yesterday that "genetics" could be at play in Italy vs other countries. It's a bit hard to see what that could be but who knows.

Talking of Italy the latest numbers are in and they're dreadful :
New cases : 5986 - total : 47021
New deaths : 627 - total : 4032

The Chinese numbers are getting more suspicious by they day...

I just don't understand what's going on in Italy...haven't they been locked down for a couple of weeks now? How could it still be spreading like this?

It takes approx four - 4 - weeks from lockdown until the number of deaths change, if the lockdown is late, like in Italy.

First lockdown. If the lockdown is 100% like in China, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, then all new tested cases will go to zero within 14 days, or some more time if the area is as large as they were in China, and also for North Italy, a large area.

Then all people who got the virus up to the point of the lockdown, will be sick and in intensive care during the next few weeks.

This is why it does not make sense to look into day-by-day numbers, unless you know all data, all dates, and you are skilled in statistics.

The weekly statistics will be the most accurate way of monitoring how a lockdown is working. I will update my own weekly statistics every Monday, like I did earlier this week.

There is no quick fix for this virus. People who say so are presenting lies, or they do not understand. We will not see any good numbers from Italy, France, Spain, UK, USA until April. The curve will flatten some four weeks after the complete lockdown is in place, if everyone do respect the lockdown.

Bjornulf

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keefriff99

I just don't understand what's going on in Italy...haven't they been locked down for a couple of weeks now? How could it still be spreading like this?

Because what you are reading is an aggregate figure.

The epidemy first started in the north of Italy and is now spreading to the rest of the peninsula.

Things will get worse, because thousands of southern Italians who worked / studied in the north, returned to their hometowns in the south when the lockdown decree was announced.

C