Were you kids who are critical there when it came out? Just a question
It was way ahead of the pack in the day (except Bowie)
Go ahead, bite me

<Like "Mr. D" it has novelty in it>

Not sure about the novelty-part. IMO, the one-dimensional hypnotic groove that carries Mr D is very similar (both in terms of sound and function) to that of Ventilator Blues.

ROCKMAN

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DandelionPowderman


Not sure about the novelty-part. IMO, the one-dimensional hypnotic groove that carries Mr D is very similar (both in terms of sound and function) to that of Ventilator Blues.

Yeah, I get what you mean. As it starts, and what it basically at bottom is, is just another Richardsian riff based on one-dimensional repetition, but I think it is the delicious funky icing by almost any other instrument there, which sets it apart. "Ventilator Blues", or "Hip Shake" if you like, are based on hypnotic groove as well, but they are so 'conventional' by their stylistic choices and intrumentation. They are pure Americana, something from between cotton fields and juke joints, or Chess studios at most, but not something from a chic discotheque of Detroit, with the kids and grandkids of Muddy Waters and Sam Cooke growing up to be ganstas. I think that is typical for the Stones after the perfection of their style and signature as a blues-based, a bit country-flavored rock and roll band in Big Four - experimented in BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED, then stylistically perfected in STICKY FINGERS and EXILE - that their results typically are compromises between the old and new. The foundation of their sound is strong and cemented that it starts to get harded and harder to transform it naturally or even convincingly to fit to recent currents. If nothing else, the central element of their sound, Keith's guitar and its idiosyncratic sense of rhythm and signature sound, is so much rooted in the past. I think "Criss Cross" is an early symptom of that: trying to reach out, but still rooted in the past by its central musical components. The early 70's style funk is more like a make-up than a foundation.

If we follow the progression after the Big Four, it doesn't have to be only with the latest trends of Black American music, but also with the latest trends of white rock (Bowie, glam, punk, etc.). Sometimes they seem to nail it - the result of integrating the recent currents into their classical, matured sound is delicious (especially "Miss You" and SOME GIRLS altogether), but more and more often that coctail starts to sound a bit forced. GOATS HEAD SOUP has the first symptoms of that. For being a 'relevant' act, time simply wasn't on their side so nicely as before any longer. But that didn't mean that they mostly weren't able to come up with awesome music... Oh shit, they were! (I think this especially holds into their mid-70's 'low period' from GOATS HEAD SOUP to BLACK AND BLUE: now when the context doesn't mean anything any longer, one can really enjoy the deep musicality and depth, the presence of real muse, they so obviously still had at the time. Those albums, and even the cuts that didn't make them are full of gems me thinks, "Criss Cross" being one).

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-03 11:50 by Doxa.

Rockman, thank you very,very much !
great read !

Yes, thanks, Rockman, finally a reviewer that *gets it* and not just pass it off by being "a letdown compared to Exile"

Another hidden gem from the same era I've been listening closely lately is "Living In The Heart of Love" (yeah, a IORR candidate, but close enough). That's a kind of track, which makes me think that some lesser acts could have make a career out of it (for example, that's something Kiss guys only can dream of ever coming up with). But for the Stones it probably was just a bit too obvious at the time (not just the typical riff, but stealing, for example, a verse from "Brown Sugar"), and all it probably was good for was inspiring a bit of "Luxury".

But dammit it is such a fiesta of pure Stones rock and roll sound in its full glory! Pure joy and sex! So much energy and all that shit. There is a bit Slade-like football sing-alonging going on, but it is such a chaos of rock and roll cliches (mostly self-made) that there is a potentiality for a rock and roll anthem for any brain-dead rock kid. I think the 80's/early 90's would have been a perfect decade for such a gem to shine. Rock music was then such a caricature circus version of itself - all those hair bands and so - so that would have been total gold with a hectic video to go with. Then the Stones left acts like uprising Guns'n'Roses and even old farts like Aerosmith of more 'serious bands' to collect that 'hard rock' audience. Just compare the natural energy and drive of "Living In The Heart of Love" into such desperate and boring attempts to recicle their old diamond ideas like "It Must Be Hell" or forced and commercially failed attempts to make stadium hard rock like "One Hit" or "Rock and A Hard Place"? Of course, this is a hopeless thought experiment, since by the mid-80's (UNDERCOVER, DIRTY WORK, STEEL WHEELS) they hadn't any longer the ability or stamina to do justice for it, and the original would have been a bit too raw to be released by that day's standards. But still fun to imagine - if anything else, to understand how damn great and vital they were at their so called 70's worst..

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-03 13:04 by Doxa.

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Erik_Snow
Yes, thanks, Rockman, finally a reviewer that *gets it* and not just pass it off by being "a letdown compared to Exile"

Indeed. Although just four stars for an eternal classic like "Angie" makes me wonder...

Generally, I hope the upcoming re-issue of the album helps people more to see the greatness and uniqueness of this album in the Stones catalogue. The Stones were true artists back then. Of course, it is not any big crowd interested in things like that today, but so what... I think the reputation and significance of THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES has been nicely re-viewed lately, not just being a failed attempt to imitate SGT. PEPPER or their awful odyssey from their main street. Especially hipsters today who are not so fond of typical rock canon seem to dig that album.

Thanks Rockman!

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-03 12:56 by Doxa.

It’s interesting we haven’t heard more about this through other media sources

That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time.he actually said the Stones may have been influenced by Traffic.
No concept of the times, that would be like a new U2 album coming out and saying it had a drive by truckers influence.
The Stones were the premiere Rock and Roll band at that moment in time. they had outlasted the Beatles and had Zep nipping at their heels.
Their influences were probably The Stones at that point.why not look to the best band on the planet.
Also those quotes on sidebar, what s pathetic twat Nick Kent was, he didn’t understand Dancing With Mr Death even though he thought he was some authority on he band, fckng half wit.

…. love puttin' that ole review up …. gets lem jumpin'



ROCKMAN

ROCKMAN

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time.he actually said the Stones may have been influenced by Traffic.
No concept of the times, that would be like a new U2 album coming out and saying it had a drive by truckers influence.
The Stones were the premiere Rock and Roll band at that moment in time. they had outlasted the Beatles and had Zep nipping at their heels.
Their influences were probably The Stones at that point.why not look to the best band on the planet.
Also those quotes on sidebar, what s pathetic twat Nick Kent was, he didn’t understand Dancing With Mr Death even though he thought he was some authority on he band, fckng half wit.

People always forget the context. The Stones were at their absolute Zenith. 1972 was Hot Rocks, and Exile, and the American tour. They were sizzling hot. Everybody was waiting for the next move. They did a 180 and released a beautiful ballad, 'Angie', a worldwide smash. But it was melancholy, as was the album it came from. And, unfortunately, the album sounded uneven, down, and not the level of quality expected by the band that had just released 4 great studio albums, and one of the top five live albums of all time. They sounded burned out, regretful, unsure if they should continue. They would never be the same after this album. Never as deep. People still listened to it, just not as much as the others.

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time

That's the very definition of critical assessment. Forgetting about context and offering fresh views. If you don't do that now and then you're the hostage of old farts who'll spit in your face : "yadda yadda... I was THERE and let me tell you how it was back then!" (snore).
Great article from a great mag btw. "Uncut" and "Mojo" still hold the torch of good rock journalism while "Rolling Stone" has completely sunk.

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dcba

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time

That's the very definition of critical assessment. Forgetting about context and offering fresh views. If you don't do that now and then you're the hostage of old farts who'll spit in your face : "yadda yadda... I was THERE and let me tell you how it was back then!" (snore).
Great article from a great mag btw. "Uncut" and "Mojo" still hold the torch of good rock journalism while "Rolling Stone" has completely sunk.

Music and literature....one judges it by one's own experience and understanding of it, otherwise you're a fool, should one follow the crowd at the time of it's release to make a judgement? Then you'd still think, for instance, that everything Dylan released after "Another Side of" in 1964 is a stab in the back on his "fans"

>>People forget about the context [...]<<

That's not important for my taste, I don't need the context or other people's ratings of this or that to make up my own mind, when it comes to music, which is a very subjective thing. Letting "the context" decide my musical taste.....no thanks



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-04 12:01 by Erik_Snow.

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Erik_Snow

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dcba

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time

That's the very definition of critical assessment. Forgetting about context and offering fresh views. If you don't do that now and then you're the hostage of old farts who'll spit in your face : "yadda yadda... I was THERE and let me tell you how it was back then!" (snore).
Great article from a great mag btw. "Uncut" and "Mojo" still hold the torch of good rock journalism while "Rolling Stone" has completely sunk.

Music and literature....one judges it by one's own experience and understanding of it, otherwise you're a fool, should one follow the crowd at the time of it's release to make a judgement? Then you'd still think, for instance, that everything Dylan released after "Another Side of" in 1964 is a stab in the back on his "fans"

>>People forget about the context [...]<<

That's not important for my taste, I don't need the context or other people's ratings of this or that to make up my own mind, when it comes to music, which is a very subjective thing. Letting "the context" decide my musical taste.....no thanks

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-04 12:11 by GetYerAngie.

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Rockman
…. love puttin' that ole review up …. gets lem jumpin'

Except you guys totally misunderstood what I was saying. I didn’t mean some “you had to be there” nonsense.
I was taking issue with the guy saying they were being influenced by Traffic and Van Morrison, two really good acts but in no way in a position to be influencing a band like the Stones at the time.

….its okay Lem … Gotta laugh at how ya
scream and throw things around ta get ya point across …

But hey Miller did produce those early Traffic
albums so maybe some influence seeped across inta Stones camp …



ROCKMAN

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lem motlow

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Rockman
…. love puttin' that ole review up …. gets lem jumpin'

Except you guys totally misunderstood what I was saying. I didn’t mean some “you had to be there” nonsense.
I was taking issue with the guy saying they were being influenced by Traffic and Van Morrison, two really good acts but in no way in a position to be influencing a band like the Stones at the time.

I get what you're saying. But I actually think the opposite: that it would make sense for a reviewer of that time to use Traffic and Van as examples of influence.
Those acts never got much bigger than they were back then.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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lem motlow

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Rockman
…. love puttin' that ole review up …. gets lem jumpin'

Except you guys totally misunderstood what I was saying. I didn’t mean some “you had to be there” nonsense.
I was taking issue with the guy saying they were being influenced by Traffic and Van Morrison, two really good acts but in no way in a position to be influencing a band like the Stones at the time.

I get what you're saying. But I actually think the opposite: that it would make sense for a reviewer of that time to use Traffic and Van as examples of influence.
Those acts never got much bigger than they were back then.

Well, at least Jagger has always had his ears open what's going on. Like Keith explained in LIFE that what Mick does is sometimes subconscious... he might pick up things he hear and then write songs out of them, not even knowing/remembering/caring the original source. This was in the context of "Anybody Seen My Baby?", but I think it can be applied to the way past and not just to certain melody phrases (well, to be fair, Keith's antenna also picks up sometimes things quite familiar sounding...) That's what professionals do, in contrast to amateurs, if we are to be believe T.S. Elliot...

But more seriously, I think Van Morrison influence is strong and obvious in "Winter" - Not just the atmosphere in the song, but Mick also borrows a lot from Van's distinctive way of singing.

As fas as Traffic goes, I need to admit my ignorance here. I know so little about early 70's Traffic that I have no idea what the influence can be in GOATS HEAD SOUP. But what it is interesting - taking the Jimmy Miller connection - that already in "Sympathy For The Devil" and "You Can't Always Get Wht You Want" there was some surprising similarities to certain Traffic songs. We have discussed that before in this forum.

- Doxa

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floodonthepage

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GasLightStreet

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Maindefender

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DandelionPowderman

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dcba
Yes I agree with myself...
Didn't Keef once complain Mick always wants to play the songs live too fast? Keef probbaly thinks that if you're too fast you have the rock but you miss the roll/the swing.
Can't say he's wrong if you watch a 1988 video of a Mick gig.

He did forget that himself in 1982, though. The merck might have had something to do with it.

Love the extra solos before the third verse, btw





[www.youtube.com]

Wow Jagger drinking JD on stage in '82.......interesting

That performance of Jumpin' Jack Flash is a perfect example of what's been wrong with it since 1972 - they fly through it yet play it way too long, yell and howl, it has no swagger - why bother. Horrible.

Why bother? Seriously? I'd go back in time and go to this show in a heartbeat.

Not talking about the show, just Jumpin' Jack Flash. The way they slaughtered songs on that tour was very impressive, good and bad. Jumpin' Jack Flash was bad.

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DandelionPowderman


True! I've been listening to GHS non-stop the last couple of days

HAHA! I've made 2 playlists of it reimagined, one with the 2 songs on TATTOO YOU plus Criss Cross and Short And Curlies, others just in different order based on one of the Rolling Stone articles.

It's quite an enjoyable album, really. There's something in the intro of Criss Cross that captures the sound of GHS quite well, just as Dancing With Mr D, 100 Years Ago, Can You Hear The Music and Through The Lonely Nights do exactly - that swampy reverbed big sound punctuated by wah-wah guitar that's more texture than scream. As funky as EOMS is, GHS is funk... I've never considered funk just to be a janky guitar, doodling bass line and trippy drum beat - I've considered it to be hypnotic, which is why The Meters were so good - they could do both without being too much.

I love that they left Bill Wyman's mistake in Criss Cross (2:39 or so, after the tongue to tongue bit right before Mick says Save mayyyyyy).

Personally I LOVE the 81/82 JJF versions. Much better than the polished Vegas style that has come about since

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time.he actually said the Stones may have been influenced by Traffic.
No concept of the times, that would be like a new U2 album coming out and saying it had a drive by truckers influence.
The Stones were the premiere Rock and Roll band at that moment in time. they had outlasted the Beatles and had Zep nipping at their heels.
Their influences were probably The Stones at that point.why not look to the best band on the planet.
Also those quotes on sidebar, what s pathetic twat Nick Kent was, he didn’t understand Dancing With Mr Death even though he thought he was some authority on he band, fckng half wit.

It's apparently from 1993 when the Virgin Reissues came out and a perspective from a new generation that was probably the majority of the CD record buying audience by someone that isn't a fanboy of EXILE and actually gets the album for its own sake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-04 16:44 by GasLightStreet.

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Rockman

= "Jagger and Taylor did Goats Head Soup; I was completely out of it...I hardly did anything"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-04 18:19 by Erik_Snow.

“...and leave it up to them to tell me how it should go for them. Then not give them writing credit.”

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time.he actually said the Stones may have been influenced by Traffic.
No concept of the times, that would be like a new U2 album coming out and saying it had a drive by truckers influence.
The Stones were the premiere Rock and Roll band at that moment in time. they had outlasted the Beatles and had Zep nipping at their heels.
Their influences were probably The Stones at that point.why not look to the best band on the planet.
Also those quotes on sidebar, what s pathetic twat Nick Kent was, he didn’t understand Dancing With Mr Death even though he thought he was some authority on he band, fckng half wit.

You don't think it's possible for an established band to be influenced by someone else? Seems to me they've been influenced by all kinds of music and styles throughout their career, right up through ABB. That's not a knock or some kind of an assertion that they don't have an inner sense of who they are and what they are, musically speaking. You don't think "Miss You" was partly brought on by what was going on around them? I definitely hear some Traffic and Stevie Wonder in GHS....it doesn't mean they needed it or someone is criticizing them. Maybe they just wanted it in there and were excited by it.

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floodonthepage

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time.he actually said the Stones may have been influenced by Traffic.
No concept of the times, that would be like a new U2 album coming out and saying it had a drive by truckers influence.
The Stones were the premiere Rock and Roll band at that moment in time. they had outlasted the Beatles and had Zep nipping at their heels.
Their influences were probably The Stones at that point.why not look to the best band on the planet.
Also those quotes on sidebar, what s pathetic twat Nick Kent was, he didn’t understand Dancing With Mr Death even though he thought he was some authority on he band, fckng half wit.

You don't think it's possible for an established band to be influenced by someone else? Seems to me they've been influenced by all kinds of music and styles throughout their career, right up through ABB. That's not a knock or some kind of an assertion that they don't have an inner sense of who they are and what they are, musically speaking. You don't think "Miss You" was partly brought on by what was going on around them? I definitely hear some Traffic and Stevie Wonder in GHS....it doesn't mean they needed it or someone is criticizing them. Maybe they just wanted it in there and were excited by it.

I've read that Jimmy Miller told the band while they were working up "Sympathy for the Devil" that it sounded like "Dear Mr Fantasy".

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Doxa

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Erik_Snow
Yes, thanks, Rockman, finally a reviewer that *gets it* and not just pass it off by being "a letdown compared to Exile"

Indeed. Although just four stars for an eternal classic like "Angie" makes me wonder...

I wouldn't give it 5 stars either - it's a tad bit schmaltzy.

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floodonthepage

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lem motlow
That review is bullshit, it’s from decades after the album was released so it Captures none of the zeitgeist or the place the band was in at the time.he actually said the Stones may have been influenced by Traffic.
No concept of the times, that would be like a new U2 album coming out and saying it had a drive by truckers influence.
The Stones were the premiere Rock and Roll band at that moment in time. they had outlasted the Beatles and had Zep nipping at their heels.
Their influences were probably The Stones at that point.why not look to the best band on the planet.
Also those quotes on sidebar, what s pathetic twat Nick Kent was, he didn’t understand Dancing With Mr Death even though he thought he was some authority on he band, fckng half wit.

You don't think it's possible for an established band to be influenced by someone else? Seems to me they've been influenced by all kinds of music and styles throughout their career, right up through ABB. That's not a knock or some kind of an assertion that they don't have an inner sense of who they are and what they are, musically speaking. You don't think "Miss You" was partly brought on by what was going on around them? I definitely hear some Traffic and Stevie Wonder in GHS....it doesn't mean they needed it or someone is criticizing them. Maybe they just wanted it in there and were excited by it.

Seems like Lem is "defending" the Stones, which makes zero sense. Some influences on them are obvious, like Bob Dylan and Muddy Waters, others are obviously more subtle. I find the rolling riff of Dancing With Mr D to be a hilarious take on The Beatles' Drive My Car Day Tripper, which Keith essentially lifted for his new riffage of Satisfaction in 1969 - and then he brought it up 4 to the key of A and slowed it way down for Dancing With Mr D.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-03-05 10:30 by GasLightStreet.