Tell Me :
Talk
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
To this date I still can't get used to the new vocals over old track formula. They just don't sound right to these ears of mine. Even the best of them, Plundered my Soul, I would rather have had a new recording from scratch rather than that (admittedly good sounding) cut and paste backing track (Wyman lovers forgive me!).
C
I used to feel that way, but the older I get the more I look at other facts like..."Angie" being primarily a Keith song or "Heartbreaker" starting out as a Keith song. "Coming Down Again" is also a ballad. "Dancing with Mr. D" and even "Can You Hear the Music?" in their earliest embryonic forms were Keith's ideas. So what did Mick bring to the table? "A Hundred Years Ago" (written in 1970 according to Mr. Taylor), "Silver Train" (out of the live arrangement of "All Down the Line"), "Hide Your Love" (because Ahmet asked for one of their improvised piano blues to be included), "Winter" (a work-in-progress since "Blood Red Wine") and "Star, Star" (all Mick according to Keith, but clearly inspired by the Chuck Berry covers they were playing in concert).
Over time, I've learned to pay less attention to either of their sweeping generalizations and more to the details. EXILE isn't really Keith's baby. If it was we wouldn't have "Shine a Light" or "Stop Breaking Down" or "Ventilator Blues," among others. DIRTY WORK isn't really all Keith either. Mick worked very hard on shaping "One Hit" with Keith and was responsible for most or all of the lyrics to "Fight," "Hold Back," "Dirty Work," and "Had It With You." While the final version of "Sleep Tonight" is all Keith, Mick took a stab at a pinch-hitter ballad of his own ("Your Love"). Popular opinion would say Mick's only contributions were "Winning Ugly" and "Back to Zero." Likewise, SOME GIRLS and EMOTIONAL RESCUE contain plenty of Keith songs despite the viewpoint they are Mick's albums. Keith was also very involved with UNDERCOVER including reshaping the musical direction of the title track. They obscure most of this in their generalizations to either hog credit for themselves or shift blame on the other. It's not a Mick issue or a Keith issue. They both do it. Among creative partners, it's typical to try to take the lion's share of the credit for success and to avoid sharing the blame for failure. Human nature.
Probably because you're musically educated and I just listen to music! Both songs share the "wrap my coat around ya" lyric and both songs have a similar musical feel, though they may very well be unrelated for someone who actually reads music.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
There are few Stones social commentary songs that I like, and The Doo Doo Song isn't one of them. The opening riff is played on a Clavinet! How awful is that?
Heartbreaker is so perfectly 1973
Saying Goats Head isn’t a rock album is fair, although it has the kick ass rocker Starf***er. It has depth, range of emotion, and mood that many following albums didn’t have, including everything from the 80’s except Tattoo You.
For that, it’s a great album.
..........Hey friggin' cool ta see Charlie and Keith
using an Australian made 71 HQ Holden ta get around in …..
ROCKMAN
As is Angie, but maybe you had to be in my shoes in '73 (as a ten year old) to fully understand my perspective...still love it to this day.
As for the album itself, thankfully my older bro bought it and I clearly remember looking at the creepy cover while listening to it all.
At the time I didn't know or care what Stones album came before it, but what I did know is that Angie and most of the album was CLASSIC!
To me the only real misfire is Star Star - not a bad tune, but the cliche Chuck Berry and silly lyrics makes it non -essential imo.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
This is PRECISELY why I love them so much and WHY THEY ARE the World's greatest (EVER) Rock and Roll band.
On each album we get a huge variety of tracks in rock, blues, country, funk, soppy ballads and even gospel, soul and latin influenced stuff. And they (seem to) do it so effortlessly as though each genre is THE genre they 'specialise' in.
If each album was JUST rock, they'd almost be Aerosmith (heaven forbid).
If each album was just ballads, they'd be, who, Air Supply ;-)
If each album was just country, they'd be the Byrds
etc
But they ARE The Rolling Stones, and they live in each genre.
Rod
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-11 05:16 by bitusa2012.
Funny I never used to like GHS either but it grew on me and now I think it’s a fantastic album, especially during the colder winter months for some reason. IORT is the one that I really find to be the weakest of this time period.
Do you mean "Angie?"
Maybe he thought FTC was on GHS? Does he mean that because of the Mick falsetto?
The guitar solos on Hide Your Love are coming in from all channels, and they're different in volume. It's indeed a freaky mix - as in not a good one / amateurish.
I agree on GHS being a very good album. The rest of your post, though:
<The guitars are the worst sounding of any album>
Obviously not. Some of the 60s albums are way worse, as is IORR in places.
<On some songs like heartbreaker,can you hear the music ,silver train,the guitars are way too low in the mix and the keyboards and percussion are way too high>
For your liking, you mean? There is only one guitar on Heartbreaker, for instance. How much higher in the mix could it be, without ruining the mix? The point of that mix is to balance the guitar and the clavinet, panned in the left and right channels. With that groundwork, the horns can take up more and more space as the song reaches its crescendo. IMO, that works splendidly. When Taylor takes the solo, he's centered (if memory serves) and set higher in the mix.
The guitars on Can You Hear The Music are super-clear. Keith's wah wah-riff plods along and sets the groove. Taylor's melodic double-guitars are the icing om the cake in the melodic passages. You can't hear them properly? I think they're mixed like that to create a unity, instead of merely a guitar solo. You're listening to a whole band creating magic in those passages. IMO, it's perfect.
Is it Mick's guitar you find too low on Silver Train - the one that starts the song? At least Taylor's slide guitar is loud and clear. Remarkably clear.
<On Angie,the acoustic guitars sound muffled>
Angie is one of those very few perfect Stones-recording. As far as the acoustic guitars go, we can hear every lick they're playing - both Keith's leading guitar and Taylor's 12 string. They're not muddled at all. The only thing that's a little off on Angie is Bill's slightly out of tune bass and some bleeding ghost vocals from earlier takes that we barely can hear.
<On 100 years ago he plays a great solo which is too low in the mix>
It's not a solo per se, as Taylor is adding to Mick's vocal. Turn that more up and the vocals disappear. As much as we wanna listen to a brilliant guitar solo isolated from the band, there is a reason for using those levels.
I'll agree, though on the overall sound of GHS not being very good. The recording made the instruments sound somewhat distant. That also added to the album's mood and dark vibe, though. But personally, I wouldn't criticise the mix, aka the instrument levels.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-11 13:52 by DandelionPowderman.
not awful...The Bomb
Plundered My Soul would be nowhere near as good as it is if the current Rolling Stones would've recorded it.
Talk about your favorite band.
For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
ab
()
Date: February 10, 2020 12:46
Quote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: February 10, 2020 13:03
Quote
SpudQuote
jbwelda
Why are you folks so down on the bonus tracks from Some Girls and EOMS? I think they are great and I know if they were issued on bootleg, people would be going absolutely nuts over them, especially in the quality they are on the official releases.
What specifically was wrong with the Some Girls set? were not the bonus tracks on a separate disk?
jb
The SG bonus disc for me stands on its own feet as a very good album.
I love it.
What's wrong with it, for some of those "in the know", is that it maybe doesn't have the tracks they thought should be on it, or it had tracks that they though weren't appropriate because they weren't strictly speaking from the SG sessions.
None of that matters to me . It's probably one of my favourite albums...and for me , for an album that you can't buy on vinyl.... that's saying a lot !
Whatever finds it's way onto bonus releases, you'll never please everybody with the content.
To this date I still can't get used to the new vocals over old track formula. They just don't sound right to these ears of mine. Even the best of them, Plundered my Soul, I would rather have had a new recording from scratch rather than that (admittedly good sounding) cut and paste backing track (Wyman lovers forgive me!).
C
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 10, 2020 13:35
Quote
jbwelda
exactly the kind of quote I expect out of Sir Mick, Like a bunch of rock songs would be bad...instead lets give em Emotional Rescue and Indian Girl (later, I know). Although I like GHS, it pales to albums full of a bunch of rock songs, and its clear who the instigator is. Some times I really wonder about that guys taste in music. Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
jb
I used to feel that way, but the older I get the more I look at other facts like..."Angie" being primarily a Keith song or "Heartbreaker" starting out as a Keith song. "Coming Down Again" is also a ballad. "Dancing with Mr. D" and even "Can You Hear the Music?" in their earliest embryonic forms were Keith's ideas. So what did Mick bring to the table? "A Hundred Years Ago" (written in 1970 according to Mr. Taylor), "Silver Train" (out of the live arrangement of "All Down the Line"), "Hide Your Love" (because Ahmet asked for one of their improvised piano blues to be included), "Winter" (a work-in-progress since "Blood Red Wine") and "Star, Star" (all Mick according to Keith, but clearly inspired by the Chuck Berry covers they were playing in concert).
Over time, I've learned to pay less attention to either of their sweeping generalizations and more to the details. EXILE isn't really Keith's baby. If it was we wouldn't have "Shine a Light" or "Stop Breaking Down" or "Ventilator Blues," among others. DIRTY WORK isn't really all Keith either. Mick worked very hard on shaping "One Hit" with Keith and was responsible for most or all of the lyrics to "Fight," "Hold Back," "Dirty Work," and "Had It With You." While the final version of "Sleep Tonight" is all Keith, Mick took a stab at a pinch-hitter ballad of his own ("Your Love"). Popular opinion would say Mick's only contributions were "Winning Ugly" and "Back to Zero." Likewise, SOME GIRLS and EMOTIONAL RESCUE contain plenty of Keith songs despite the viewpoint they are Mick's albums. Keith was also very involved with UNDERCOVER including reshaping the musical direction of the title track. They obscure most of this in their generalizations to either hog credit for themselves or shift blame on the other. It's not a Mick issue or a Keith issue. They both do it. Among creative partners, it's typical to try to take the lion's share of the credit for success and to avoid sharing the blame for failure. Human nature.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 10, 2020 15:05
Are Sticky Fingers and Exile «full of a bunch of rock songs»?
Of course not. Those album's strengths are within their musical variation.
Exile wouldn't be the same without:
Sweet Virginia
Torn And Frayed
Sweet Black Angel
Loving Cup
Let It Loose
I Just Wanna See His Face
Shine A Light
Shake Your Hips
Sticky Fingers wouldn't be the same without:
Wild Horses
You Gotta Move
I Got The Blues
Sister Morphine
Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
And Rocky, what is the connection between Blood Red Wine and Winter? I've never been able to hear it.
Of course not. Those album's strengths are within their musical variation.
Exile wouldn't be the same without:
Sweet Virginia
Torn And Frayed
Sweet Black Angel
Loving Cup
Let It Loose
I Just Wanna See His Face
Shine A Light
Shake Your Hips
Sticky Fingers wouldn't be the same without:
Wild Horses
You Gotta Move
I Got The Blues
Sister Morphine
Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
And Rocky, what is the connection between Blood Red Wine and Winter? I've never been able to hear it.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 10, 2020 16:23
Quote
DandelionPowderman
And Rocky, what is the connection between Blood Red Wine and Winter? I've never been able to hear it.
Probably because you're musically educated and I just listen to music! Both songs share the "wrap my coat around ya" lyric and both songs have a similar musical feel, though they may very well be unrelated for someone who actually reads music.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: February 10, 2020 18:32
I hear Winter guitar lines on solo when I listen to YCAGWYW.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
stickyfingers101
()
Date: February 10, 2020 23:49
Quote
abQuote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
ab
()
Date: February 11, 2020 02:00
Quote
stickyfingers101Quote
abQuote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
There are few Stones social commentary songs that I like, and The Doo Doo Song isn't one of them. The opening riff is played on a Clavinet! How awful is that?
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Taylor1
()
Date: February 11, 2020 02:06
Quote
abQuote
stickyfingers101Quote
abQuote
bam. IMO,the mix on Heartbreaker is crappy.The percussion and keyboards are way too high in the mix and the guitars are too lowQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
There are few Stones social commentary songs that I like, and The Doo Doo Song isn't one of them. The opening riff is played on a Clavinet! How awful is that?
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
exilestones
()
Date: February 11, 2020 02:33
Love these pics! Here's an excuse to post them again.
Thanks for the link to the Music Life photos.
I searched high and low to find these photos above.
I would to have high quality flat scans of these. They are rare and awesome! Thanks!
Quote
Toru A
For Jamaican Recording Lovers
All the photos taken by Koh Hasebe
Thanks for the link to the Music Life photos.
I searched high and low to find these photos above.
I would to have high quality flat scans of these. They are rare and awesome! Thanks!
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Maindefender
()
Date: February 11, 2020 02:46
Quote
abQuote
stickyfingers101Quote
abQuote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
There are few Stones social commentary songs that I like, and The Doo Doo Song isn't one of them. The opening riff is played on a Clavinet! How awful is that?
Heartbreaker is so perfectly 1973
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
TravelinMan
()
Date: February 11, 2020 02:51
Quote
abQuote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Saying Goats Head isn’t a rock album is fair, although it has the kick ass rocker Starf***er. It has depth, range of emotion, and mood that many following albums didn’t have, including everything from the 80’s except Tattoo You.
For that, it’s a great album.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: February 11, 2020 03:05
..........Hey friggin' cool ta see Charlie and Keith
using an Australian made 71 HQ Holden ta get around in …..
ROCKMAN
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: February 11, 2020 03:20
Hey yeah Exile babeeee … you
are fast …..that's a two door coupe version...
Charlie & Keef's looks like a four door sedan …
ROCKMAN
are fast …..that's a two door coupe version...
Charlie & Keef's looks like a four door sedan …
ROCKMAN
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: February 11, 2020 03:27
Quote
MaindefenderQuote
abQuote
stickyfingers101Quote
abQuote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
There are few Stones social commentary songs that I like, and The Doo Doo Song isn't one of them. The opening riff is played on a Clavinet! How awful is that?
Heartbreaker is so perfectly 1973
As is Angie, but maybe you had to be in my shoes in '73 (as a ten year old) to fully understand my perspective...still love it to this day.
As for the album itself, thankfully my older bro bought it and I clearly remember looking at the creepy cover while listening to it all.
At the time I didn't know or care what Stones album came before it, but what I did know is that Angie and most of the album was CLASSIC!
To me the only real misfire is Star Star - not a bad tune, but the cliche Chuck Berry and silly lyrics makes it non -essential imo.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
JordyLicks96
()
Date: February 11, 2020 03:36
RollingStone Magazine Review of Goats Head Soup:
History has proven it unwise to jump to conclusions about Rolling Stones albums. At first Sticky Fingers seemed merely a statement of doper hipness on which the Stones (in Greil Marcus’ elegant phrase) “rattled drugs as if they were maracas.” But drugs wound up serving a figurative as well as a literal purpose and the album became broader and more ambiguous with each repeated listening.
At first, Exile on Main Street seemed a terrible disappointment, with its murky, mindless mixes and concentration on the trivial. Over time, it emerged as a masterful study in poetic vulgarity. And if neither of the albums had eventually grown on me thematically, the music would have finally won me over anyway.
Now Goats Head Soup stands as the antithesis of Exile — the Stones never worry about contradicting themselves — and it is a wise move, for it would have been suicidal to Exile‘s conceits any further. Compared to the piling on of one raunchy number on top of another, Soup is a romantic work, with an unmistakable thread of life-affirming pragmatisms running through it. It is set apart not only from Exile, but every past Stones’ LP, by its emphasis on the ballad. Its three key songs — “Angie,” “Comin’ Down Again,” and “Winter” — are suffused with melancholy. But of the five rockers, only “Star Star” (“@#$%&”) rings out with classic Stones sass. The others exist either more as changes of pace or as commentary on the album’s larger mood, rather than as autonomous works.
And yet for all its differences, Soup sustains some significant continuities with its immediate predecessors. With all its rocker energy, it was the personal, subjective songs on Sticky Fingers, like “Wild Horses” and “Moonlight Mile,” that finally lingered in my mind. And for all its thunder, Exile contained in whatever lyrics were audible, a very personal sense of weariness and confusion. “Tumbling Dice,” “Let It Loose” and “Torn and Frayed” were sung with such pent-up emotion that their powerful band tracks flew outward from the vocal, as if the direct result of inspiration drawn from it.
As usual, on Soup the Stones continue to work within existing frameworks, redefining and personalizing everything they touch. In this case, they make brilliant use of the styles of some proteges — Van Morrison on “Winter” and Gram Parsons on “Comin’ Down Again” — while picking up a few things from groups as disparate as the Allman Brothers Band and War. The string arrangements are again close in texture to Elton John’s. But they use all of their influences in a fashion superior to the current recordings of their originators. Other artists have built careers on modes the Stones have kicked away without a backward look.
The Stones succeed because they rarely forget their purpose — the creation of rock & roll drama. It is for that reason that they can move from the snow-white Americana of “Comin’ Down Again” into the urban R&B of “Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)” without the batting of an eyelash — theirs or ours. When they are uncertain of their purpose — as on “Dancin’ With Mr. D.” — they can be hopelessly silly. That track is the weakest opener ever so positioned on one of their albums, and they’ve never performed with less conviction.
But it is strictly one of a kind, for after it Soup emerges as a consistent piece of work, even if its classic moments are confined to four songs. “100 Years Ago” is the album’s real introduction and contains in equal portions the two basic strains of the album: the churning, repetitive R&B of the fast songs and the solemn melancholy of the ballads. In the song’s linear structure, each element is consecutively isolated and focused on. The strains, like the album’s songs, coexist without blending. The R&B eventually suggests violence and irrationality while the slow music suggests reason and vulnerability. In the process of juxtaposing opposites, the Stones make a partly practical and partly moral choice — one of survival over dissipation.
The first ballad, “Comin’ Down Again,” is closely related to “Wild Horses,” from Keith’s frayed but loving vocal to the Burritos-related broad metaphor at its center:
Comin’ down again (sky fallin’ down again)
Comin’ down again (sky fallin’ down again)
Where are all my friends?
Comin’ down again,
On the ground again.
If there’s a moment on the album in which sadness outweighs hope, it’s in Keith’s voice. This feeling, combined with the fact that his distinctive rhythm guitar — one of the seven wonders of rock & roll — is subdued, disguised or inaudible through much of the album, makes me uneasy.
Between “Comin’ Down Again” and “Angie” sits “Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker),” a broadly drawn third-person narrative in dramatic juxtaposition to the songs surrounding it. It relates an incident of big-city violence hardly uncommon in the real world, but jarring in this context. It works as both thematic and stylistic counterpoint. The agony resulting from a failed love relationship is still ultimately affirmative, and it’s relatively easy to bear compared to the agony incurred by some random violent act emanating from a stranger.
There is a crucial substitution of vocal chorus for horn parts (although the latter are used in a different context) that is both an explicit rejection of Exile‘s mode and an attempt on the album’s fiercest song to rehumanize the band through the substitution of voice for the mechanical force of instruments. As on several of the other fast songs, the lead is a Leslie-amplified wah-wah guitar (no track credits are offered — is it Mick Taylor?) that sounds both unearthly and more contemporary than classic Stones style and puts new stress on Mick T. He’s not yet the master Richard is, but he can play in the traditional Stones manner (“Sway”) and add a powerful new dimension to it (his solos on “Love in Vain” and “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” during the band’s ’72 concerts). On Soup, he relies more on discipline than imagination, except for his exquisite solo on “Winter.” He is obviously coming into his own but I can’t help missing Keith, even when I sense he must be around somewhere.
“Angie” will inevitably be the most durable and well-loved song on the album. There are several reasons for its significance: a vocal of practically unprecedented conviction by Jagger, the lovely interplay of strings and single electric guitar that dramatizes the romantic core of the song, and a consummate piano performance by Nicky Hopkins. But the key is in the tune itself, as emotionally complex as it is lyrically straightforward.
It contrasts the traditional view of romance (and its mystical principal of adoration), with the more recently conceived notion of pragmatism in relationships. The singer has a simultaneous and irreconcilable investment in both values, and they’re at war within him. Haunted by Angie’s image, he tells the mystic in him that the conditions for romance are still present. But reason patiently answers that despite their efforts, it won’t work. It wins the struggle, but every so often the voice burns through the velvet lining.
The singer’s lingering belief in mystery is manifested in brief moments of passion and in a sense of guilt that can’t be rationalized. Thus, all his statements seem to come out questions and he asks them as much of himself as of Angie. The one stand he takes is shaky, indeed: “They can’t say we never tried,” is inevitably followed by the understood “Can they?”
The song’s depth of feeling is enhanced by a barely audible second vocal that may have been a reference track they couldn’t get rid of or purely intentional. It seems to come from a great void completely cut off from the rest of the song. The sense of separation it so subtly suggests is a perfectly apt comment on the theme. And every facet of the song is like that, making it one of the most completely satisfying of all Rolling Stones performances.
Side two begins modestly with “Silver Train,” a rock & roll song with a pre-rock flavor. The Stones’ approach is like their treatment of “Stop Breaking Down,” one of Exile‘s sleepers: lots of whiny slide guitar and harp. They also emphasize, with their ragged ensemble shouts, the song’s appealing chorus. “Train” is the best of the album’s secondary songs.
“Hide Your Love,” dominated by Jagger’s crude piano and blackest vocal, continues the rustic blues flavor of “Train.” It is the descendant of “Prodigal Son” and “You’ve Gotta Move,” while “Winter” is the offspring of the incandescent “Moonlight Mile,” although it seems also influenced by Van Morrison’s “Listen to the Lion” and “Almost Independence Day.” Morrison’s ideas are in evidence in Jagger’s vocal, which moves from a reading of patterned verses into improvisations. As he sings, the Oriental-styled guitar of “Moonlight” and an elegant string section swirl around him. And as Mick finds the crucial line to climax the piece with — “I’m gonna wrap my coat around you” — the surrounding track is blowing fierce, icy winds right across him.
After “Can You Hear the Music?,” a philosophical song that expresses a belief in the mystical power of music from the Pipes of Pan right up to rock & roll, comes the fabulous “Star Star” as if to prove the point of its predecessor. “@#$%&”‘s surface nastiness is belied by the sheer exultation with which it’s played. The hallowed Chuck Berry riffs have never sounded fresher or more energetic. And those unswerving drums, ringing guitars and straining voices are all daring us to try and keep from moving to the music.
There are too many secondary songs on Goats Head Soup to rate it an ultimate Rolling Stones album. The content-defying title expresses the group’s uncertainty about its performance. But those three great ballads place the album among their most intimate and emotionally absorbing work. At the same time, “@#$%&” maintains the stature of the Stones as grand masters of the rock & roll song. If they’ve played it safe this time, their caution has nevertheless reaped some rewards. Soup stands right next to Mott, the thematically similar LP of the Stones’ brightest students, as the best album of 1973. For me, its deepening and unfolding over the coming months will no doubt rate as one of the year’s richest musical experiences.
History has proven it unwise to jump to conclusions about Rolling Stones albums. At first Sticky Fingers seemed merely a statement of doper hipness on which the Stones (in Greil Marcus’ elegant phrase) “rattled drugs as if they were maracas.” But drugs wound up serving a figurative as well as a literal purpose and the album became broader and more ambiguous with each repeated listening.
At first, Exile on Main Street seemed a terrible disappointment, with its murky, mindless mixes and concentration on the trivial. Over time, it emerged as a masterful study in poetic vulgarity. And if neither of the albums had eventually grown on me thematically, the music would have finally won me over anyway.
Now Goats Head Soup stands as the antithesis of Exile — the Stones never worry about contradicting themselves — and it is a wise move, for it would have been suicidal to Exile‘s conceits any further. Compared to the piling on of one raunchy number on top of another, Soup is a romantic work, with an unmistakable thread of life-affirming pragmatisms running through it. It is set apart not only from Exile, but every past Stones’ LP, by its emphasis on the ballad. Its three key songs — “Angie,” “Comin’ Down Again,” and “Winter” — are suffused with melancholy. But of the five rockers, only “Star Star” (“@#$%&”) rings out with classic Stones sass. The others exist either more as changes of pace or as commentary on the album’s larger mood, rather than as autonomous works.
And yet for all its differences, Soup sustains some significant continuities with its immediate predecessors. With all its rocker energy, it was the personal, subjective songs on Sticky Fingers, like “Wild Horses” and “Moonlight Mile,” that finally lingered in my mind. And for all its thunder, Exile contained in whatever lyrics were audible, a very personal sense of weariness and confusion. “Tumbling Dice,” “Let It Loose” and “Torn and Frayed” were sung with such pent-up emotion that their powerful band tracks flew outward from the vocal, as if the direct result of inspiration drawn from it.
As usual, on Soup the Stones continue to work within existing frameworks, redefining and personalizing everything they touch. In this case, they make brilliant use of the styles of some proteges — Van Morrison on “Winter” and Gram Parsons on “Comin’ Down Again” — while picking up a few things from groups as disparate as the Allman Brothers Band and War. The string arrangements are again close in texture to Elton John’s. But they use all of their influences in a fashion superior to the current recordings of their originators. Other artists have built careers on modes the Stones have kicked away without a backward look.
The Stones succeed because they rarely forget their purpose — the creation of rock & roll drama. It is for that reason that they can move from the snow-white Americana of “Comin’ Down Again” into the urban R&B of “Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker)” without the batting of an eyelash — theirs or ours. When they are uncertain of their purpose — as on “Dancin’ With Mr. D.” — they can be hopelessly silly. That track is the weakest opener ever so positioned on one of their albums, and they’ve never performed with less conviction.
But it is strictly one of a kind, for after it Soup emerges as a consistent piece of work, even if its classic moments are confined to four songs. “100 Years Ago” is the album’s real introduction and contains in equal portions the two basic strains of the album: the churning, repetitive R&B of the fast songs and the solemn melancholy of the ballads. In the song’s linear structure, each element is consecutively isolated and focused on. The strains, like the album’s songs, coexist without blending. The R&B eventually suggests violence and irrationality while the slow music suggests reason and vulnerability. In the process of juxtaposing opposites, the Stones make a partly practical and partly moral choice — one of survival over dissipation.
The first ballad, “Comin’ Down Again,” is closely related to “Wild Horses,” from Keith’s frayed but loving vocal to the Burritos-related broad metaphor at its center:
Comin’ down again (sky fallin’ down again)
Comin’ down again (sky fallin’ down again)
Where are all my friends?
Comin’ down again,
On the ground again.
If there’s a moment on the album in which sadness outweighs hope, it’s in Keith’s voice. This feeling, combined with the fact that his distinctive rhythm guitar — one of the seven wonders of rock & roll — is subdued, disguised or inaudible through much of the album, makes me uneasy.
Between “Comin’ Down Again” and “Angie” sits “Doo Doo Doo Doo (Heartbreaker),” a broadly drawn third-person narrative in dramatic juxtaposition to the songs surrounding it. It relates an incident of big-city violence hardly uncommon in the real world, but jarring in this context. It works as both thematic and stylistic counterpoint. The agony resulting from a failed love relationship is still ultimately affirmative, and it’s relatively easy to bear compared to the agony incurred by some random violent act emanating from a stranger.
There is a crucial substitution of vocal chorus for horn parts (although the latter are used in a different context) that is both an explicit rejection of Exile‘s mode and an attempt on the album’s fiercest song to rehumanize the band through the substitution of voice for the mechanical force of instruments. As on several of the other fast songs, the lead is a Leslie-amplified wah-wah guitar (no track credits are offered — is it Mick Taylor?) that sounds both unearthly and more contemporary than classic Stones style and puts new stress on Mick T. He’s not yet the master Richard is, but he can play in the traditional Stones manner (“Sway”) and add a powerful new dimension to it (his solos on “Love in Vain” and “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” during the band’s ’72 concerts). On Soup, he relies more on discipline than imagination, except for his exquisite solo on “Winter.” He is obviously coming into his own but I can’t help missing Keith, even when I sense he must be around somewhere.
“Angie” will inevitably be the most durable and well-loved song on the album. There are several reasons for its significance: a vocal of practically unprecedented conviction by Jagger, the lovely interplay of strings and single electric guitar that dramatizes the romantic core of the song, and a consummate piano performance by Nicky Hopkins. But the key is in the tune itself, as emotionally complex as it is lyrically straightforward.
It contrasts the traditional view of romance (and its mystical principal of adoration), with the more recently conceived notion of pragmatism in relationships. The singer has a simultaneous and irreconcilable investment in both values, and they’re at war within him. Haunted by Angie’s image, he tells the mystic in him that the conditions for romance are still present. But reason patiently answers that despite their efforts, it won’t work. It wins the struggle, but every so often the voice burns through the velvet lining.
The singer’s lingering belief in mystery is manifested in brief moments of passion and in a sense of guilt that can’t be rationalized. Thus, all his statements seem to come out questions and he asks them as much of himself as of Angie. The one stand he takes is shaky, indeed: “They can’t say we never tried,” is inevitably followed by the understood “Can they?”
The song’s depth of feeling is enhanced by a barely audible second vocal that may have been a reference track they couldn’t get rid of or purely intentional. It seems to come from a great void completely cut off from the rest of the song. The sense of separation it so subtly suggests is a perfectly apt comment on the theme. And every facet of the song is like that, making it one of the most completely satisfying of all Rolling Stones performances.
Side two begins modestly with “Silver Train,” a rock & roll song with a pre-rock flavor. The Stones’ approach is like their treatment of “Stop Breaking Down,” one of Exile‘s sleepers: lots of whiny slide guitar and harp. They also emphasize, with their ragged ensemble shouts, the song’s appealing chorus. “Train” is the best of the album’s secondary songs.
“Hide Your Love,” dominated by Jagger’s crude piano and blackest vocal, continues the rustic blues flavor of “Train.” It is the descendant of “Prodigal Son” and “You’ve Gotta Move,” while “Winter” is the offspring of the incandescent “Moonlight Mile,” although it seems also influenced by Van Morrison’s “Listen to the Lion” and “Almost Independence Day.” Morrison’s ideas are in evidence in Jagger’s vocal, which moves from a reading of patterned verses into improvisations. As he sings, the Oriental-styled guitar of “Moonlight” and an elegant string section swirl around him. And as Mick finds the crucial line to climax the piece with — “I’m gonna wrap my coat around you” — the surrounding track is blowing fierce, icy winds right across him.
After “Can You Hear the Music?,” a philosophical song that expresses a belief in the mystical power of music from the Pipes of Pan right up to rock & roll, comes the fabulous “Star Star” as if to prove the point of its predecessor. “@#$%&”‘s surface nastiness is belied by the sheer exultation with which it’s played. The hallowed Chuck Berry riffs have never sounded fresher or more energetic. And those unswerving drums, ringing guitars and straining voices are all daring us to try and keep from moving to the music.
There are too many secondary songs on Goats Head Soup to rate it an ultimate Rolling Stones album. The content-defying title expresses the group’s uncertainty about its performance. But those three great ballads place the album among their most intimate and emotionally absorbing work. At the same time, “@#$%&” maintains the stature of the Stones as grand masters of the rock & roll song. If they’ve played it safe this time, their caution has nevertheless reaped some rewards. Soup stands right next to Mott, the thematically similar LP of the Stones’ brightest students, as the best album of 1973. For me, its deepening and unfolding over the coming months will no doubt rate as one of the year’s richest musical experiences.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
jbwelda
()
Date: February 11, 2020 03:58
Fool To Cry = prototypical Emotional Rescue. And it pretty much had that effect on me back when it was released.
I quite like most of the rest though, not a great album judging by their prior output, but like said, oh we would love to get something like this now.
I particularly like Hide Your Love...didn't do much for me back in the day but now I love its lazy piano blues.
jb
I quite like most of the rest though, not a great album judging by their prior output, but like said, oh we would love to get something like this now.
I particularly like Hide Your Love...didn't do much for me back in the day but now I love its lazy piano blues.
jb
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
bitusa2012
()
Date: February 11, 2020 05:04
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Are Sticky Fingers and Exile «full of a bunch of rock songs»?
Of course not. Those album's strengths are within their musical variation.
Exile wouldn't be the same without:
Sweet Virginia
Torn And Frayed
Sweet Black Angel
Loving Cup
Let It Loose
I Just Wanna See His Face
Shine A Light
Shake Your Hips
Sticky Fingers wouldn't be the same without:
Wild Horses
You Gotta Move
I Got The Blues
Sister Morphine
Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
And Rocky, what is the connection between Blood Red Wine and Winter? I've never been able to hear it.
This is PRECISELY why I love them so much and WHY THEY ARE the World's greatest (EVER) Rock and Roll band.
On each album we get a huge variety of tracks in rock, blues, country, funk, soppy ballads and even gospel, soul and latin influenced stuff. And they (seem to) do it so effortlessly as though each genre is THE genre they 'specialise' in.
If each album was JUST rock, they'd almost be Aerosmith (heaven forbid).
If each album was just ballads, they'd be, who, Air Supply ;-)
If each album was just country, they'd be the Byrds
etc
But they ARE The Rolling Stones, and they live in each genre.
Rod
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-11 05:16 by bitusa2012.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
VoodooLounge13
()
Date: February 11, 2020 06:14
Quote
24FPS
GHS is nowhere near being 'one of their three greatest albums'. That's why everyone was let down. GHS followed four of their greatest studio albums, and their greatest live album. It's got a real uneven mix. (Don't know if they can fix that). There are a few great songs, but a few clunkers too, or ones that simply don't rise to the Golden Age Stones level.
I would love to hear bonus tracks, along the lines of the EOMS and SG projects. Just hearing the real Stones rhythm section is a treat for me. Which is why I love Plundered My Soul, and So Young. (Though I understand that was issued earlier?) The studio Stones ended over three decades now. Steel Wheels was their swan song. All that's left is to see what's still in the vault.
Funny I never used to like GHS either but it grew on me and now I think it’s a fantastic album, especially during the colder winter months for some reason. IORT is the one that I really find to be the weakest of this time period.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 11, 2020 06:19
Quote
jbwelda
Fool To Cry = prototypical Emotional Rescue.
jb
Do you mean "Angie?"
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: February 11, 2020 07:02
Quote
Rocky DijonQuote
jbwelda
Fool To Cry = prototypical Emotional Rescue.
jb
Do you mean "Angie?"
Maybe he thought FTC was on GHS? Does he mean that because of the Mick falsetto?
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
jbwelda
()
Date: February 11, 2020 07:35
Oops, sorry, yes you are right I was confusing it with Black and Blue. Senior moment.
Yeah because of the falsetto but also because of the, don't know what to call it actually, the center section of the song where he starts talking to the subject. Or using a funny accent. I think the songs have a common structure in that and also I find them all kind of embarrassing to listen to. Not Fool to Cry so much these days but the other two certainly; Fool to Cry has sort of grown on me over the years.
Plus, back then, I expected all those rock and roll sort of songs on a Stones record. GHS sort of dragged in places, seemed to me. Very heavy drug vibe to it. But I grew to really like it over the years.
Anyway wind out of my sails from mistaking it for being on GHS.
I actually like Angie quite a bit although back in the day I didn't so much. I like a lot of the ballads if that's what you would call Angie. I actually think it is one of Micks best vocals, and I liked the early live versions just as much or more than the studio cut.
jb
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-11 07:53 by jbwelda.
Yeah because of the falsetto but also because of the, don't know what to call it actually, the center section of the song where he starts talking to the subject. Or using a funny accent. I think the songs have a common structure in that and also I find them all kind of embarrassing to listen to. Not Fool to Cry so much these days but the other two certainly; Fool to Cry has sort of grown on me over the years.
Plus, back then, I expected all those rock and roll sort of songs on a Stones record. GHS sort of dragged in places, seemed to me. Very heavy drug vibe to it. But I grew to really like it over the years.
Anyway wind out of my sails from mistaking it for being on GHS.
I actually like Angie quite a bit although back in the day I didn't so much. I like a lot of the ballads if that's what you would call Angie. I actually think it is one of Micks best vocals, and I liked the early live versions just as much or more than the studio cut.
jb
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-11 07:53 by jbwelda.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: February 11, 2020 07:43
Always loved Angie …. never waned …
… and ace-cool that's its a Keith song ...
ROCKMAN
… and ace-cool that's its a Keith song ...
ROCKMAN
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: February 11, 2020 09:29
Thanks for the pictures exilestones, your posts are always a highlight.
It makes me cringe seeing Paul Rogers there because I know they were putting Bad
Company together and had asked Mick Taylor to join.
For those of you too young, Bad Company put out their debut album in 74 and they owned that entire year.
You couldn’t go anywhere and not hear that album playing at parties, bars, the radio..and they were a scrappy damn good blues/ rock band and they didn’t fck around.
I saw them live and Those guys could flat out play, that record must have sold millions.with Boz, Simon Kirke ,Mick Ralphs AND Mick Taylor? Oh Mick ...dude.
“Nobody wanted to work in 74 so the damn Bad Company walked off with everything “-Keith Richards.
It makes me cringe seeing Paul Rogers there because I know they were putting Bad
Company together and had asked Mick Taylor to join.
For those of you too young, Bad Company put out their debut album in 74 and they owned that entire year.
You couldn’t go anywhere and not hear that album playing at parties, bars, the radio..and they were a scrappy damn good blues/ rock band and they didn’t fck around.
I saw them live and Those guys could flat out play, that record must have sold millions.with Boz, Simon Kirke ,Mick Ralphs AND Mick Taylor? Oh Mick ...dude.
“Nobody wanted to work in 74 so the damn Bad Company walked off with everything “-Keith Richards.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
Taylor1
()
Date: February 11, 2020 13:03
I think Goats Head soup is a very good album with some great songs like 100 years ago heartbreaker,winter,Angie,coming down again,silver train.But the production is bad.The guitars are the worst sounding of any album. On some songs like heartbreaker,can you hear the music ,silver train,the guitars are way too low in the mix and the keyboards and percussion are way too high.On Angie,the acoustic guitars sound muffled .OnCan You hear the music you can’t hear Taylor’s guitar very well.On100 years ago he plays a great solo which is too low in the mix. Even on the tracks like hide your love where the guitar is up in the mix the guitar tone doesn’t sound strong
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 11, 2020 13:44
Quote
Taylor1
I think Goats Head soup is a very good album with some great songs like 100 years ago heartbreaker,winter,Angie,coming down again,silver train.But the production is bad.The guitars are the worst sounding of any album. On some songs like heartbreaker,can you hear the music ,silver train,the guitars are way too low in the mix and the keyboards and percussion are way too high.On Angie,the acoustic guitars sound muffled .OnCan You hear the music you can’t hear Taylor’s guitar very well.On100 years ago he plays a great solo which is too low in the mix. Even on the tracks like hide your love where the guitar is up in the mix the guitar tone doesn’t sound strong
The guitar solos on Hide Your Love are coming in from all channels, and they're different in volume. It's indeed a freaky mix - as in not a good one / amateurish.
I agree on GHS being a very good album. The rest of your post, though:
<The guitars are the worst sounding of any album>
Obviously not. Some of the 60s albums are way worse, as is IORR in places.
<On some songs like heartbreaker,can you hear the music ,silver train,the guitars are way too low in the mix and the keyboards and percussion are way too high>
For your liking, you mean? There is only one guitar on Heartbreaker, for instance. How much higher in the mix could it be, without ruining the mix? The point of that mix is to balance the guitar and the clavinet, panned in the left and right channels. With that groundwork, the horns can take up more and more space as the song reaches its crescendo. IMO, that works splendidly. When Taylor takes the solo, he's centered (if memory serves) and set higher in the mix.
The guitars on Can You Hear The Music are super-clear. Keith's wah wah-riff plods along and sets the groove. Taylor's melodic double-guitars are the icing om the cake in the melodic passages. You can't hear them properly? I think they're mixed like that to create a unity, instead of merely a guitar solo. You're listening to a whole band creating magic in those passages. IMO, it's perfect.
Is it Mick's guitar you find too low on Silver Train - the one that starts the song? At least Taylor's slide guitar is loud and clear. Remarkably clear.
<On Angie,the acoustic guitars sound muffled>
Angie is one of those very few perfect Stones-recording. As far as the acoustic guitars go, we can hear every lick they're playing - both Keith's leading guitar and Taylor's 12 string. They're not muddled at all. The only thing that's a little off on Angie is Bill's slightly out of tune bass and some bleeding ghost vocals from earlier takes that we barely can hear.
<On 100 years ago he plays a great solo which is too low in the mix>
It's not a solo per se, as Taylor is adding to Mick's vocal. Turn that more up and the vocals disappear. As much as we wanna listen to a brilliant guitar solo isolated from the band, there is a reason for using those levels.
I'll agree, though on the overall sound of GHS not being very good. The recording made the instruments sound somewhat distant. That also added to the album's mood and dark vibe, though. But personally, I wouldn't criticise the mix, aka the instrument levels.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-11 13:52 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
jp.M
()
Date: February 11, 2020 15:07
.".Star Star Star" is one of their best Rock tracks....!
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
stickyfingers101
()
Date: February 11, 2020 15:11
Quote
abQuote
stickyfingers101Quote
abQuote
bamQuote
doitywoikQuote
jbwelda
Like McCartney needed Lennon to hold back the maudlin vaudevillian tendencies, Jagger needs Richards to rein in his worst instincts.
LOL!
I never fully warmed to GHS. I'd say it's an OK album but not a great one. (Today of course we would be happy if they came up with an album of similar quality...) But the outtakes I heard sound very interesting so I'm hoping there will be a bunch of good ones.
I totally agree.
Until Steel Wheels, I used to think GHS was their worst album, precisely because of the lack of high quality rock songs. Angie as the first single says it all.
Heartbreaker is the bomb.
There are few Stones social commentary songs that I like, and The Doo Doo Song isn't one of them. The opening riff is played on a Clavinet! How awful is that?
not awful...The Bomb
Re: Goats Head Soup Reissue
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 11, 2020 16:16
Quote
liddasQuote
SpudQuote
jbwelda
Why are you folks so down on the bonus tracks from Some Girls and EOMS? I think they are great and I know if they were issued on bootleg, people would be going absolutely nuts over them, especially in the quality they are on the official releases.
What specifically was wrong with the Some Girls set? were not the bonus tracks on a separate disk?
jb
The SG bonus disc for me stands on its own feet as a very good album.
I love it.
What's wrong with it, for some of those "in the know", is that it maybe doesn't have the tracks they thought should be on it, or it had tracks that they though weren't appropriate because they weren't strictly speaking from the SG sessions.
None of that matters to me . It's probably one of my favourite albums...and for me , for an album that you can't buy on vinyl.... that's saying a lot !
Whatever finds it's way onto bonus releases, you'll never please everybody with the content.
To this date I still can't get used to the new vocals over old track formula. They just don't sound right to these ears of mine. Even the best of them, Plundered my Soul, I would rather have had a new recording from scratch rather than that (admittedly good sounding) cut and paste backing track (Wyman lovers forgive me!).
Plundered My Soul would be nowhere near as good as it is if the current Rolling Stones would've recorded it.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Online Users
Guests:
2078
Record Number of Users:
206
on June 1, 2022 23:50
Record Number of Guests:
9627
on January 2, 2024 23:10