After much back and forth emails with Air Tahiti Nui, they FINALLY say they will refund my money. I had to get nasty and send them a bunch of attachments backing my claim (EU legal texts, proof they cancelled their flights, etc.) and had to tell them that I would be sharing our email exchanges with the press, the U.S. DoT, France's DGAC (French civil flights agency or something!), and that any court and/or legal fees I am subjected to would be at THEIR expense and THEIR responsibility.

4 days before they caved in, I went to the DoT website and filled out their form, don't know if this influenced their decision, but I don't regret doing so, takes about 10 minutes to fill out.

Airlines, Sucking in the Twenties!

Bjornulf,
Your post on this whole situation is absolutely spot on. The US is currently in the process of reopening and many states are not following the guidelines recommend by the experts. The result of this will most likely be an increase of cases causing a major setback. We could get lucky and see a vaccine before the end of the year but even if that happens it will take most of 2021 to get everyone vaccinated.
Baseball in the US is currently considering a reduced schedule playing without fans. Football has put out a schedule but no one actually knows if those games will happen at all or be played with no fans in the stadiums. Small concert venues are optimistic that shows will begin in the fall but again that is not guaranteed.
The economy is another story in itself. People are just trying to survive. Buying tickets for a Stones concert anytime in the near future would be impossible for a large percentage of the potential audience. In fact many of those people could really use the money that Ticketmaster is holding for a postponed tour that is never going to happen.
I thank god that I was able to make it to the Miami show since it really could be the last one ever.
Optimistically I am going to believe that the band will all stay healthy and in 2022 we will all be attending the 60th Anniversary Tour.
Until then everyone should stay safe and do whatever you can to help someone that may not be as fortunate as you are.
Lou



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-13 21:53 by lougio.

Quote
FrogSugar
After much back and forth emails with Air Tahiti Nui, they FINALLY say they will refund my money. I had to get nasty and send them a bunch of attachments backing my claim (EU legal texts, proof they cancelled their flights, etc.) and had to tell them that I would be sharing our email exchanges with the press, the U.S. DoT, France's DGAC (French civil flights agency or something!), and that any court and/or legal fees I am subjected to would be at THEIR expense and THEIR responsibility.

4 days before they caved in, I went to the DoT website and filled out their form, don't know if this influenced their decision, but I don't regret doing so, takes about 10 minutes to fill out.

Airlines, Sucking in the Twenties!

Glad you didn't give up!

Some OT ticket info...

Finally got the refund option through TM for the David Lee Roth gig in Vegas I had tix for back on 3-18...

I pulled the plug on those, too, and the email response said they'll review to make sure my purchase was eligible and will process in up to 30 days. Different wording than The Stones option last month, but in accordance with the "new" policy in effect now.

I guess the shows and postponements are still evolving, so the waiting game is needed, although it doesn't help the credit card at all...

Three shows left on my calendar for August and September, but they'll be pushed or pulled, too, without a doubt.

Stay safe, fellow Rockers

Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

You beat me to it, STG! I had to laugh a little at Horn's amazement that the Stones change their setlist every night. He must not read this forum!

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

Is Marty Hom a replacement of Dale Skjerseth or just an addition (Logistics Coordinator)? Looks like rather an addition since Dale Skjerseth was so far the Production Director ....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-14 12:45 by Irix.

Would sound like a different position, based on the job description at least.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-14 12:55 by Topi.

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Thx for the link! This simple quote was good to read:
"We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go? The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon."

Even though we all know the reality, and BV himself has stated quite plainly his thoughts, to read a statement about 'Hey this is really off for awhile' from someone in the camp was something of value personally.

Quote
snoopy2

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Thx for the link! This simple quote was good to read:
"We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go? The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon."

Even though we all know the reality, and BV himself has stated quite plainly his thoughts, to read a statement about 'Hey this is really off for awhile' from someone in the camp was something of value personally.

Glass half empty or half full scenario imo.
Also good to hear someone in the camp thinking Oct/Nov.

The second part of the equation about whether fans will go, will depend on a lot of factors outside of their control obviously.
A big part of that could depend on where and what precautions are in place.

Brings me back to my earlier speculation we may very well see places like Vancouver make the cut first, if not by then, perhaps next spring.
Instant or near instant testing and other measures, make it conceivable that there could be games and concerts in other areas across Canada, not just BC.
(Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, Manitoba)
[www.nytimes.com]

The NHL has approached the Premier of BC about the possibility of utilizing their rinks for potential games for example.
"The NHL is looking for cities with the right facilities, enough hotel spaces and a good track record dealing with COVID-19. B.C. reported just seven new confirmed cases of the virus on Tuesday."

[globalnews.ca]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-14 22:04 by MisterDDDD.

Quote
MisterDDDD
...The second part of the equation about whether fans will go, will depend on a lot of factors outside of their control obviously.
A big part of that could depend on where and what precautions are in place

One of the factors that a lot of us will have to consider is travel medical insurance. We tend to travel outside our home countries for shows. I wouldn’t want to go to any other country unless / until I know that the insurance would cover me if I contracted the virus and had to be hospitalized, or have to hole up somewhere until cleared for travel. Other considerations are... what if you are trying to travel home but have just an ordinary fever? You can’t board a flight, have to find and pay for a hotel for unknown duration. There are a lot of things that we will have to think about in very different terms, I'm afraid. It’s kinda mind boggling to be thinking of Burl’s Creek as The Good Ol’ Days.

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Set list guffaw aside, this is a bit jarring I bet:

I lost out on probably around $400,000 — maybe a little more depending on what else happened after the Stones this year. Tour managing is really the only thing I know how do to and I’m a little old to start learning a new trade so, for me, it’s pretty much a lost year. I’m an independent contractor, as many of the men and women who work in the touring industry are, so I will not be applying for unemployment.

To my knowledge, and I hope someone informs him, he can get unemployment.

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl

Quote
MisterDDDD
...The second part of the equation about whether fans will go, will depend on a lot of factors outside of their control obviously.
A big part of that could depend on where and what precautions are in place

One of the factors that a lot of us will have to consider is travel medical insurance. We tend to travel outside our home countries for shows. I wouldn’t want to go to any other country unless / until I know that the insurance would cover me if I contracted the virus and had to be hospitalized, or have to hole up somewhere until cleared for travel. Other considerations are... what if you are trying to travel home but have just an ordinary fever? You can’t board a flight, have to find and pay for a hotel for unknown duration. There are a lot of things that we will have to think about in very different terms, I'm afraid. It’s kinda mind boggling to be thinking of Burl’s Creek as The Good Ol’ Days.

True enough.
Forget exactly, but believe bv or someone with knowledge has talked about how shows are 80% ish local fans (?)
Not sure if that's accurate, but yeah, us hardcores that like to jump on a plane and travel for them would be impacted.
I'd drive, even across country(s) before flying for a long while.
A smallish 6 or 7 Canadian venues only tour could be feasible perhaps in the fall or next spring though..

Quote
snoopy2

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Thx for the link! This simple quote was good to read:
"We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go? The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon."

Even though we all know the reality, and BV himself has stated quite plainly his thoughts, to read a statement about 'Hey this is really off for awhile' from someone in the camp was something of value personally.

Yeah, it's a true dose of reality from someone on the inside with lots of knowledge regarding the situation, and the fact he's been in discussion with other major tour and production managers says it's not just his opinion.
Not only is there a question if anyone will go to live shows, there's also the question of whether musicians in the high risk category (old age w/previous health issues such as all the Stones) would be willing to take the risk.
Seems the answer to both questions is highly doubtful until there's a vaccination, but recent predictions keep pushing that further in to the future. Not being pessimistic or glass half empty, but simply being realistic based on everything we currently know.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-15 00:41 by Hairball.

I think the bands who will tour first are those that "need to eat" and will go on the road where they can make 25 to 50 cents on the dollar. Bands that have the financial means and are touring out of choice and not necessity (Stones, Roger Waters, Neil Young, Pearl Jam, Dead & Co. etc) will be in no hurry to take the risk when the money isn't there and the risk is higher. What we see playing out with baseball may serve as an example.

[www.tampabay.com]

The owners are all for opening just like Live Nation would be and the lower salary players want to play but the middle to higher salary players just not sure it is worth the risk. Since Major League baseball is pushing forward without fans this is only the "talent" side of the equation. How this goes as well as how it goes with the smaller touring artists will go a long way to determining feasibility.

On a related note just got a cancellation impacting 2021. British Summer Time at Hyde Park initially postponed 2020 to 2021 but now offering refunds and ticketholders will get priority access in the event 2021 happens.

Personally I do hope there are shows as I have lots of postponed tickets, airline credits and a few hundred thousand miles that need to be used.

By the way daspy, I read that experimental show in Arkansas you posted about previously was canceled after all, but they're trying to reschedule it for Monday.... Travis McCready

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Quote
MisterDDDD

Quote
snoopy2

Quote
SomeTorontoGirl
Stones tour manager talks about the effect of COVID-19 on touring.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Thx for the link! This simple quote was good to read:
"We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go? The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon."

Even though we all know the reality, and BV himself has stated quite plainly his thoughts, to read a statement about 'Hey this is really off for awhile' from someone in the camp was something of value personally.

Glass half empty or half full scenario imo.
Also good to hear someone in the camp thinking Oct/Nov.

The second part of the equation about whether fans will go, will depend on a lot of factors outside of their control obviously.
A big part of that could depend on where and what precautions are in place.

I'm going to speculate that the Stones touring this fall will totally depend on if the NFL has teams playing. At this point, half way through May, it seems that the NFL 2020-21 season is still doubtful unless Florida will host all 32 teams.

[sports.yahoo.com]

Quote
Topi
Would sound like a different position, based on the job description at least.

This guy would be replacing Richard Coble, not Dale "Opie" Skjerseth. Coble is very secretive and flies under the radar.

Quote
Hairball

Yeah, it's a true dose of reality from someone on the inside with lots of knowledge regarding the situation, and the fact he's been in discussion with other major tour and production managers says it's not just his opinion.
Not only is there a question if anyone will go to live shows, there's also the question of whether musicians in the high risk category (old age w/previous health issues such as all the Stones) would be willing to take the risk.
Seems the answer to both questions is highly doubtful until there's a vaccination, but recent predictions keep pushing that further in to the future. Not being pessimistic or glass half empty, but simply being realistic based on everything we currently know.

Yeah..we see things similarly as my "half-full half-empty" comment was in reference to the good news that at least they are considering Oct/Nov.

No way the whole tour gets rescheduled, but the optimist in me hopes for a few select locations (Vancouver etc) that could make the cut. But, like you say, it's someone in the know who is stating these things, and for Oct/Nov to be a timeframe they think they could potentially resume touring is the good news of the good news/bad news. Will be interesting to see.

Drive-in concerts could become a thing.
Tough to get big attendance but for bands that want to perform live...

A hassle, but looks like a blast for the relatively small crowd.

Keith Urban - URBAN UNDERGROUND: Drive In

Quote
MisterDDDD

Quote
Hairball

Yeah, it's a true dose of reality from someone on the inside with lots of knowledge regarding the situation, and the fact he's been in discussion with other major tour and production managers says it's not just his opinion.
Not only is there a question if anyone will go to live shows, there's also the question of whether musicians in the high risk category (old age w/previous health issues such as all the Stones) would be willing to take the risk.
Seems the answer to both questions is highly doubtful until there's a vaccination, but recent predictions keep pushing that further in to the future. Not being pessimistic or glass half empty, but simply being realistic based on everything we currently know.

Yeah..we see things similarly as my "half-full half-empty" comment was in reference to the good news that at least they are considering Oct/Nov.

No way the whole tour gets rescheduled, but the optimist in me hopes for a few select locations (Vancouver etc) that could make the cut. But, like you say, it's someone in the know who is stating these things, and for Oct/Nov to be a timeframe they think they could potentially resume touring is the good news of the good news/bad news. Will be interesting to see.

I don't think "They" necessarily meant the Stones were considering Oct/Nov- when the tour manager Hom said "we", the way I understood it is that he was referring to the other managers and the talks they've had.
He says: "I’ve been talking to some of the production managers and tour managers I know, people who work for U2 and Def Leppard. We’re all sitting home, saying, “What are we going to do now?”
He then goes on to say "We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go? The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon".

And I don't think Oct./Nov. was ever seriously considered for the Stones or any of the bands mentioned (U2, Def Leppard) - it was just an arbitrary set of dates he threw out there, because he then goes on to describe the massive hurdles that would have to be cleared for it to be possible: "And when we do resume, do you give the fans a test or take their temperature before they go into the venue? Does a fan have to get there three hours before to get the test? Then there’s the challenge for us on the crew. We live in such close proximity to each other on the road, like the confines of a backstage. We’re with each other 24-7. It’s hard to do social distancing on a 45-foot-long bus with 12 people". I imagine it would be a many times more difficult when you consider the amount of people that are involved with putting together a Stones tour (way more than 12 on a bus), not to mention the tens of thousands of fans.

Anyhow, that's the reality I see, but I guess everyone has their own interpretations of the situation.

As for drive in concerts...do people honk when they want to hear an encore? lol...
Ha, I don't know...the whole idea sounds annoying, and doubt I could ever muster up any enthusiasm to attend something like that.
And imagine the logistical nightmare of getting in and out of the venue with dozens or hundreds, or even thousands of other vehicles...

__________________________________________________

Just found this dated May 1st:

"Drive-In Concerts Are Now a Thing in Denmark" > Rock and Roll

"A stage was erected on the city’s outskirts so that singer-songwriter Mads Langer could perform to an audience in-person instead of via livestream (via Stereogum).
From inside their socially-distanced cars, attendees could turn their FM dials to the designated radio station to hear his set live on air, hence experiencing a concert the way you would a drive-in movie".

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-16 04:12 by Hairball.

Quote
Hairball

Quote
MisterDDDD

Quote
Hairball

Yeah, it's a true dose of reality from someone on the inside with lots of knowledge regarding the situation, and the fact he's been in discussion with other major tour and production managers says it's not just his opinion.
Not only is there a question if anyone will go to live shows, there's also the question of whether musicians in the high risk category (old age w/previous health issues such as all the Stones) would be willing to take the risk.
Seems the answer to both questions is highly doubtful until there's a vaccination, but recent predictions keep pushing that further in to the future. Not being pessimistic or glass half empty, but simply being realistic based on everything we currently know.

Yeah..we see things similarly as my "half-full half-empty" comment was in reference to the good news that at least they are considering Oct/Nov.

No way the whole tour gets rescheduled, but the optimist in me hopes for a few select locations (Vancouver etc) that could make the cut. But, like you say, it's someone in the know who is stating these things, and for Oct/Nov to be a timeframe they think they could potentially resume touring is the good news of the good news/bad news. Will be interesting to see.

I don't think "They" necessarily meant the Stones were considering Oct/Nov- when the tour manager Hom said "we", the way I understood it is that he was referring to the other managers and the talks they've had.
He says: "I’ve been talking to some of the production managers and tour managers I know, people who work for U2 and Def Leppard. We’re all sitting home, saying, “What are we going to do now?”
He then goes on to say "We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go? The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon".

And I don't think Oct./Nov. was ever seriously considered for the Stones or any of the bands mentioned (U2, Def Leppard) - it was just an arbitrary set of dates he threw out there, because he then goes on to describe the massive hurdles that would have to be cleared for it to be possible: "And when we do resume, do you give the fans a test or take their temperature before they go into the venue? Does a fan have to get there three hours before to get the test? Then there’s the challenge for us on the crew. We live in such close proximity to each other on the road, like the confines of a backstage. We’re with each other 24-7. It’s hard to do social distancing on a 45-foot-long bus with 12 people". I imagine it would be a many times more difficult when you consider the amount of people that are involved with putting together a Stones tour (way more than 12 on a bus), not to mention the tens of thousands of fans.

Anyhow, that's the reality I see, but I guess everyone has their own interpretations of the situation.

As for drive in concerts...do people honk when they want to hear an encore? lol...
Ha, I don't know...the whole idea sounds annoying, and doubt I could ever muster up any enthusiasm to attend something like that.
And imagine the logistical nightmare of getting in and out of the venue with dozens or hundreds, or even thousands of other vehicles...

__________________________________________________

Just found this dated May 1st:

"Drive-In Concerts Are Now a Thing in Denmark" > Rock and Roll

"A stage was erected on the city’s outskirts so that singer-songwriter Mads Langer could perform to an audience in-person instead of via livestream (via Stereogum).
From inside their socially-distanced cars, attendees could turn their FM dials to the designated radio station to hear his set live on air, hence experiencing a concert the way you would a drive-in movie".

Either way, a generic or more specific "we" was good to hear as serious considerations for the fall. If and when infection rates get down to a low rate as expected there may be a window before an anticipated second wave, who knows if/when. A lot has changed since the postponement, little doubt it was on the option list, who knows now.

Drive-in thing looks fun, and a little nostalgic, but would have to be a lesser known band or a "pop up" like Urban did on the down low for it to work.

I still don't interpret what he said as "serious considerations for the fall"...again they were just two months mentioned amongst he and his colleagues, and the notion was immediately shot down due to the insane amount of hurdles that would have had to have been met. That said, I suppose it could have been briefly mentioned around the initial postponement when everyone was scrambling- before the sh*t hit the fan so to speak. But to think there might be a window between the first wave and the second wave where they'll squeeze in some shows...I just don't think that's being realistic. If it were to happen (BIG IF imo), no doubt those shows would contribute to the second wave, and who wants to take that risk? And would insurance companies approve of the shows? What about all the lawyers anxious to file lawsuits against stadiums because their client contacted coronavirus while attending a show there? They can take all the temperatures of as many attendees they want prior to allowing them entrance, but that doesn't guarantee anything.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

I guess "either way" didn't take

"We could start doing shows in October or November, but the big question is, will anyone want to go?" seems pretty obvious serious thought has gone into it, regardless of his or others clients, and he believes "we" (collectively) could do shows in the fall.
Don't think he pulled that time frame out of his.. Seems pretty self explanatory.
Either way (part 2) I'm not saying it's now feasible or likely, but clearly that is something he believed.

Either way, I don't think so. Seemed like a random/arbitrary thought saying "Oct/Nov", followed by a rhetorical question "will anyone want to go?" as he/they already knew the answer was a big reality check saying "The reality is that no one is going to buy tickets for anything anytime soon", and it's something I don't think he/they ever believed was possible considering all of the circumstances both then and now. If anything, it was more like they were brainstorming the possibilities, grasping at straws, making wild guesses, and then reality hit.

Again, that's the way I interpret the story and see the reality, but others like yourself see it some other way.

That being said, I wouldn't expect any surprise announcement for any rescheduled shows any time soon, and based on what bv has posted, to think otherwise might be hoping for a bit too much while living with false hope.

"They will not tour until 2022 at the earliest. That is my best prediction". - Bjornulf

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-16 06:47 by Hairball.

2022 already flashed through my mind some two months ago. Like bv and other mentioned, I can't imagine large numbers of "light" fans will show up at any major concert of any major band or artist as long as a reliable vaccin is not solidly available ... and applied.
DieHards will find ways to go, but their numbers will by far not be enough to make those concerts feasable.
And then the band members themselves ... not vaccinated they will be in great danger simply because they have to deal with all those "other" people backstage and in hotels and cars.
No, I have already settled for 2022. But having said that .... miracles sometimes happen.

Does anyone remember a thread from May of 2015 regarding called Private Stones Show Poll? [iorr.org]

Not trying to wake up a sleeping thread but the idea behind the question was how much IORRians would be willing to pay for a small venue/limited crowd size show.

What if touring did stop because of the virus? Maybe the concept of this five year old thread has legs. A private show in a very controlled setting - the band has adequate protection from the guests, the guests must have documentation proving negative for the virus or proof of vaccination (if vaccine is available). Of course there would be a ton of things to figure out.

If it was a one time deal, a final live event, limited to 5,000 people at 5k each....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-05-17 02:42 by cmc.

Quote
cmc
Does anyone remember a thread from May of 2015 regarding called Private Stones Show Poll? [iorr.org]

Not trying to wake up a sleeping thread but the idea behind the question was how much IORRians would be willing to pay for a small venue/limited crowd size show.

What if touring did stop because of the virus? Maybe the concept of this five year old thread has legs. A private show in a very controlled setting - the band has adequate protection from the guests, the guests must have documentation proving negative for the virus or proof of vaccination (if vaccine is available). Of course there would be a ton of things to figure out.

If it was a one time deal, a final live event, limited to 5,000 people at 5k each....

5,000 people would not change the risk parameters of a 50,000 person venue. If it was 300 people, maybe. I'd pay $5k to be one of 300, not one of 5,000.

Private show for five thousand people, on the west coast of USA, for five grand?

Screw the grandkids, I am in. And if the ride became available a second time, I would be back in line.

jb

Quote
georgie48
2022 already flashed through my mind some two months ago. Like bv and other mentioned, I can't imagine large numbers of "light" fans will show up at any major concert of any major band or artist as long as a reliable vaccin is not solidly available ... and applied.
DieHards will find ways to go, but their numbers will by far not be enough to make those concerts feasable.
And then the band members themselves ... not vaccinated they will be in great danger simply because they have to deal with all those "other" people backstage and in hotels and cars.
No, I have already settled for 2022. But having said that .... miracles sometimes happen.

Yeah georgie, miracles sometimes happen, but in the case of the Stones it will be a miracle if we see them even in 2022.

To paraphrase bv:

Worst case scenario - Miami '19 was the last show ever.
Best case scenario - 2022 at the earliest if we're very lucky.

On the bright side, 2022 is only about 20 months away from now.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......