Tell Me :
Talk
This isn't a thread about you. No one attacked you. No one took your rights away. There is some good dialogue about the story itself or the bigger social issues. There is some great conversation if you love The Carpenters. Try and let it go and talk about something other than how much I irritate you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 13:43 by Rocky Dijon.
RDC was born in 1961 and she said this alleged incident occurred in 1977 so it's hard to say if she was actually 15 or 16. Not that it matters much. Nothing psychopathic about Mick's behavior. There was no force or violence or coercion here. Just two people having a groovy time together with no one getting hurt.
I think it's safe to say if any of her story is to be believed she knew how old she was at the time, that's a landmark surely, give her some credit. I don't think anyone has said it was psychopathic behaviour on Mick's part, not sure where you picked that up from.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 14:44 by TornAndFried.
Yeah thanks for pointing that out, but really it's just name calling for the articulate, turns the table on anyone who sees things from a different perspective.
If people have children or Grandchildren that age it's human nature to pull a situation towards their personal emotions on that subject. It's called imagination, it's not sociopathic, it's the opposite, it's empathy, put yourself in the position of being a parent to teenage daughters. I don't know any caring parent that would be happy if some guy in his 30's was having sex with their 15 year old daughter, it's a taboo, where i live a guy would be looked upon with suspicion in that situation.
This is wild...I was also in Grade 5... in '75, and we also sang that song several times in class.
The age of consent in Brazil is 14.
The only higher power is tEh InTeRnEtZ.
That's weak. Typical knee jerk.
But the bit about an opinion - I only say that when I'm right, I don't convince people with a lie that they're wrong. Besides, opinions can be wrong, that's just a fact. A fact that some people just can't seem to understand for some inane dumb stupid reason.
That aside, you're just being a ignorant little rant that is saying stupid shit for the sake of saying it. Your little grapes and cheese about Rocky is beyond convoluted. Your complaining is very current, based in headline reading ignorance,refuses to read the article, so heavily based in your own I'M RIGHT that you're your own trend, with your butthurt flag people waving and whining about things like "about people that didn't approve are preaching, attempting to convert people and should go elsewhere" is one of the dumbest things I've read in quite some time.
Metallica made 2 records a while ago, called LOAD and RELOAD. Did you like them?
No, her show is just ignorant baseless opinion.
So now you get why I said what I said.
I was being specifically less specific.
This map shows legal age of consent for heterosexual sex in various countries.
Scroll down and click on the thumbnail map for the key. [en.wikipedia.org]
A lot of the world, China, South America and big swathes of Europe seem to think 14 is ok............
I read that in South American the indigenous people tend to have their girls married and bearing children as soon as they are physically able - ie. 13 + ....with the full support, emotionally and practically of the a large extended family, ie. the rest of the tribe.........so......
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 19:08 by EddieByword.
That last bit I agree with, except I'd say fame is intimidating and overwhelming to most people.
Well there's a question grounded in reality. When you were fifteen, were you a teenager or a child? Since most teenagers are sexually active with other teenagers does that strike you as different than say nine year olds acting the same way?
My bad, it's 14 in a lot of Europe + China and most of South America - I read the key wrong.........
Italy has a close-in-age exception that allows those aged 13 to engage in sexual activity with partners who are under the age of 18, provided that the age gap between them is less than 3 years. .... [en.wikipedia.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 19:13 by EddieByword.
You're damn lucky you didn't have to sing it every single morning. I mean really, I liked the song, but come on...it was a weird ritual - was she trying to brainwash us?
Coincidentally, our teacher's name was Mrs. JOY, and she was filled with joy and laughter...
...and clearly a major loony also. lol...
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Kinda like what you say.... I can do this all day GasLighter.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
MichaelLassen
()
Date: February 4, 2020 13:28
Let's begun with dealing with facts shall we, anything else can be regarded as some type of sociopathic behavior at best...
We don't have a victim in this thing, unless we decide to superimpose our values on other peoples lives, results and values. Age of concent is not written in stone... it's regarded very differently in many countries.
And that HAS to be a sign that this is a grey area at best, since no sane person in the world should believe that the US has moral superiority over the rest of the world, let alone when their individual states dissagree on the subject at hand...
We have a women who as a 15 year old (almost 16 if she is to be believed) who decides to share an empowering experience she had with Mick Jagger.
She could have easily milked this if she wanted and gotten sympathy and way more attention if she wanted to and there would be ZERO things Mick could do about it. This isn't happening. She was happy with what happened.
So anyone trying to know better on her behalf... go and check up sources on mindreading, sociopathic behavior and so on.
THIS type of behavior of thinking you know what's best for someone els,e with ZERO evidence, and actually going against evidence is so dangerous for this society it's not even funny. It's tragic and it's a part of the problem, NOT a part of the solution to anything.
This really seems to be a "case" where people can project their own insecurities, lack of moral by thinking they know best for others, let alone judge without evidence. And those types of people with those tendencies have been proven FAR.. FAR more dangerous to this world, than any 33 year old man sleeping with a 15 or 16 year old girl 40+ years ago with no one having any evidence or insight into the situation, except the deemed victim who felt empowered. And the other party (Mick) who obviousy is not spending any amount of time in HIS successful life entertaining the weird thoughts, judgements and lack of morals of people jumping at the chance to feel moraly superior to someone who lived out their own dreams and makes them feel like shit for not having done much with their own sorry lives...
Discusting stuff to read. But very instructional to say the least.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 13:30 by MichaelLassen.
We don't have a victim in this thing, unless we decide to superimpose our values on other peoples lives, results and values. Age of concent is not written in stone... it's regarded very differently in many countries.
And that HAS to be a sign that this is a grey area at best, since no sane person in the world should believe that the US has moral superiority over the rest of the world, let alone when their individual states dissagree on the subject at hand...
We have a women who as a 15 year old (almost 16 if she is to be believed) who decides to share an empowering experience she had with Mick Jagger.
She could have easily milked this if she wanted and gotten sympathy and way more attention if she wanted to and there would be ZERO things Mick could do about it. This isn't happening. She was happy with what happened.
So anyone trying to know better on her behalf... go and check up sources on mindreading, sociopathic behavior and so on.
THIS type of behavior of thinking you know what's best for someone els,e with ZERO evidence, and actually going against evidence is so dangerous for this society it's not even funny. It's tragic and it's a part of the problem, NOT a part of the solution to anything.
This really seems to be a "case" where people can project their own insecurities, lack of moral by thinking they know best for others, let alone judge without evidence. And those types of people with those tendencies have been proven FAR.. FAR more dangerous to this world, than any 33 year old man sleeping with a 15 or 16 year old girl 40+ years ago with no one having any evidence or insight into the situation, except the deemed victim who felt empowered. And the other party (Mick) who obviousy is not spending any amount of time in HIS successful life entertaining the weird thoughts, judgements and lack of morals of people jumping at the chance to feel moraly superior to someone who lived out their own dreams and makes them feel like shit for not having done much with their own sorry lives...
Discusting stuff to read. But very instructional to say the least.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 13:30 by MichaelLassen.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 4, 2020 13:38
Quote
nick
Then "There you go again" Dijon starts chirpin about people that didn't approve are preaching, attempting to convert people and should go elsewhere.
This isn't a thread about you. No one attacked you. No one took your rights away. There is some good dialogue about the story itself or the bigger social issues. There is some great conversation if you love The Carpenters. Try and let it go and talk about something other than how much I irritate you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 13:43 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: February 4, 2020 13:57
MichaelLessen.
You start by saying let's stick to the facts and then turn age 15 into 16.
Then basically a rant about sociopathic behaviour.
I get your point, she was 15 and what's the big deal because of a number if the kid had fun.
But no one is above the law, that's a fact.
You start by saying let's stick to the facts and then turn age 15 into 16.
Then basically a rant about sociopathic behaviour.
I get your point, she was 15 and what's the big deal because of a number if the kid had fun.
But no one is above the law, that's a fact.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
TornAndFried
()
Date: February 4, 2020 14:09
Quote
keithsman
MichaelLessen.
You start by saying let's stick to the facts and then turn age 15 into 16.
Then basically a rant about sociopathic behaviour. I get your point, she was 15 and what's the big deal because of a number if the kid had fun. But no one is above the law, that's a fact.
RDC was born in 1961 and she said this alleged incident occurred in 1977 so it's hard to say if she was actually 15 or 16. Not that it matters much. Nothing psychopathic about Mick's behavior. There was no force or violence or coercion here. Just two people having a groovy time together with no one getting hurt.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
MichaelLassen
()
Date: February 4, 2020 14:12
Not on Micks part no. I'm talking about people heading for judgement on something where there are no facts yet, and no claimed victims (on the contrary). And lot's of speculation involving believing in knowing what's best for other people, contrary to their own experience.
Quote
TornAndFriedQuote
keithsman
MichaelLessen.
You start by saying let's stick to the facts and then turn age 15 into 16.
Then basically a rant about sociopathic behaviour. I get your point, she was 15 and what's the big deal because of a number if the kid had fun. But no one is above the law, that's a fact.
RDC was born in 1961 and she said this alleged incident occurred in 1977 so it's hard to say if she was actually 15 or 16. Not that it matters much. Nothing psychopathic about Mick's behavior. There was no force or violence or coercion here. Just two people having a groovy time together with no one getting hurt.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: February 4, 2020 14:32
Quote
TornAndFriedQuote
keithsman
MichaelLessen.
You start by saying let's stick to the facts and then turn age 15 into 16.
Then basically a rant about sociopathic behaviour. I get your point, she was 15 and what's the big deal because of a number if the kid had fun. But no one is above the law, that's a fact.
RDC was born in 1961 and she said this alleged incident occurred in 1977 so it's hard to say if she was actually 15 or 16. Not that it matters much. Nothing psychopathic about Mick's behavior. There was no force or violence or coercion here. Just two people having a groovy time together with no one getting hurt.
I think it's safe to say if any of her story is to be believed she knew how old she was at the time, that's a landmark surely, give her some credit. I don't think anyone has said it was psychopathic behaviour on Mick's part, not sure where you picked that up from.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
TornAndFried
()
Date: February 4, 2020 14:42
Quote
keithsmanQuote
TornAndFriedQuote
keithsman
MichaelLessen.
You start by saying let's stick to the facts and then turn age 15 into 16.
Then basically a rant about sociopathic behaviour. I get your point, she was 15 and what's the big deal because of a number if the kid had fun. But no one is above the law, that's a fact.
RDC was born in 1961 and she said this alleged incident occurred in 1977 so it's hard to say if she was actually 15 or 16. Not that it matters much. Nothing psychopathic about Mick's behavior. There was no force or violence or coercion here. Just two people having a groovy time together with no one getting hurt.
I think it's safe to say if any of her story is to be believed she knew how old she was at the time, that's a landmark surely, give her some credit. I don't think anyone has said it was psychopathic behaviour on Mick's part, not sure where you picked that up from?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 14:44 by TornAndFried.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
frankotero
()
Date: February 4, 2020 14:45
I think he means the people being judgemental here are displaying "sociopath" behavior. Not Mick.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: February 4, 2020 15:54
Quote
frankotero
I think he means the people being judgemental here are displaying "sociopath" behavior. Not Mick.
Yeah thanks for pointing that out, but really it's just name calling for the articulate, turns the table on anyone who sees things from a different perspective.
If people have children or Grandchildren that age it's human nature to pull a situation towards their personal emotions on that subject. It's called imagination, it's not sociopathic, it's the opposite, it's empathy, put yourself in the position of being a parent to teenage daughters. I don't know any caring parent that would be happy if some guy in his 30's was having sex with their 15 year old daughter, it's a taboo, where i live a guy would be looked upon with suspicion in that situation.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: February 4, 2020 15:56
Ok, this is fairly simple to discus and digest . No matter what time period or civilization or ,or morals or customs or the way it was done way back when . It's just wrong and indefensible . Would anyone who condones or think this is no big deal believe it's okay if it was your daughter or sister or cousin or friend etc. ? This is such a common sense issue on morals and morality . People have to be of a certain age to have the knowledge and wisdom in order to decide for themselves if they want to engage in this type of activity or behavior . We are supposed to be a civilized society ,not behave like there are no laws and just run wild and do whatever floats our boats . Celebrity and wealth still does not excuse criminal behavior. Besides there is a higher power "who will come again to judge the living and the dead "
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: February 4, 2020 16:04
Quote
Hairball
As a ten year old in 5th grade in '73 , our teacher forced our class to sing this song every morning.
She was a true quack of a teacher, but admit I kind of liked the song then and still do now - in fact I liked most Carpenters songs .
This is wild...I was also in Grade 5... in '75, and we also sang that song several times in class.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 4, 2020 16:34
Quote
TheGreek
Ok, this is fairly simple to discus and digest . No matter what time period or civilization or ,or morals or customs or the way it was done way back when . It's just wrong and indefensible . Would anyone who condones or think this is no big deal believe it's okay if it was your daughter or sister or cousin or friend etc. ? This is such a common sense issue on morals and morality . People have to be of a certain age to have the knowledge and wisdom in order to decide for themselves if they want to engage in this type of activity or behavior . We are supposed to be a civilized society ,not behave like there are no laws and just run wild and do whatever floats our boats . Celebrity and wealth still does not excuse criminal behavior. Besides there is a higher power "who will come again to judge the living and the dead "
The age of consent in Brazil is 14.
The only higher power is tEh InTeRnEtZ.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Sighunt
()
Date: February 4, 2020 16:40
Boy this thread is really gaining a lot of traction. Interesting how much the topic is generating lively (LOL) discussion! I originally was going to stay away from it-but what the hell- I may as well throw my two cents into it.
I didn't originally get into the Stones because I thought they were saints. Quite the opposite, as an impressionable teen- I was immediately attracted to them because they were the antithesis of the Beatles- they were dark, menacing, outlaws who pissed wherever and whenever they wanted (LOL)!
I was also (for better or worse) attracted to their perceived decadent lifestyle-sex, drugs, and rock and roll! If you grew up during the 1960's and 1970's and followed this group and their antics-you knew at some level (?) that they were getting it on with many, many women. Maybe you weren't cognizant of the girls' ages- but like the song says: "It's no hanging matter. It's no capital crime."
So if Rae Dawn Chong is making these statements, one can logically conclude that there were probably other under-age girls who were getting it on with the Stones during this time period. My take on it (I am not defending it- but it was probably more accepted behavior among musicians/artists/entertainers with power and influence). However, I can reasonably conclude, that by today's standards-especially with the Me Too Movement in full swing- even a charming and sophisticated personality like Mick Jagger would be scrutinized, ostracized, and potentially facing criminal charges for engaging in sexual relationships with underage girls-end of story.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-05 02:51 by Sighunt.
I didn't originally get into the Stones because I thought they were saints. Quite the opposite, as an impressionable teen- I was immediately attracted to them because they were the antithesis of the Beatles- they were dark, menacing, outlaws who pissed wherever and whenever they wanted (LOL)!
I was also (for better or worse) attracted to their perceived decadent lifestyle-sex, drugs, and rock and roll! If you grew up during the 1960's and 1970's and followed this group and their antics-you knew at some level (?) that they were getting it on with many, many women. Maybe you weren't cognizant of the girls' ages- but like the song says: "It's no hanging matter. It's no capital crime."
So if Rae Dawn Chong is making these statements, one can logically conclude that there were probably other under-age girls who were getting it on with the Stones during this time period. My take on it (I am not defending it- but it was probably more accepted behavior among musicians/artists/entertainers with power and influence). However, I can reasonably conclude, that by today's standards-especially with the Me Too Movement in full swing- even a charming and sophisticated personality like Mick Jagger would be scrutinized, ostracized, and potentially facing criminal charges for engaging in sexual relationships with underage girls-end of story.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-05 02:51 by Sighunt.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 4, 2020 16:53
Quote
nickQuote
GasLightStreet
Are you Tomi Lahren? Kind of sounds like it.
You're beyond assumptive. In a plethora of ways.
How much Tomi Lahren do you watch to make an "assumptive" comment like that? Doesn't she have a political show? We're not gonna go there.
I wasn't even going comment in this thread until Torn and Fried was cool with it as long as it was consensual. Then "There you go again" Dijon starts chirpin about people that didn't approve are preaching, attempting to convert people and should go elsewhere.
Here's assumptive for ya: I fully expect one your classic Gas Light(ing) responses along the lines of "My opinion is right, your's is wrong" as they all are.
That's weak. Typical knee jerk.
But the bit about an opinion - I only say that when I'm right, I don't convince people with a lie that they're wrong. Besides, opinions can be wrong, that's just a fact. A fact that some people just can't seem to understand for some inane dumb stupid reason.
That aside, you're just being a ignorant little rant that is saying stupid shit for the sake of saying it. Your little grapes and cheese about Rocky is beyond convoluted. Your complaining is very current, based in headline reading ignorance,refuses to read the article, so heavily based in your own I'M RIGHT that you're your own trend, with your butthurt flag people waving and whining about things like "about people that didn't approve are preaching, attempting to convert people and should go elsewhere" is one of the dumbest things I've read in quite some time.
Metallica made 2 records a while ago, called LOAD and RELOAD. Did you like them?
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 4, 2020 16:55
Quote
nickQuote
GasLightStreet
Are you Tomi Lahren? Kind of sounds like it.
You're beyond assumptive. In a plethora of ways.
How much Tomi Lahren do you watch to make an "assumptive" comment like that? Doesn't she have a political show? We're not gonna go there.
No, her show is just ignorant baseless opinion.
So now you get why I said what I said.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: February 4, 2020 16:55
Quote
SomeGuyQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
SomeGuyQuote
Rocky DijonQuote
nick
As myself being a person of unsavory character, I was simply expressing that if you need to go to a little girl to get your rocks off then that's your thing and it's not mine. To say I can't express an opinion on it here (and you are) while you can express your opinion defending it is just your typical bloviating
You miss my point which since I apparently talk endlessly in an inflated fashion saying nothing of value (thank you for that) must be my fault.
Try two other viewpoints: We all know Keith was a junkie. That doesn't mean we're okay with people using heroin. We understood that when we became fans unless we're old enough to have been a fan before 1968. We're not scandalized to hear more junkie stories about him.
We all know about Bill and Mandy. That doesn't mean we're okay with underage sex, but we knew "Stray Cat Blues," "Summer Romance," and "So Young" and didn't imagine they were fantasizing. It was part of their lives.
They're outlaws. We don't hold them to society's standards. Sometimes they came close to being held to it by the Establishment, but most of us are glad they didn't do time and got off with wrist slappings. Some of us point out quite fairly that's the privilege of wealth and is unfair, but we didn't want the band broken up in 1967 any more than we did in 1977 or 1986. Whether we like to admit it or not, we're glad they're outlaws who got away with the crime even if we wouldn't be okay if it was us, our friends, our neighbors, our co-workers doing the same thing. It's the same mentality that made gangsters folk heroes. They transgress what we can't and it appeals to us and we try not to think about the consequences for those who were hurt by their actions.
If that's still being long-winded and devoid of meaning, I can't help you. For what it's worth, while I may have responded to your post immediately before mine, I was directing it to the outrage of many, not one. Yes, it was wrong of Mick. No, we shouldn't be surprised. Yes, it was wrong of Keith with Quincy Jones' underage (according to her) daughter. No, we shouldn't be surprised. And on and on. It's what they do. They had the opportunity, the power, and the notoriety to do what would have been unthinkable had they not been stars. We might tell ourselves we wouldn't have made the same terrible mistakes, but we can't honestly know that not having the same circumstances in which to choose.
I strongly disagree with this, Rocky, if I may chime in here.
No, it is not surprising, but no, it is also not something we should appreciate in them, just as gangsters are not folk heroes. The criterium, for me, is about hurting other people. Doing heroin isn't the same as abusing children or murdering people. The 'bad' part of the Stones had everything to do with their rebellious attitude against stupid drug laws, oppressive social standards and conservative bourgeois ways of living in the 50s and 60s, and nothing with hurting people.
Has anyone alive ever said that the Stones have hurt them?
You know, the awful songs aside. Have any of the Stones abused any children or murdered anyone? Times change. It's one thing to go, Oh it's Mick Jagger, of COURSE it's true!
In the 2020 world if enough people choose not to believe it then... it's not true. And in 3 days it will be forgotten.
I think I already said something along those lines earlier.
I was being specifically less specific.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 4, 2020 17:39
The whole reason I post here is the joy of reading phrases like "I was being specifically less specific." It reminds me of the glory days of IORR when whole posts were centered on whether remixing and preorder actually meant anything. May Clapton bless this place.
Since this has turned into the much wider moral-social argument, I'd say the whole judgement of the situation depends on a lot of factors. I'm a Dad (actually I'm a Grandfather, too). The idea of a guy in his thirties or forties or fifties (Hi, Mr. Wyman!) having sex with a 15 year old upsets me.
Telling me a rock star (I don't care if it was Mark Lindsay, Davy Jones, Mick Jagger, Steven Tyler, etc.) had sex with a 15 year old fan doesn't surprise me. The girls adore them and they're attracted to the girls. Just the same as middle-aged men leering at cheerleaders at their son's highschool football games. They're attracted to them. Most men would never act on their attraction, of course. Most men would never have a 15 year old beg to let her show them how much she adores them, either. It doesn't make it right, but it does mean most men will never know how they would react in the same situation.
Next point: people used to die around age 40. It was common to get married at 15 or younger so you had a shot at having a family. Especially when the mortality rate meant a good number of your kids would also die in infancy or early in life.
Next point: in other parts of the world (parts of Africa or the Middle East, for instance), being married at 15 or younger is still socially acceptable.
The viewpoint of "it was always wrong, always will be wrong" doesn't hold up well against those last two examples unless you think the whole world should always have been a First World civilization with health care and access to proper nutrition.
It is understandable to say those dirty rock stars / politicians / actors / directors are scum for their actions. In most examples (if the allegations are true) they're breaking the law and getting away with it because they're wealthy and powerful.
On the podcast, Rae Dawn Chong allegedly said at 15 she slept with Mick, Steve Martin, and Ryan O'Neal. Only Mick made headlines. The difference is I can't imagine that if it were true anyone would be shocked to learn Mick did it. It's almost a non-issue because it's expected.
Wild celebrities party with wild kids of their peers. You can say it's wrong all you like, there is already a precedent for the behavior going back a century (say hi to Charlie Chaplin), it's widespread in elitist circles, and it largely goes unpunished despite clearly violating society's codes of conduct. Unless people walk away from the entertainment world or art world, you won't likely see a change.
Most fans, no matter how offended they are, likely wouldn't want their favorite celebrities to pay the price because it deprives them of the pleasure of their future work and because what doesn't directly impact us doesn't matter as much as the pleasure the artist brings or value the world figure brings. We all compromise all the time. We all have double standards to a degree. I'm not arguing it wasn't wrong, I'm just more cynical about our reactions as fans.
Since this has turned into the much wider moral-social argument, I'd say the whole judgement of the situation depends on a lot of factors. I'm a Dad (actually I'm a Grandfather, too). The idea of a guy in his thirties or forties or fifties (Hi, Mr. Wyman!) having sex with a 15 year old upsets me.
Telling me a rock star (I don't care if it was Mark Lindsay, Davy Jones, Mick Jagger, Steven Tyler, etc.) had sex with a 15 year old fan doesn't surprise me. The girls adore them and they're attracted to the girls. Just the same as middle-aged men leering at cheerleaders at their son's highschool football games. They're attracted to them. Most men would never act on their attraction, of course. Most men would never have a 15 year old beg to let her show them how much she adores them, either. It doesn't make it right, but it does mean most men will never know how they would react in the same situation.
Next point: people used to die around age 40. It was common to get married at 15 or younger so you had a shot at having a family. Especially when the mortality rate meant a good number of your kids would also die in infancy or early in life.
Next point: in other parts of the world (parts of Africa or the Middle East, for instance), being married at 15 or younger is still socially acceptable.
The viewpoint of "it was always wrong, always will be wrong" doesn't hold up well against those last two examples unless you think the whole world should always have been a First World civilization with health care and access to proper nutrition.
It is understandable to say those dirty rock stars / politicians / actors / directors are scum for their actions. In most examples (if the allegations are true) they're breaking the law and getting away with it because they're wealthy and powerful.
On the podcast, Rae Dawn Chong allegedly said at 15 she slept with Mick, Steve Martin, and Ryan O'Neal. Only Mick made headlines. The difference is I can't imagine that if it were true anyone would be shocked to learn Mick did it. It's almost a non-issue because it's expected.
Wild celebrities party with wild kids of their peers. You can say it's wrong all you like, there is already a precedent for the behavior going back a century (say hi to Charlie Chaplin), it's widespread in elitist circles, and it largely goes unpunished despite clearly violating society's codes of conduct. Unless people walk away from the entertainment world or art world, you won't likely see a change.
Most fans, no matter how offended they are, likely wouldn't want their favorite celebrities to pay the price because it deprives them of the pleasure of their future work and because what doesn't directly impact us doesn't matter as much as the pleasure the artist brings or value the world figure brings. We all compromise all the time. We all have double standards to a degree. I'm not arguing it wasn't wrong, I'm just more cynical about our reactions as fans.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: February 4, 2020 17:54
This map shows legal age of consent for heterosexual sex in various countries.
Scroll down and click on the thumbnail map for the key. [en.wikipedia.org]
A lot of the world, China, South America and big swathes of Europe seem to think 14 is ok............
I read that in South American the indigenous people tend to have their girls married and bearing children as soon as they are physically able - ie. 13 + ....with the full support, emotionally and practically of the a large extended family, ie. the rest of the tribe.........so......
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 19:08 by EddieByword.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: February 4, 2020 18:08
I don't think 13 is ok anywhere in Europe.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: February 4, 2020 18:20
Yeah Rocky i hear you, I was looking forward to House Of Cards Series 6 , now I'm denied the pleasure of watching it because Kevin Spacy allegedly turns out to be a sexual predator. It's a tough one to call, justice or entertainment. Are you telling us artists have to be dirty old men to entertain us. I mean you are right to some degree, it does appear that way, but something else is in question here on a deeper level. I mean we don't see women behave that way very often. I don't know what to think, are you saying if the average guy in the street wins the lottery he's going to find the nearest teenager in the vicinity and be fruity and multiply with her, because that's basically what men do. I don't think so. If you said people get into this industry to manipulate situations and the environment around them and hold the power I'd say you are onto something. I mean money keeps people silent and fame is intimidating and overwhelming to young people.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: February 4, 2020 18:34
Interesting to ready so many different points of views.
To put things in contest, here in Italy, the age of consent is 14.
This means that what allegedly happened between Mick and RDC would not be a criminal offence if both sides are consensual.
As a matter of fact when I was 15, it was perfectly normal for girls my age to have affairs with guys 2/3 years older. And it sometime "happened" that 2/3 years older became 10/15 or more.
They used to say, that they were after maturity, We thought, along the lines of our own Vasco Rossi, "it was the car that mattered".
Don't know what happens now, but I have an idea that with all these dating apps, things must be quite the same.
For sure, parties nowadays are quite wild. Kids have extremely easy access to drugs, booze. And porn on internet provides lots of ideas to emulate.
Just to give an idea, last year 3 14 y/o girls were caught "performing oral sex" in favour of schoolmates in change of a recharge of phone account ...
C
To put things in contest, here in Italy, the age of consent is 14.
This means that what allegedly happened between Mick and RDC would not be a criminal offence if both sides are consensual.
As a matter of fact when I was 15, it was perfectly normal for girls my age to have affairs with guys 2/3 years older. And it sometime "happened" that 2/3 years older became 10/15 or more.
They used to say, that they were after maturity, We thought, along the lines of our own Vasco Rossi, "it was the car that mattered".
Don't know what happens now, but I have an idea that with all these dating apps, things must be quite the same.
For sure, parties nowadays are quite wild. Kids have extremely easy access to drugs, booze. And porn on internet provides lots of ideas to emulate.
Just to give an idea, last year 3 14 y/o girls were caught "performing oral sex" in favour of schoolmates in change of a recharge of phone account ...
C
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
sdstonesguy
()
Date: February 4, 2020 18:56
Just want to ensure I get the rules here.
Talking about politics is out.
Debating the merits of child molestation is in.
BV...please confirm.
Talking about politics is out.
Debating the merits of child molestation is in.
BV...please confirm.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:05
Quote
keithsman
Are you telling us artists have to be dirty old men to entertain us?
No, I'm saying we may say certain behavior is morally wrong, but if it doesn't directly impact us, we'll forget about it and go back to enjoying an artist's work or supporting a politician because the benefit we derive means more than the momentary moral dilemma we face - particularly when we know they'll likely get away with it anyway.
I mean we don't see women behave that way very often.
Women in power sometimes behave as badly as men. That includes all the schoolteachers that make the news. Women are just as fallible.
Are you saying if the average guy in the street wins the lottery he's going to find the nearest teenager...because that's basically what men do?
No, I'm saying many grown men (and women) find teenagers sexually attractive. If those teenagers were begging those same adults to let them please them because their teenage hormones were telling them they adored these particular adults, resistance might not be as easy as some of us seem to think. Be grateful people aren't always currying your favor or you might be surprised at how quickly you accept all kinds of things you never would have when you were grounded in reality.
If you said people get into this industry to manipulate situations and the environment around them and hold the power I'd say you are onto something.
I think there are all sorts of reasons people seek fame and power. I suspect a very small percentage are primarily motivated by a desire to manipulate situations. I think of it more as an occupational hazard.
I mean money keeps people silent and fame is intimidating and overwhelming to young people.
That last bit I agree with, except I'd say fame is intimidating and overwhelming to most people.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:08
Quote
sdstonesguy
Just want to ensure I get the rules here.
Talking about politics is out.
Debating the merits of child molestation is in.
BV...please confirm.
Well there's a question grounded in reality. When you were fifteen, were you a teenager or a child? Since most teenagers are sexually active with other teenagers does that strike you as different than say nine year olds acting the same way?
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:13
Quote
SomeGuy
I don't think 13 is ok anywhere in Europe.
My bad, it's 14 in a lot of Europe + China and most of South America - I read the key wrong.........
Italy has a close-in-age exception that allows those aged 13 to engage in sexual activity with partners who are under the age of 18, provided that the age gap between them is less than 3 years. .... [en.wikipedia.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 19:13 by EddieByword.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:16
Hmm... unlike the teller in "Stray Cat Blues", this Jagger guy in reality seemingly didn't see that she's fifteen years old, but equally didn't want her I.D...
They were living dangerous times in 1977 those Rolling Stones. It could have been a fatal year for them. Keith was facing drug charges that could have send a lesser mortal behind the bars for years. Gladly he was a super star with an army of best lawyers around him. And at the same time Mick seemingly was doing stuff that could have send him in a prison as well. Gladly he was a super star above all law and morality, no one knew nothing (or probably care), and him just 'empowering' the lucky girl. Now, that had been a symbolic way to end the story of the most infamous band of all time, both glimmers ending up behind the bars...
When I teach moral philosophy, no, I don't use the Rolling Stones as an example of good behavour... Nor I don't think when Mick or Keith make their decisions of action, they are following Kant's Categorical Imperative there... (especially Keith's been vocal there: 'don't use me as an example'..)
Those guys are nothing but hedonist bastards, who'd been living privileged life for all of their adulthood. Actaully for that they sound incredibly sane, even oddly 'normal' - lesser mortals would have gone totally crazy...
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 19:36 by Doxa.
They were living dangerous times in 1977 those Rolling Stones. It could have been a fatal year for them. Keith was facing drug charges that could have send a lesser mortal behind the bars for years. Gladly he was a super star with an army of best lawyers around him. And at the same time Mick seemingly was doing stuff that could have send him in a prison as well. Gladly he was a super star above all law and morality, no one knew nothing (or probably care), and him just 'empowering' the lucky girl. Now, that had been a symbolic way to end the story of the most infamous band of all time, both glimmers ending up behind the bars...
When I teach moral philosophy, no, I don't use the Rolling Stones as an example of good behavour... Nor I don't think when Mick or Keith make their decisions of action, they are following Kant's Categorical Imperative there... (especially Keith's been vocal there: 'don't use me as an example'..)
Those guys are nothing but hedonist bastards, who'd been living privileged life for all of their adulthood. Actaully for that they sound incredibly sane, even oddly 'normal' - lesser mortals would have gone totally crazy...
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2020-02-04 19:36 by Doxa.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
The Sicilian
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:16
Maybe she's trying to get him to go on the record and make a public comment acknowledging the hookup.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:19
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
Hairball
As a ten year old in 5th grade in '73 , our teacher forced our class to sing this song every morning.
She was a true quack of a teacher, but admit I kind of liked the song then and still do now - in fact I liked most Carpenters songs .
This is wild...I was also in Grade 5... in '75, and we also sang that song several times in class.
You're damn lucky you didn't have to sing it every single morning. I mean really, I liked the song, but come on...it was a weird ritual - was she trying to brainwash us?
Coincidentally, our teacher's name was Mrs. JOY, and she was filled with joy and laughter...
...and clearly a major loony also. lol..._____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:41
She should have made you sing "Joy to the World" (Three Dog Night, not the Christmas carol).
I'm a little younger and had to sing "Top of the World" in grade school as well. It was a seventies thing and it was safe.
I'm a little younger and had to sing "Top of the World" in grade school as well. It was a seventies thing and it was safe.
Re: Mick and Rae Dawn Chong
Posted by:
nick
()
Date: February 4, 2020 19:55
Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
nickQuote
GasLightStreet
Are you Tomi Lahren? Kind of sounds like it.
You're beyond assumptive. In a plethora of ways.
How much Tomi Lahren do you watch to make an "assumptive" comment like that? Doesn't she have a political show? We're not gonna go there.
No, her show is just ignorant baseless opinion.
So now you get why I said what I said.
Kinda like what you say.... I can do this all day GasLighter.
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