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If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: January 6, 2020 00:54

Do you think the main reason in June 1969 that Mick and Keith asked Brian to leave was he could not get a visa to tour in America.If he could have gotten a visa do you think he would have been given an ultimatum to get his act together? or was that impossible because he didn’t really want to be in the band anymore? And did Anita being pregnant play any role in his disinterest in the band

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: January 6, 2020 01:50

I truly think the gig was up - visa or no.

Brian wasn't contributing much musically at that point. Also, substance problems and being an @#$%&. Don't really see how he and Keith could have ever gotten along again.

That said, it is interesting to think of Brian on subsequent tours - 72,75,78,81,etc.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 6, 2020 09:09

How tragic it is, but the fact that Jones was replaced with Taylor gave the Stones new life, and 10 years more. I am sure they would have vanished like 98% of all other 1960's bands without the fresh blood of a hot new young lead guitar player. Same for Ron Wood -they would not have survived the punk years with Taylor, but managed to reinvent themselves with Wood. Part of the Stones longevity is the fact that they changed personnel.

Mathijs

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 6, 2020 09:23

Really. Brian would have contributed what? His little set piece on No Expectations? Keith would have to do all the heavy lifting. You can see on Rock and Roll Circus that they're a quartet at that point. A nice, punkish group, but not the level the soaring Mick Taylor let them go to. And how do you think Brian would have handled the temptations of the road? More coke? More heroin? More booze? The times demanded bands have a guitar virtuoso. Keith was limited to his Chuck Berry bag of tricks. Brian abdicated any advance on playing lead years earlier. He could barely chord along on rhythm at the end.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 6, 2020 12:06

Brian was effectively done being a serious musician by 1969, maybe even 1968. John Mayall has commented in his recent book about being at Cotchford in 1969 and trying to play with Brian. Not a pretty picture at all. Brian's rhythm etc all shot to @#$%&.

The visa thing was a handy excuse to force an end to the long drawn out pain Brian was putting himself and the band through. He didn't have the balls to leave of his own accord so they forced the issue.

...

The virtuoso thing was not a must have, people would love the stones regardless. Keith soloing was unique and cool enough to carry them through that stuff anyway.

There is only what happened though and the greatness of what followed is clear for all to hear.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: January 6, 2020 21:06

Quote
Mathijs
How tragic it is, but the fact that Jones was replaced with Taylor gave the Stones new life, and 10 years more. I am sure they would have vanished like 98% of all other 1960's bands without the fresh blood of a hot new young lead guitar player. Same for Ron Wood -they would not have survived the punk years with Taylor, but managed to reinvent themselves with Wood. Part of the Stones longevity is the fact that they changed personnel.

I mostly agree with you, Mathijs. But I like to add that the Stones grew up in the 60s as a highly flexible band anyway. They delivered a great variety in song genres they recorded. I doubt if discrepancies (like Brian's downfall and Mick T. quitting) would not have occurred, that Mick and Keith would have "forced" change of personnel. It would not have worked with Charlie (don't underestimate his power) and Bill around and Brian's popularity.
The power of adapting to new styles was embedded in the band right from the start. Personally I found the way they dealt with the shock situations that occurred admirable and that made them even stronger.
The visa story was not more than a convenient excuse ... considering Brian's miserable state.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 6, 2020 22:04

Yes, in hindsight the Visa story was a convenient excuse.
Mick was busted for the second time in May 1969 and around 9 months later was found guilty of possession ( I cannot remember the exact details. This didn't seem to impact on his ability to tour late 1969 and then do some recording in the States in 1970.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: vertigojoe ()
Date: January 7, 2020 00:25

If Brian could have gotten an American Visa ...

They'd have had to think of a different excuse for sacking him

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: vertigojoe ()
Date: January 7, 2020 00:25

Brian at Altamont?!?

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: January 7, 2020 00:36

The question of questions: would there have ever been EOMS with Brian instead of Mick T? (Or SF?)

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: January 7, 2020 01:38

Quote
Taylor1
Do you think the main reason in June 1969 that Mick and Keith asked Brian to leave was he could not get a visa to tour in America.

No. Brian already had checked out and was of no more value for the band. Time to move on.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: JordyLicks96 ()
Date: January 7, 2020 01:55

It had nothing to do with the Visa in hindsight. Brian wasn't functioning as a musician and I don't think he had much interest in being a Rolling Stone anymore. It was a giant buildup from early on their career. His attitude of being the band's leader and not able to write songs distanced himself from the rest of the group. It wasn't meant to be. The Stones needed two guitarists for where their music was taking them by the late 60's and Brian wasn't much of a guitarist anymore. He needed to be fired. The Rolling Stones wouldn't have survived in the state Brian was in for much longer, had they not fired him in June 1969.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: January 7, 2020 01:59

Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 7, 2020 08:55

Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Date: January 7, 2020 10:00

Quote
doitywoik
The question of questions: would there have ever been EOMS with Brian instead of Mick T? (Or SF?)

Of course it would.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: January 7, 2020 10:18

Quote
His Majesty
Brian was effectively done being a serious musician by 1969, maybe even 1968. John Mayall has commented in his recent book about being at Cotchford in 1969 and trying to play with Brian. Not a pretty picture at all. Brian's rhythm etc all shot to @#$%&.

The visa thing was a handy excuse to force an end to the long drawn out pain Brian was putting himself and the band through. He didn't have the balls to leave of his own accord so they forced the issue.

...

The virtuoso thing was not a must have, people would love the stones regardless. Keith soloing was unique and cool enough to carry them through that stuff anyway.

There is only what happened though and the greatness of what followed is clear for all to hear.

Sadly...and unlike Keith...Brian wasn't a "functional Junkie" .

Maybe he could have straightened out and come through it ...but we'll never know.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 7, 2020 16:04

Quote
Spud


Sadly...and unlike Keith...Brian wasn't a "functional Junkie" .

Maybe he could have straightened out and come through it ...but we'll never know.

Yeah, Keith kept his playing on point ... Mostly.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: January 7, 2020 16:52

Quote
24FPS
Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.

None of the members of the Stones were ever great. The power of the Stones was/is in the collective. Brian's important contribution (not so much as a guitarist) to the Stones went as far as 1968, which was confirmed by the other band members. He added a lot of color to the Mick/Keith songs. But yes, it became less and less.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: duke richardson ()
Date: January 7, 2020 19:21

Quote
georgie48
Quote
24FPS
Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.

None of the members of the Stones were ever great. The power of the Stones was/is in the collective. Brian's important contribution (not so much as a guitarist) to the Stones went as far as 1968, which was confirmed by the other band members. He added a lot of color to the Mick/Keith songs. But yes, it became less and less.


To me it’s the consistently high quality of the songs , in addition to their collective chemistry. But when you say none of the Stones was ever great I assume you mean as a virtuoso musician.. but I think you’d have to say for sure that Mick Jagger was always a great frontman. not a great singer but nobody is better as a frontman.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: January 7, 2020 20:29

Quote
duke richardson
Quote
georgie48
Quote
24FPS
Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.

None of the members of the Stones were ever great. The power of the Stones was/is in the collective. Brian's important contribution (not so much as a guitarist) to the Stones went as far as 1968, which was confirmed by the other band members. He added a lot of color to the Mick/Keith songs. But yes, it became less and less.


To me it’s the consistently high quality of the songs , in addition to their collective chemistry. But when you say none of the Stones was ever great I assume you mean as a virtuoso musician.. but I think you’d have to say for sure that Mick Jagger was always a great frontman. not a great singer but nobody is better as a frontman.

Yep, I fully agree with you. Mick developed very quickly (seeing James Brown f.i.) into a great entertainer. People like Bowie, Mercury (Queen) and even today's Martin (Coldplay) among others were/are successful pupils of Mick. He showed them the way how to entertain the masses. But to me he's the best!
smileys with beer

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Single Malt ()
Date: January 7, 2020 21:10

IMO, Brian lost interest towards The Stones. He wanted to stay in R&B and such and the rest wanted to move on. But I've always thought that the main issue was the chemistry between him and the rest. If you don't feel comfortable with someone you don't want him/her around. And without Taylor's contribution the 1969-1974 era would have been duller. Brian's era was also great, I don't diss that, and he contributed some great music back then with his slide guitar, harmonica and exotic instruments. But like it has been said, The Stones nicely re-invented the band every now and then - until the nineties came and they stuck to the "Vegas act" time warp. I think that finally happened after Voodoo Lounge tour. Even if I don't like 1989-90 tours that much (backing singers and a bit clean acts etc.) they were still doing something new. Voodoo Lounge tour was also partly great (e.g. starting with surprising Not Fade Away and the rest of the setlist wasn't that warhorsey yet) but you started to see what it would become later. Hopefully they reinvent themselves again and make a new album that would raise some eyebrows...

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Date: January 7, 2020 21:17

They didn't move even a wee bit from R&B with BB, LIB, SF and Exile, though.

And Brian was very proud of JJF/Child Of The Moon.

However, he did complain about the musical direction they were heading towards in a 1968 interview. Was he thinking of the 1966/67-songs? I can't really understand the timing for that statement...

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: January 7, 2020 21:44

Trying to speculate which direction musically Brian might have taken is nigh on impossible. I can think of at least 5 possibles:
1. Moved more into scoring films as he did for A degree of Murder
2. Returned to his Blues roots
3. Be involved in CCR type music (he expressed his liking for such music)
4. Developed his interest in World music...ie further afield than Morocco
5. Produced a Tubular Bells type album ("he could pick up any instrument"
: Keith)

That said his obviously fragile state, physically and mentally would have made any of the above extremely challenging.
Alexis Korner (who I had the pleasure to hear once at an In Person concert, playing his favourite music) was not overly optimistic and he saw him from time to time in the last months of his life.
Brian really needed a Jane Rose type Manager to get him focussed, sadly that never materialised.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: January 8, 2020 01:47

It was only a short period of time that Brianwas playing badly in the Stones,December1968until May 1969.Fromthe bootlegs I’ve heard ,he played fine on the 1967 tour.Marianne Faithful said he played great at the NME 1968 concert..Check out his playing on Ruby Tuesday’s the 1967 tour.And even though he wasn’t fully engaged on Beggar’sBanquet,his guitar onNo Expectaions,mellotron on JigsawPuzzle and Stray CatBlues,and sitar on Street Fighting Man is great.A lot of the opinion of how much he had deteriorated was based on his performance at the Rock n Roll Circus.But evenhis poor performance there can be attributed somewhat to him not going on stage until 300in the morning after doing drugs all day .Moreover ,I think he had lost interest in the band by 1969.But he didn’t lose his abilities as a musician.He could have rehabilitated himself had he lived.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-01-08 04:08 by Taylor1.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: January 8, 2020 01:58

There is only what happened.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 8, 2020 04:16

Quote
Taylor1
It was only a short period of time that Brianwas playing badly in the Stones,December1968until May 1969.Fromthe bootlegs I’ve heard ,he played fine on the 1967 tour.Marianne Faithful said he played great at the NME 1968 concert..Check out his playing on Ruby Tuesday’s the 1967 tour.And even though he wasn’t fully engaged on Beggar’sBanquet,his guitar onNo Expectaions,mellotron on JigsawPuzzle and Stray CatBlues,and sitar on Street Fighting Man is great.A lot of the opinion of how much he had deteriorated was based on his performance at the Rock n Roll Circus.But evenhis poor performance there can be attributed somewhat to him not going on stage until 300in the morning after doing drugs all day .Moreover ,I think he had lost interest in the band by 1969.But he didn’t lose his abilities as a musician.He could have rehabilitated himself had he lived.

Where is Brian's guitar playing 'great' in this period? Keith was forced to do almost all of the guitar work, including rhythm. Yes, 'No Expectations' was the exception to the rule.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: January 8, 2020 04:19

Quote
georgie48
Quote
24FPS
Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.

None of the members of the Stones were ever great. The power of the Stones was/is in the collective. Brian's important contribution (not so much as a guitarist) to the Stones went as far as 1968, which was confirmed by the other band members. He added a lot of color to the Mick/Keith songs. But yes, it became less and less.

No Stones were great? Keith was the greatest Chuck Berry interpreter of all time. Listen to Bill Wyman backing Junior Wells/Buddy Guy/and Muddy Waters at Montreaux in 1974. He's fantastic. Totally different from his Stones playing.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: January 8, 2020 05:09

Quote
24FPS
Quote
georgie48
Quote
24FPS
Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.

None of the members of the Stones were ever great. The power of the Stones was/is in the collective. Brian's important contribution (not so much as a guitarist) to the Stones went as far as 1968, which was confirmed by the other band members. He added a lot of color to the Mick/Keith songs. But yes, it became less and less.

No Stones were great? Keith was the greatest Chuck Berry interpreter of all time. Listen to Bill Wyman backing Junior Wells/Buddy Guy/and Muddy Waters at Montreaux in 1974. He's fantastic. Totally different from his Stones playing.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: January 8, 2020 05:11

Quote
Taylor1
Quote
24FPS
Quote
georgie48
Quote
24FPS
Quote
Taylor1
Well,he was still a young man.If he had cleaned up,maybe in a couple of years he could have contributed musically.Eric Clapton was horrible zombieat The Concert for Bangladesh and played bad,with Jesse Ed Davis having to brought in at the last minute to cover for him.And he cleaned up and was great again .So maybe in 1972 or 1973 there may have been a new Brian.

That's so hard to say. He wasn't much of a lead guitar player, didn't write songs, couldn't sing, or wouldn't. Others were surpassing him on slide. When was Brian still great? '65? That's a long way to come back from.
Brian played great flute in Paris 1967 live, so I have a hard time believing his musical skills were gone by 1969.
None of the members of the Stones were ever great. The power of the Stones was/is in the collective. Brian's important contribution (not so much as a guitarist) to the Stones went as far as 1968, which was confirmed by the other band members. He added a lot of color to the Mick/Keith songs. But yes, it became less and less.

No Stones were great? Keith was the greatest Chuck Berry interpreter of all time. Listen to Bill Wyman backing Junior Wells/Buddy Guy/and Muddy Waters at Montreaux in 1974. He's fantastic. Totally different from his Stones playing.

Re: If Brian could have gotten an American Visa
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 8, 2020 10:35

Quote
Taylor1
It was only a short period of time that Brianwas playing badly in the Stones,December1968until May 1969.Fromthe bootlegs I’ve heard ,he played fine on the 1967 tour.Marianne Faithful said he played great at the NME 1968 concert..Check out his playing on Ruby Tuesday’s the 1967 tour.And even though he wasn’t fully engaged on Beggar’sBanquet,his guitar onNo Expectaions,mellotron on JigsawPuzzle and Stray CatBlues,and sitar on Street Fighting Man is great.A lot of the opinion of how much he had deteriorated was based on his performance at the Rock n Roll Circus.But evenhis poor performance there can be attributed somewhat to him not going on stage until 300in the morning after doing drugs all day .Moreover ,I think he had lost interest in the band by 1969.But he didn’t lose his abilities as a musician.He could have rehabilitated himself had he lived.

To be a professional musician you need more than just prowess on an instrument. You need to be able to cope with band mechanics of artistic and narcissistic people, power struggles, stress, boredom, drugs, alcohol, too much money, woman, hangers-on, and everybody thinks your just utterly fantastic.

Brian just didn't have the personality to be a Rock and Roll star, and he wasn't alone in that.

Mathijs

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